How do you break it to someone that they're just not good enough?

KevinReijnders 2024-12-15 22:39:54 UTC #9

Damn, we also had to bring a portfolio, but we had to actually draw on the spot as well. So there was no way to actually cheat that way.

jwabeasley 2024-12-15 22:42:46 UTC #10

Heh, it's always those things about ourselves that are extremely obvious to anyone who's met us that are hardest to see about ourselves.

My day job is military intelligence analysis, and I can tell you that 70% of the guys I trained with weren't capable of doing it in more than a rote or basic capacity. A third of those couldn't analyze their way out of their own museum, if you take my meaning. Fortunately, after their initial contract, none of those people who were unsuited continued to do it, they all found some other career specialty.

Art school can be similar, although it's a pricey way of doing it. When I went to college for an art degree (before the military), the main thing I learned was that I lacked both the technical and social skills to hack it as an artist professionally. It took me the full 4 years to come to terms with it, despite it being immediately obvious in our first critique that the students who had a parent or relative in the industry already were way more skilled and capable. There were other students in my boat as well, though I don't know whether they saw the writing on the wall the way I did (a couple of them I know did not!). I worked my tail off to try to catch up, but I honestly didn't succeed.

If I'd had the technical and social skills I have now (10+ years later), perhaps I could have been successful at it. Ah, well.

All that is to say that eventually we figure it out and find some other career (I'm great at my day job, wish I'd known it was a career field when I was in HS/college) more suitable, or else keep failing at it for ages like Tom Preston. The first category will hear your critique, the second won't listen. Either way, it is painful.

It has been remarkably difficult to get good critiques online. I know my work isn't yet where I want it to be, and I'm past the point where well-known solutions and basic analysis can get me on my own.

moontokkym 2024-12-15 22:43:12 UTC #11

I've had to do it a couple of times. Not like "you're never going to make it" or anything that brash, but I've had people show me their work and ask if they're likely to get into the artschool I went to, which isn't the most selective but still requires some basics to get in, and I can tell they're immediately going to be rejected if they try this year. A friend of mine also had an intern who was in their final year of artschool and wanting to find a job as a junior concept artist later that year when they'd been taught litteraly no concept art skills or basics.

In the first case, they're directly asking my opinion, so I try and let them down gently because I've heard that "no" before and it's soulcrushing, especially because these nos usually happen when you're still a teen or early 20s and still learning go take professional criticism.

In the second case neither I nor my friend told the intern how big the gap between their current skills and the expectations of the job market were, my friend just tried to give them a crash course in concept art so they weren't going in with nothing, and said she'd be available for questions if the intern wanted.

I personally think unless you're asked directly or someone is asking the group for professional reasons, there's no good reason to give them a professional-standard answer, but even then there have still been times where I've had to say it and it sucks for everyone involved.

jwabeasley 2024-12-15 22:47:39 UTC #12

I remember someone 5 years junior to me who I tried to let down gently like that. It didn't work, and they managed to make a real wreck out of their life in the process. It was hard to watch.

moontokkym 2024-12-15 22:57:29 UTC #13

Usually the people who ask me are looking to enter my old school straight out of highschool, so they're 16-18 mostly (I got told I wasn't up to par at 16, worked hard and got in at 17 having substantially upped my game).

Meanwhile I graduated in 2021 so they're nearly 10 years my junior at this point and I no longer have any direct ties to the school, even the teachers I still have contact with left for better pay in video game studios (to give an idea of how bad the pay at that school was). I've not had anyone fully go off the rails yet to my knowledge because a lot of them are still with their parents and have help, or they can do what I did and keep practicing through the last years of highschool and get good enough. I have however seen a couple of older people in the "you're not really that good" category go completely off the rails for minor criticism of one drawing (that they asked for explicitly) because they felt they were being unfairly judged for not having gone to artschool (also going on a weird rant about "being discriminated for not being a queer woman who went to artschool" specifically for one of them, because he believed that only queer women who went to artschool get comic book deals these days), rather than not having basic understanding of 3D shapes... Which they didn't... And was the topic of the criticism.

cherrystark 2024-12-15 23:24:05 UTC #14

Honestly, unless a person specifically is asking for feedback or you're in a position where you are required to give feedback (teacher, judge, etc.) - keep your mouth shut. And if you do give feedback, it should be in a positive way that will help them improve. For everything else, don't spend your time or income on it.

I say this because 9 times out of 10, when people are wanting to show off their "art", they are looking for support. They might dance because it makes them happy. They may sing because it's how they worship or they enjoy the community that comes with singing in a choir. Everyone has a different reason for wanting to be creative, but as soon as someone tells them that they're not good enough - they'll stop doing it.

I've seen this happen a lot in my daily life. I stopped drawing for a few years because I showed a portrait I was really proud of to an art girl, who then proceeded to critique/criticize my work. Heck! I was at a networking event the other day and a guy started to criticize the examples I was using to show how a digital art tool worked to newer/inexperienced artists. I wasn't asking for critiques, I was just showing off some of my work.

Art is really subjective. I don't see a point in ruining someone else's happiness because I personally don't like a piece. I find it better to keep my opinions to myself.

NickRowler 2024-12-15 23:36:11 UTC #15

Why would you even have to tell someone they aren't good enough unless you are trying to hire them for a job.

There are a lot of people who aren't good enough to be professional but should have to freedom to be creative. That's how a lot of people get better and get to a pro status, they practice and keep at it. But there are people who just like the joy of creating stuff.

kyupol 2024-12-16 00:30:58 UTC #16

I took art fundamentals. They did an entry art test.
- draw a hand
- draw a bedroom
- draw your fruit of choice
- draw anything you want.

When I entered art fundamentals, my skill level was this:

A year later of art fundamentals...

As you can see, even with that improvement, still not good enough for animation program.
So I was told to study art more and try again in a couple years. But I ended up getting discouraged and just did something else.

So yes. Before entering any college level art program...

Your skill should be bare minimum this... (in my opinion correct me if I'm wrong)

Ideally this when you start art college...

And when you're done art college... this.

thepenmonster 2024-12-16 00:34:41 UTC #17

This is something artists downplay because a paining is supposed to be above something as pedestrian as carpentry, but both fields of education are teaching a trade. In fine arts that trade is selling tax evasion methods for rich people.

This.

My local art school, (NSCAD) used to require a portfolio and I assume they still do. Not to show how well you could draw something, but to show how willing and able you are to try and make all sorts of art. Obviously because one of those art forms could eventually make them a living.

I will say, if kids think "anime style" is unwelcome now, their application would have been binned immediately back in the day no matter how nice their watercolour of a big tiddy anime girl was.

jwabeasley 2024-12-16 00:42:29 UTC #18

In fine arts that trade is selling tax evasion methods for rich people.

Realizing that was what made me give up the art career goal!

jwabeasley 2024-12-16 00:49:00 UTC #19

As long as we're posting schoolwork, here's some of mine (same medium for easy comparison).

11th grade:

Mid-college:

This year:

Zhengo 2024-12-16 00:58:03 UTC #20

I'm only half joking about this, but you wrote a really long post with hypothetical scenarios and imagined backstories about a video maker you don't seem to know personally. And then went on a diatribe about "art schooling", which you seem to have not personally experienced. All that text to...I guess ask if and how we would tell someone if their skills suck? I wouldn't have pointed this out in any other post, but since the title is what it is...I'm wondering how to break it to you that you should be more succinct in the point of your discussion

On to the topic of discussion - If they ask me directly, then I will be honest about it, and provide my advice on how I think it can be improved, or if it's in a skill I'm not well-versed in, provide my critique clearly on specific parts that I think looks/sounds bad to me. Maybe it's because I've attended many art critique sessions where it's always made a point that a good critique is one that is specific and clear, highlighting parts of the art piece, and I personally do not find this critique exercise very hard. And I've used this principle in every critique I give out in both art and non-art related discord servers without having experienced any big grief or drama from the artist.

There's no "agonizing" on my part either as I just use the base minimum politeness of no insults or mocking. I guess the most I do to try to avoid hurt feelings is that I try to find some part of the piece that I like and also point it out to them as a compliment, but this isn't really me trying to avoid hurt feelings so much as I feel it is also important to point out the good parts as much as the bad parts. I think it gives them "guidance" on what their strengths are and can build upon them. If they are not aware of their current strengths, there is a good possibility that they might end up leaving it behind.

Obviously, if the critiques handed out are just a very vague "this looks bad", then no matter how polite you deliver that sentiment, it is not productive at all, dare I say it's a waste of time for you and the person asking for the critique. On the other hand, if the critique is clear and specific, then the base minimum amount of politeness is all that's needed.

DokiDokiTsuna 2024-12-16 01:46:58 UTC #21

1] The only 'hypothetical scenario' I came up with was one sentence asking why someone wouldn't be honest with a friend/family member about their lack of skill, and another sentence implying that my perspective of their skill level might be limited (which is less of a hypothetical and more of a truth of reality that needs to be addressed). All the rest was direct observations. =/ About multiple creators, by the way.

2] Although I have never been to an art school or taken university-level art courses myself, I personally know people who have. Just because I didn't write about them in the post doesn't mean I have no idea what I'm talking about.

3] I preface a lot of my posts with personal anecdotes and explanations of why I started thinking about the discussion question. I've written that way for literal years; "all that text" is basically my middle name, and I've never had cause to be ashamed of it before. I'm...pretty sure you've been around this forum long enough to know that. ._. Did it suddenly become a problem today...? No one's forcing you to read it all; replying directly to the parts you found relevant and ignoring the rest (without telling me...) is valid.

If you referenced the title for a reason, and you genuinely think verbosity indicates a lack of communication skill that needs to be pointed out to me, you could just...say that. I'd disagree, especially since it seems like you kinda just skimmed over most of what I wrote (i.e. 'too many words' =/= irrelevant information) but I'd prefer it to you making inaccurate judgements about what you think I said, without actually knowing what I said.

...This really doesn't feel like a joke, tbh. Not even 'half' a joke.

EncryptedWriting 2024-12-16 04:50:27 UTC #22

Now this is interesting. I majored in public health and a minor in bio, and while it is okay to not know some material at the start, it's the idea that fundamentals build off of another. So, if you dont grasp the inital concepts, then you can't build off of them.

The same goes for art, I assume. If you don't grasp thise fundamentals, then there is no point in learning further on because you don't understand the basics anyway.

BoomerZ 2024-12-16 05:10:48 UTC #23

It would be like going to college to learn to read then using that skill of reading to learn your major. It's a lot easier if you show up knowing how to read.

lizardlullabye 2024-12-16 06:22:26 UTC #24

Ah, . . . short answer is that you do should not tell someone they are "not good enough".
That specifically vague phrase can hurt a lot because it "can" be interpreted as depressively negative.

good enough for what? for who? for forever?

Assuming the artist asked for critque & feedback, perhaps just make sure you are "specific" when you share your observations/ thoughts. The artist can judge what they want to do:

Keep in mind that you do NOT know what the artist is trying to do, unless they have shared. For example, you might think the artist is trying to draw a cool national geographic dinosuar while they are actually attempting to draw a mutant chicken nugget. Any critque or communication starting on wrong assumptions will likely end up in a frustrating misunderstanding.
Neutrally share what "you" are interpreting / observing. The artist is likely seeing it in a different perspective. For example, despite the artist's best efforts of one chicken nugget, you shared seeing a dinosuar with sparkly eyes and scales.
This might imply that artist's current skill is not working out with what they are trying to do. In the case of chicken nugget example, there's a difference between what is shared and what the artist wants to share. BUT they can try again and hopefully get better/ more skilled later.

Lensing 2024-12-16 07:31:23 UTC #25

You don´t break it to someone and you don´t even think about it because it´s none of your business

llobucervallince 2024-12-16 11:03:45 UTC #26

Is... is there something you want to tell me?

GothickangelStudios 2024-12-16 15:17:46 UTC #27

I went to art for collage, did graphic design, interactive media, website design etc, they didn't do any testing.
Where I am in Canada as long as you had your grade 12 highschool (or grade 13 in that era) diploma it was fine. And could read and write english fluenty, you were set. Didn't even need to show them an art portfolio.
I took art as my major in highschool. Did animation, website design, desktop publishing (90s era) and illustration. But all they cared about was if had my diploma.
It was more for theory based courses like science, math, history, etc. That had pretesting in college.

Zhengo 2024-12-16 15:20:29 UTC #28

Just for the record, I did read the whole post I actually originally wrote a longer thing about imagining yourself as the casting director and then a whole paragraph wondering if anyone in their life actually told them or if they'll find out in 5-10 years or if they're just off key in their videos, when it could've been a "I wonder if anyone actually told them", but felt like it was detracting too much from discussion.

Genuinely, I apologize if that offended you, frankly I just thought it felt a little uncomfortable that your example seemed to be of someone that you don't even know for sure if they've been made aware of their flaws. Posting a less than good video of their singing or trying auditions doesn't indicate that they're sheltered from opinions, just that they're ambitious enough to want to try anyway.

Since you also brought up the art school thing, I only called that out because your statement seemed quite "broad strokes" and seemed to miss the real reason why art degree majors can have below professional skills: wide variation of quality and teaching philosophy across art programs. In my, admittedly only 2.5 years experience, with art and design in college, a good art program will have professors that will definitely give you a big roast and won't leave you naive to your own lack of skill, and your grades will also reflect that. People have failed and had to repeat courses. The sad thing is, there are a lot of art schools that are basically just degree mills and won't even teach you the "potential" of becoming good. It is harder to detect than say, science schools because in science, there's a clear right or wrong answer to things.

All of this was what I thought about reading the post, but at that time I figured it wasn't that relevant to the discussion so I didn't expand on this at the time and wanted to keep my feeling on that light. I much more wanted to tackle the actual question in the title, which seemed to be a question on how to make someone aware of their lack of skill.