How do you keep this feeling for all your projects?

IndigoShirtProd 2020-07-07 01:55:37 UTC #2

Yup! All the time. My mindset for my dramatic, adult content filled novel is not going to be the same for my lighthearted general audience friendly comic. The thing is that most all of my projects have little to no overlap with one another in terms of premise or genre, so I don't have a hard time switch because it's so drastically different. I'm not confusing ideas and feelings for one project with another because there to little substance to do with the other. You can view Drachenseele as your next big project if that helps you give the time it deserves. Funnily enough, The Black Belt Society is now my "main" project, because I'm spending the most time on it, but technically it's still a side project to my previous "main" project I haven't looked at for about a year now. I dropped it to focus on BBS, but it's still the most involved and longest running project idea that I have. And since then, I revisited older ideas, came up with new ones. I don't think you should give much credence to one project specifically for doing all the things you want it to. Each project will only go so far and reach so many. At the very least treat each endeavor as a learning experience. There is always something to be gained even if the completed project (or incomplete) didn't meet all of your expectations.

AVXP 2020-07-07 02:48:07 UTC #3

What makes this a failure?
I tried to see what this was - and it looks like 5 large pages.
Is that whole comic just the 5 episodes or pages here??
Aside from the prologue and final message, is that everything?

Seems like you had a ton of encouragement and momentum back in January.

What happened?

Kelheor 2020-07-07 02:51:50 UTC #4

I guess for me the thing with the big project is not looking at it as a big project. It's just a project, and it's not the only and last big thing you'll ever make. Even if it is in the end, thinking you will make more kinda helps
Of course I, too, consider another short project more of a fun side things that in the end become learning experience.
You just learn to take small steps and try not to beat yourself about this page or that panel that doesn't look as good.
So yeah, your big project is just a next project in the sequence of your projects, it's just happens to be longer than other ones

aqua03 2020-07-07 03:02:50 UTC #5

Kind of a long story, actually... The main thing being I didn't really properly plan things out and ended up working myself to exhaustion and the breaking point multiple times trying to make all the pieces fit together in that manner and I eventually decided to end it for my own mental and physical health given that I had worked myself to multiple breakdowns working on DRAGOONS/DRGN trying to get it to a "Perfect" state that I had built up in my head from the decade of work I had put into it if that makes sense.

AVXP 2020-07-07 05:40:53 UTC #6

No, it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't have to.
All I have seen, is you ask for LOTS of help fleshing out this series and wanting support and encouragement.
If I remember correctly, you wanted feedback and suggestions (I could be wrong and have you mixed up with another poster). So with all that, you can still be unsatisfied with your progress or output-so what can one more post trying to push you forward do?

It's a waste to tell you "don't worry, keep going!- stay strong!!!!"

It shouldn't take daily affirmations to make a webcomic.
Other people are struggling with much more serious challenges than their art.

Feel blessed and lucky that THIS is your major stumbling block.

All I can say other than that, is to tell you my thoughts - and a perspective from someone (probably) older.
When I look back at my life, I only regret the things I didn't pursue 110%.
Most things that I have wanted, I have gone after, so it's all gravy, BUT -

There are things that I was into that I played around with. Comics was one of them.
I wished, when I had the comics making bug that I created EVERYTHING that came across my brain.
You never know what you will revisit later on.
This may all be version 1.0 and who knows, if in 5 years, you'll re-visit all this material again.
Or 10 years or 20....
Or if you'll want to present these stories in another format.

The goal should be to make it as good as you can in the year you're living in.
It's not you versus someone else (or their art, or story, or popularity or, or....)
It's you versus YOU.

You are the first person you need to defeat to get your work(s) into existence.
Endless distractions, small voices of doubt, setbacks, health challenges, life issues, work, time management- on and on...there are enough real challenges to deal with.....
No need to add on ------- self-created ones.

Lots of things that End up GREAT did not start out great.
You'll never know what something can grow into if it's always stopped from maturing.
Everything eats baby alligators. lol

I say you need to learn how to get out of your own way.
Your first match doesn't have to be for the championship.

Perfection is a thing to strive for, not the entry bar for participating.
Go make some comics and tell all those silly voices- you're too busy making art to listen.

darthmongoose 2020-07-07 08:02:34 UTC #7

Excellent advice from @AVXP and @Kelheor there.

There comes a point where you really just have to go "screw it. I'll work out the rest as I go along." I did a fair bit of beforehand planning on Errant, but by the time I finished the prologue, a lot of script details for later chapters had changed, the thumbnails and script for the prologue changed as I was making it, and it's not out of the question that I'd redraw parts of some pages if/when I make a printed version because the style on the first page, which I treated almost like a sort of style test, doesn't really look like the other pages.

Webcomics are weird because you're often effectively publishing the first draft, or even if the chapter has had time for revision, it's still kind of the first draft of the overall story and often has issues with pacing, themes, setup and payoff. It'll almost certainly have imperfections. Homestuck is my fave webcomic ever, I just don't shut up about Homestuck and I could talk about it literally for hours... but it's so flawed! There are tons of dropped plot threads, or characters or concepts that get introduced only to actually have no significance, while other bits of foreshadowing, setup, payoff or repeating themes are done masterfully.
If I can adore Homestuck this much, even though there are so many bits in it where I'm actually frustrated by how many things it sets up and fails to resolve, and how "poor" a lot of people call the simple, stylised art... well, I like to think people will at least give me a little of the same leeway. Hell, lots of people love Harry Potter or Star Wars and those are both riddled with plotholes, inconsistencies and things that don't quite work, just loads of them!

Does the opening of Errant kinda drag more than I'd like? Yes. Yes, it does. Does the art look awkward sometimes? Yeah, definitely! But if I worried about that instead of getting updates done, I wouldn't have made 42 updates made up of over 50 pages so far. It's not perfect, but I wouldn't trade 55 pages of an imperfect comic for considerably fewer or perhaps even no pages at all of a hypothetical perfect comic!

nathanKmcwilliams 2020-07-07 17:29:42 UTC #8

Look...I'll be blunt. This is a cycle you've repeated at least once or twice in the times I've seen you on the forums. (Including in a private chat, and we all remember how that went.)

At what point do you think someone will say some magic phrase that makes it all come together for you? How many people have to write essays on creativity for you?

People have given you loads and loads of support, and good advice in every single thread you've made about this subject.

I don't want to be the person that gets in the way of your dreams or says "you can't do it." But...if you keep repeating this cycle of searching out advice that makes you feel good and affirms your desire to create...then you're creating for all the wrong reasons. You won't make it, because you won't start.

My suggestion is take a hard look on whether or not this Drachensheele\DRGN\Dragoons is something worth the time.

In your own opening post, you said you "just get burnt out, sad, and don't want to work on it anymore"

Uh ... That should be your own wake up call. If it makes you so sad and unhappy...the sane thing would be to STOP DOING SAID THING. At least for the foreseeable future.

But you also said, that you really enjoyed working on the one-shot right? I suggest putting all your creative love into that and seeing what blossoms from it.

Take what you want from what I said. I really don't care, but it frustrates me to see all the people who have given you good advice, have wasted their time and effort typing and pondering their statements. This forum is filled with intelligent and caring people, maybe take a look back at all of your previous threads before making a new one next time. I'm sure some of the advice will still ring true now.

At the end of the day, your creative endeavors are your own choice. I really hope you find your way, I really do, but the only person who can make that decision is you.

aqua03 2020-07-07 18:57:12 UTC #9

Yeah, I guess that makes sense when you put it like that. I actually have decided to put Drachenseele on hold for a while until my one shot is done both so I don't spread myself too thin and see how I feel just letting it rest and coming back to see how it feels.

I guess another thing that's keeping me from actually swallowing my pride and just doing Drachenseele is that I think I might be too attached to my characters that I'm afraid of putting them out there for fear that some people won't like them if they aren't "Perfect" (Kind of I guess like those people who fuss over the clothes and appearance to try to get the "Perfect" look before they step out for the day if that metaphor makes sense.)

I guess maybe the best comparison also would be my attachment to my characters and story could be comparable to your passion about Rip and Dragon Sparking if I am to be so bold to make that statement. Just kinda that one story and characters that we've kept kicking around in our heads since our childhood-early teens. Only differences is that you actually worked up the courage to finally settle on a solid enough idea and pulling the trigger even if it isn't perfect, (Heck, you've changed art styles halfway through the comic and are thinking of changing them again, correct?)

I do want to tell a story with the Dragoons, because I genuinely do love them as characters and want to share them with the others, I guess it just doesn't feel like I'm quite "Ready" yet for the big time and that mindset of waiting for the perfect time to be "ready" isn't something that is healthy for me and just continually keeping my characters in incubation like that is only gonna make things worse in that regard. Given how far I've come in regards to my stuff in general like my work on the one shot and how that's been a really positive experience for me creativity wise, I do feel like I'm actually nearing a breakthrough in my creative process regarding everything.

Just feel I need to finally get over this hurdle of "No!!! Little Tommy's not ready yet! He has one atom out of place!" I seem to be having with the Dragoons.

To quote a writing friend I have on reddit, "Forget what that ketamine addicted green frog jerk Yoda said. All you can do at the end of the day is try. Flaws are what make us human.

Thanks for the feedback. I think I will try to look back in the past threads I've made and see if there's anything I can re-learn form them in that newer context.

Thanks again for the help.

nathanKmcwilliams 2020-07-07 19:18:39 UTC #10

If there's one thing I learned is that time changes our views on stories. I put aside DS for a few years to work on t-shirt designs and working commissions for musicians. I still had ideas for DS in the background, but I did put it on a break for a while. If I hadn't of done that, I might still be spinning my wheels.

I've never felt ready for the big time. The only difference is I didn't let my fears stop me. I still have them. They never go away, but they don't rule me. I know not everyone can work the way I do...but I still believe that the only way to defeat them is to confront and deny them by putting pen to paper and going on even if they tell me I'll fail.

You aren't the first or only person to deal with this kind of anxiety. But definitely go back through your threads. You'll see that others have had the same issues, and overcame them. Just...really read them. Don't skim over them. Especially the ones that have a similar feel to what you've experienced.

Again, I hope you figure it out.

aqua03 2020-07-07 20:23:04 UTC #11

Thanks for the encouragement, I get that. I've been doing something similar to that for Drachenseele. Putting it to the wayside but occasionally jotting down ideas while i focus on my one shot and other projects. Maybe i might let it rest even longer instead of immediately picking it back up after I'm done with my one shot like I originally planned. Maybe do a few more one shots in the meantime to practice my craft and exercise my creative muscles a bit more instead of just having Drachenseele/Dragoons/DRGN constantly eat up so much of my mental and creative energy 100% of the time like it has in the past. That's kind of unhealthy and has caused me to kind of lose my ability to enjoy things without constantly analyzing them on how to copy their elements to bolster my story.

Guess the main fear I need to conquer is how much emphasis I put on getting the approval of others as I write instead of just writing something that I think is good and enjoyable on its own. That seems to be the main thing that keeps coming up that's stopping me and causing me to freak out and burn out on my works.

I definitely will go back and read prior spots more clearly as well and especially look for those who struggled with similar feelings that I did. Thanks again. I'm sure will figure it out soon enough.

eyewhiskers 2020-07-07 20:33:51 UTC #13

Why don’t you take a stab at writing a novel for your story and Commissioning an artist to do the cover? A single piece of art would be a lot cheaper than commissioning a whole comic.

nathanKmcwilliams 2020-07-07 20:34:13 UTC #14

Yes, (the quote function doesn't work well on my phone) creating for yourself and not others is probably the most important mindset to have.

I'll add that, DS was never something that caused me sadness or depression. It was always something I could go to, to find release from the stresses of life.
Even when I wasn't focusing on it, my favorite thing to do was go on walks outside and verbally construct story arcs. I always came at it from a fun perspective. Dragon Sparking's various worlds were a healing place, not a hurting one.

This is why it worries me to see you say your creation depresses you. If it's hurting you, letting it go (not forever) for a while is probably a good thing.

Obviously, not every moment of working on the comic has been stress free, but those painful moments come from outside sources, not the story itself. Like deadlines, or life getting in the way.

aqua03 2020-07-07 21:33:15 UTC #15

Thanks. Yeah, I think the main cause of the "depression" that comes from working on projects involving the Dragoons is the impossibly high standards I put on myself combined with the often short time frames I put myself under as well, kind of combines into me burning out quicker in that regard.

Guess I also have a (probably irrational) fear of disappointing all the people here who have been encouraging me in regards to getting excited for Drachenseele that I don't want to produce a seemingly "Subpar" product in that regard. Might just kind of tie in to the above mentioned pressure and standards to gain people's approval instead of just producing a product that I like and can stand by no matter what the current quality is in. I mean, once you hit rock bottom, there's nowhere else to go but up.

I think I will let go of project for a bit (Ironically enough, the main theme of Drachenseele is gonna be "Moving on and letting go") and just do a bit more soul searching to figure out just what is is exactly that I want out of my project and how to get there from here in a healthy and safe manner. I'll play it by ear and see how i feel in the future.

aqua03 2020-07-12 19:26:34 UTC #16

I've been doing a bit of thinking about Drachenseele recently, and I think I realized the main problem I have with projects involving the Dragoons and their cast and world compared to other projects like EGT or my one shot: Part of me feels that I won't be able to do those specific characters and story justice.... Ever since I've come up with with those characters back in 2011, I had being plans for them to become a successful genre-defining mega-franchise like the things and people that inspired me like Bionicle, PIXAR, or Osamu Tezuka. Even though I've swallowed that pill that I probably won't be that big right out of the gate since then and have squashed a lot of my perfectionist habits over the past few months, it still kinda creeps back in when working with the Dragoons and their friends because of how attached and protective of them I've become. basically ,I keep feeling that "I know I'm not gonna be perfect, and that's okay. But these characters deserve the best. The best that I simply cannot offer...." If that makes sense. I don't really trust my own creative decisions and abilities in regards to them for some reason and am always afraid to do anything "risky" for them for fear that it would make these characters I love os much seem "flawed" or otherwise just not up to the impossibly high standards I want for them in a way. (Like more dynamic art/poses or more elaborate backgrounds than the usual abstract backgrounds I do for my art with them.) I know that's probably a silly thought to have and I've been working on nipping it in the bud, but it still keeps creeping back in for one reason or another with the Dragoons.

Which is also weird considering I'm also far more comfortable when they're the side characters in someone else's story like an RP or something where the other writers are doing the heavy lifting whereas I can just go along with the ride with my characters and not worry about the story and character department as much.

I recently realized that feeling when I came up with a completely new character for a fun side thing whose backstory and powers were basically the same thing as Drachenseele in everything but name and cast/coming up with a completely orignal cast for Drachenseele instead of retro fitting the Dragoons into the new world I created, and I was super thrilled by that and wanted to leap right in to that world and transfer one or two of my old characters into it, only for these feelings of "Not being a good enough creator for your own beloved characters" start coming right back.

How do I combat the feeling i have regarding the Dragoons of being too attached to them that you're afraid of actually just making a story and putting them out there improving as you go? Is that a sign that I should just drop the Dragoons altogether and just move on? Because I do genuinely love and stand by the new setting of Drachenseele and want to tell a story in that world, I'm just not sure that the Dragoons will ever be the right fit, so I'm debating of just having them remain as my mascots due to how oddly attached and protective I've been regarding them and how that's been hindering me finally pulling the trigger on making a good comic with them.

Rhonder 2020-07-12 20:48:19 UTC #17

This ties in pretty well to what I was going to say regarding the OP- One thing that resonated with me based on my recent experiences is the feeling of fun with working on the one-shot vs. the feeling of stress when working on the longer series.

A big part of that may just be the relative levels of commitment involved tbh. It's way easier to commit to decisions and say "that's fine" when working on a short project because nothing will have long-term ramifications- it's a short project. When trying to work out all the kinks in a long project though, there's an inherent pressure to make sure things are worked out to an acceptable degree before locking in because you're committing to those decisions for the long haul.

I've been going through this recently on the project I've just started back up after pulling it off the back burner- I've been conceptualizing and writing down ideas for this series for a year or two already, so I was initially thinking "yeah! I'll just like work out a few more things and get started soon!" But I've had to slow my roll a little bit because I quickly realized "oh crap, if I just commit to starting right away without working through some of the ideas more, I'll be locked into those decisions!", which was a big part of the reason I dropped the "Season 2" plan for my one shot lol. I was way too slapdash while doing the world building for that comic since it was just intended to be a short thing so when I tried to extend that beyond the scope of the one-shot i realized it just wasn't going to work as well as I had hoped.

So, going back to the part that I quoted, you may well just benefit from extending your time frame- significantly. Trying to rush into a long-term commitment is a recipe for trouble and is very likely adding extra stress that you just... don't need to add on top of what you're already dealing with. If you're going to write a long series, give it the time it deserves up front in the planning, writing, and design phases. Don't feel pressure to start right away. Slow your roll~

That's a nice long-term goal (dream big!), but setting your sights on that level of success out the gate is frankly setting yourself up for disappointment. You gotta just worry about doing the best you can do in the here and now and not worry about competing with mega successful professional studios.

This is just one person's biased opinion, but I would say "yes". Deffu agree with @nathanKmcwilliams in that I've hung around the forums to see you go through these same cycles of self doubt and creative paralysis through now 3 iterations of these characters (I remember back to the DRGN days xD) and think it may do you some good to try something different.... because what you've been doing so far doesn't seem to be working.

I was in the same place a few years back- my first Tapas comic was actually supposed to be the umpteenth reboot of my OG mega story called "Konguki"- I was going to complete the whole first chapter to post up front, and then switch to a weekly schedule afterwards. I had similarly put a decade of work into it, in some form or another. Most of it theory crafting in my mind, refining the characters over the years, etc. Finally I realized both that project (and consequentially the characters) were holding me back creatively. Of course they're not gone- I still like to revisit and draw them from time to time, and think about them in their original story. But being able to move on to new characters and new stories has been huge for my growth.

Try making some new characters for the new story and see where that goes. At least give yourself the freedom to try it out, anyways.

aqua03 2020-07-12 21:40:00 UTC #18

Yeah, i think you might have hit the nail on the head with all of that. I think I have just been setting my goals too high right out of the gate has set me up for failure a lot with my previous attempts. Especially in regards to that creative paralysis I keep struggling with whenever I work with these characters.

I know I was planning on coming up with some new characters and stories as I've step back from the Dragoons and see how I feel while I finish up my one shot as well. Mostly just to see how that feels to me going forward. Maybe even fiddle with a new idea for characters for Drachenseele as well given how much I love that setting as well. Hopefully that'll help kick me out of my funk more as well. Who knows? Might revive my interest in my own characters as well.

Still will probably keep the Dragoons around as well. Especially since Selena and her friends have kind of become my "mascots" of sorts like Mickey Mouse and friends. Probably will also draw them from time to time like you do as well, though probably they won't be my main focus anymore. At least not for a very long time, anyway....

Kelheor 2020-07-13 02:59:11 UTC #19

Okay, serious question then, and I think it's really important to meditate on it for you. You always saying that you are afraid you'll never do them justice (and I understand the feeling). What I want to ask is do you even know what will? What level of awesomeness should you be to do it properly? What comic is the closest to your vision of this particular project? Is it Blacksad? Nonplayer? Gantz?
Are your level any close? If not, then you'll never leave the idea of how you're not doing them justice.
You can either sit and try to become close to this level or understand that you won't be there any time soon and start with what you have. Maybe you'll need a few iterations of the same story for it to become closer to what you want it to be.
But maybe you don't actually need it as a full story, as a comic. Do what all the people who don't draw comics do - draw the artworks, occasionally think and write down something. Most of my characters are 16 years old now and only now I've started to think I can finally draw them the way I finally enjoy them and other people can appreciate them too.
If you're fine with the fact it can take you another 20 years just to start a comic with these characters, well maybe that's the plan. Just remember this feeling never really goes away, they will probably always be these precious babies, too pure for this world.
But if the project is causing you depression, it's probably not what you need in your life.

rajillustration 2020-07-13 04:33:23 UTC #20

You put so much pressure on yourself, but it's OK that this is taking a while. It makes sense that you don't know the final form of Dragoon yet. It makes sense that you don't know what the characters are doing--because it hasn't been fully written. There's a lot of pressure on webcomic artists, especially younger artists, to post as soon and prolifically as possible to get those numbers, but often, it's before they really have any idea of what the final form should be.

I was told once to make one year's worth of content before I ever start posting. Which sounds nuts...but there's some validity to that.

Final forms take time. They take a lot of drafts. Stories live a lot of lives and shapes and different experimental ideas before they hit that "one years of content" marker, and people don't usually see that part of the process. Fantasy stories that are long form and complicated take...a lot of prep work, and we really don't talk about the realistic time frame of how long it takes to do that prep when you're the only one creating it. It should take a long time. That's fine. No need to compare yourself to Stephen King pushing out a billion books in his lifetime. We're all different writers and also a lot of his books are bad.

I've been writing stories my whole life, but of the ones I've put on here, I started writing Alchemist Burnouts in 2009 during my last semester of college and then I just shelved the thing for 6 years because I did not know what I wanted it to be. I started writing Avu in 1996 (it was how I learned to type) but I shelved it because I was really bad at writing and then didn't pick it up again until 2007 when I went through a really bad relationship and realized how to write a character I had never known how to write before.

Did you know the story I wrote for the short story contest that I just published was one that I started writing about 2 years ago? It's only 5 episodes. But it took that long for it to finally click in my mind "oh, this is what I want to say"

And after I had the idea two years ago, it wasn't until a year ago that it clicked. I was watching someone else's apartment in San Fransisco alone, and I was walking in the city, around all these distinct buildings, feeling distant and small and frustrated because it was an area I had grown up around but had felt no connection with anymore. There was this fog that rolled in so all I could see was the water below the golden gate and nothing else...and suddenly it just came together. The whole setting of the comic, the whole vibe, everything I wanted to say. I saw what I wanted the comic to be and drew out some concept art...And then I didn't draw it...for another year. Not until Covid hit and I needed to get out some feelings.

I know it's frustrating, but the trick is to just keep writing different stories when one is just...not coming together. Sometimes stories come quickly...other times they do not. Sometimes they create in bursts, other times they just...don't.

But you don't want it to ever get to this pressure point--and in way making all these threads is putting perceived expectations on this comic--like we'll be happy for you no matter what you decide if you continue Dragoons or don't--so long as you decide something. But, because it was ever brought up, I feel like you're concerned about how we, the people of this forum, might perceive it. Honestly--we'll be fine. You'll be fine. It will be fine. But, if you try and push out a story before it's ready, then it will only be formulaic. Which, is fine and appealing in it's own way (formula stories are fun), but clearly isn't...what you want since this is a story that means a lot to you.

And when it comes to creative paralysis, I get you--I get how that feels. For the past 3 (4?) weeks I've been under a colossal amount of pressure, and it's been so bad that I wasn't able to really draw until...2 days ago. The way of getting out of that wasn't by drawing more and pushing through the pain. Honestly it was by doctor prescribed self care that has nothing to do with art, honestly, and everything to do with my own personal struggles with anxiety and depression. It's good to step away sometimes, and it can feel like "my god, I am giving up art, I am never coming back from this" but...you will. You'll get through it. You just gotta step away sometimes and let life write your stories for you for a while.

aqua03 2020-07-13 18:07:08 UTC #21

@Kelheor @rajillustration

I see. Thank you both for the in depth feedback and encouragement. I think maybe one of the main things that's been paralyzing be about the Dragoons is this feeling of "It's gotta be your next big thing, it needs to get done ASAP, and it's gotta be perfect!" that's been lingering in my mind since 2011. I've noticed that since I noticed that mind set and have been working on getting rid of it and trying to view Drachenseele and Dragoons as less of my "Creative destiny" that's set in stone as the big project I need to get done and out of the way as soon as possible before I move on to other projects. Instead, I probably should be viewing as just another possible stepping stone on my creative journey if that makes sense.

I think I'll do what @nathanKmcwilliams and many others have recommend and just step back a bit from those characters and world and focus on something else like maybe another one shot or two and come back with a fresh perspective to see how I feel about them later.

DukeOfOool 2020-07-13 18:29:10 UTC #22

I follow the rules of sketching; once done it's done, well not completely, I'm currently reworking every chapter I haven't published yet, but once published it's out there and will NEVER be changed, unless I have a very specific plan for it.

While working I'm in a constante state of building the world of my story and burning it down, cutting it back into usable form. This ever-evolving mesh of ideas is only fixated by publishing. I see my story as an organism that doesn't need to be perfect, each imperfection has it's own charm. Then take a small bit of my story and decide to show it to the world. I know the seven gorillions of lore and background won't be used in the near futur, but with each step I take, telling another story in the same universe will get easier. In this way I can slowly build up my grand epic without trowing myself down this inpossible pit of work.

Basically I writte everything like a short story, nothing makes sense, everything is super open ended and magically fits onto the last chapter. I could stop my story right there and it will make about as much sense as at the end.