I don’t understand NSFW discourse

[akitsukino]

I keep seeing it and I can’t say I completely understand. I’ll see people say “it’s just fiction! Fiction doesn’t effect reality!” I’ll see this all the time for erotica but I’ll usually not see them say the same thing about about things like racist portrayals ex. blackface ( well I do see people say it, but not usually the SAME people). If people really believed that nothing in fiction ever effected reality wouldn’t that make most of the conversations we’ve had about representation irrelevant? I’ll also see things like “l don’t mind this in fanfic but it would be weird in something mainstream.” Or “This is fine in erotica, but I wouldn’t want to see it a regular romance novel.” I don’t know if I get that one either.

I’ll see people praise the positives in fiction all the time and say “this story made me cry, this story inspired me to take this job, this story helped me come out” but when it comes to discussing the negatives in fiction it feels like people either clam up or try to explain it away (ex. “Fetishes don’t hurt people the way racism does!”). I do think discussions of media and fiction are important, especially to artists, but I don’t really make or consume a lot if the media that comes up in these convos so I feel little out of the loop. If anyone has any insight into some of this or deeper perspectives to look into I’d appreciate it.

[Ordinaryaverageguy]

Fiction doesn’t effect reality!

I'm not sure that is entirely true at all. Didn't stories of flying fuel the desire to fly & the invention of aircraft? Didn't scifi stories about exploring space inspire the people who later invented the rocket & other tech needed? I swear the cell phone was inspired by Star Treks flip open communicator. Maybe I'm missing the sense they meant in that assertion?

“Fetishes don’t hurt people the way racism does!”)

I think that, too, isn't entirely accurate, or at least is only true in a certain context. What people DO about their fetishes is just a crucial as what people do about their racism. I think one can struggle with both of those internally but still deal with people in ways that don't show them. Perhaps more important than how one feels inside is how one acts with the world outside. The one is a personal problem whereas the other becomes public disharmony. In that sense, I guess fiction or NSFW content in fiction might not affect people IF it remains in print only & doesn't start "leaking out of us" & onto other people.

It might be that you're not understanding it because people in general don't understand it. And everyone has an opinion, whether or not it's a particularly well-thought-out one or not.

[RedLenai]

I believe the problem (As someone who works with fiction and has done NSFW equally) is not the fact that we can or not criticize fictional works regarding it's content. NSFW works that are oriented to the sexual appeal are, in fact, not oriented to be part of a big impact into the real world compared to representation, racism and other things.
But why would you ask? A lot of people have fantasies, fantasies don't necessarily mean that you want said things experienced in real life, with a real partner or partners, fetishes especially the ones that are either written or drawn are nothing but products that can be consumed by an individual that doesn't necessarily want to express nor needs to express it themselves. Meanwhile, racist portrayals, blackface, representation, Racial or LGBT stereotypes, social problems, economy status and other things... are way more realistic, and these topics can influence people in greater ways than a fantasize that has always been treated as something that has to be kept in secret and not be talked about, a taboo.

To put an example, many people love and adore stories like in Omegaverse, where instincts are excuses for non-consensual situations, power dominance, abuse of sub-genders, feminization, male pregnancy, and other things. However, rape, unplanned pregnancies, to dominate or be dominated, is not something that readers of said content want for themselves nor their partners, they don't want to be disrespected on bed or be treated brutally.

And that is the real problem with NSFW, people would assume the worst the second you mention or make content regarding a prompt or kink, indepedently if you actually like it, was a request/paid work or even practice.

Whenever I hear someone saying that "Fiction doesn't affect reality" or "Fiction does affect reality" I believe it is a projection of the person that is making that statement. You expose how influential you are the moment you make those arguments, or how terrified you are about the idea that a certain content that you do not consume may influence you in a way that you consider negative or "your worst outcome" which is totally fine but shouldn't be projected on others in a way that you in order to feel clean, have to demonize other people.

As well, I noticed that even when it comes to fights about racism, discrimination, and other similar topics the way people discuss is not as bad as when it comes to NSFW? Because whenever someone doesn't agree to the "better moral" the other person is approached with doxxing, suicide threats, assumptions of their sex/gender/identity, the word "virgin" being weaponized in a negative way contradicting the fact that we should pressure people to sexual intercourse or condemn them based on their libido and such. Actually, yeah, even if in the other controversies there is a lot of contradiction and hipocresy, I believe when it comes to NSFW is way more noticeable.

I may have stopped doing NSFW, probably like 2 years ago or something but I still receive some threats or insults through my DMs, and I have participated on controversies such as "whitewashing, pastels and harassement" or "Art theft done by a caucasian feminist from Argentina", so that kind of tells what actually triggers people the most, independently of their opinion.

[Pony_wearing_a_hat]

What I generally think is that while just presenting anything within a work does not in itself affect reality, messages do. If a creator depicts say, a decapitation in their work (broad example, I know) and someone sees that and thinks "That looks like a thing I should replicate in real life" that's on that consumer, not the author. If the author, in the work, argues the point that decapitation is a good thing people should do, that's different.

This is why I think most porn/erotica can depict things you can't actually do to people in real life, because people don't come to porn for viewpoints, they come to to... well... you know... most porn doesn't have a message, and unlike most writing, that's a good thing. It's written for a purpose and it does that, and that's fine. Plus if a particular fetish/kink is not ethically reliable in real life, then it's existence is another way for people with those fetishes/kinks to ... well... you know...

Basically I think what's important is that:

A. the work is upfront from the beginning about what fetishes/kinks are depicted, "Dead Dove, Do Not Eat" as they say over on Ao3

B. There is no message in the work, or if there is it is unrelated to the fetish/kink

A disclaimer and warning that it should not be replicated in the real world is always a classy touch as well.

[Mallory]

I think @Pony_wearing_a_hat nails it. Fiction does affect people's perceptions of reality and therefore it affects reality, BUT it only does so in cases where the audience's mind is primed to be affected (such as with either a pre-existing bias (which fuels most discourse surrounding unintentionally racist incidents), or an author's intentional attempt at influencing the opinions of its readers via messaging (such as the attempts at "books" written by some of the authors from the Sad Puppies movement from the Hugos a while back)). People usually drop their guard when they're consuming content since they have to do so in order to engage in suspension of disbelief, to some extent. That's why fiction can be pretty powerful.

People do not come to porny content for any reason beyond the physical though, so I don't think they're "primed" to absorb any alternative perspective from the porny content, nor do they really need to suspend their disbelief. I guess you could argue that it could reinforce preexisting biases but it would probably be true regardless of what content they were consuming, and therefore the existence of the content in question matters a lot less.

[Lensing]

I believe that fiction affects reality / can affect reality.
But I also believe in Kunstfreiheit / artistic freedom.

It´s something i think about as a consumer and as a creator
and I try to be responsible but you can be responsible as much
as you want, you can still influence someone in a negative way
or a positive way

[UrMom]

Fiction affecting reality is a grey topic. Yeah, it can, but it doesn't always affect reality in the way people say it will. A violent film or video game can very well inspire someone to go on a murder spree, but normally those kinds of people are already on the road to doing something like that. Plus it's really rare, most people don't become killers after watching a horror film or play CoD. Jaws inspired a new wave of fear of sharks in people, showing an increase in shark deaths around that time, but in that era people still understood very little about sharks and didn't know they weren't the mindless killing machines that Jaws portrayed them as. If that film were made today it would probably fall in with other terribad shark movies like Sharknado.

When it comes to sexual fiction, it really depends on the person, but there are some nuances to it's use. There is some correlation between kinks, porn and trauma. When it comes to fetishy/kink art and fiction there is a chance this is a person working through trauma, I've met a few women in my time who make kinky SA art as a way to deal with their own SA. Similar things can be said for people in the BDSM community, they work through their trauma in a (usually) safe environment, having full control of the situation via safewords and safegestures.
Art/fiction can actually be a pretty good way to work through things depending on the person, it's like a type of exposure therapy, you're in full control of how far you're willing to go and when to stop. There are a few Psychology articles on the subjects that I find pretty interesting if you want to check them out:
Writing Therapy
Art Therapy
Relating to Kinks and Porn

Not saying it works for everyone, some people need other outlets to deal with trauma, but for others it can be a really useful tool. Can this type of art/fiction cause harm? Probably yeah, if it's not tagged properly and the wrong person stumbles on it the work may traumatize them. Also depending on what it is the work can attract bad people, maybe it can inspire someone to do something bad, but that's about as rare as my mention of violent fiction inspiring murder. When it comes to harming a community, really I can't it can and it can't, the people who would use that kind of work negatively are usually the types who already don't like that community. Having less of that art/fiction wouldn't really change their viewpoints. Can a bad person be making fetishy/kinky art? Sure, but I wouldn't lump every kink artist/writer in with this person just because they make similar work, it's the reasoning behind it and who is making it that matters. Also bad people can create just about anything, just look at the creator of Rurouni Kenshin. Are all kinksters trauma survivors? Probably not, but there is a theorized link between the two.

With that said, I also wouldn't really say kink/fetish works are similar to racist propaganda. Someone trying to spread the dehumanization of a marginalized group isn't the same thing as a possible trauma survivor trying to cope with their trauma in a way that works for them. Should we censor art because certain works may cause harm? I don't think so personally.

[hakei]

There's very good nuanced explanations here, and I just wanted to add: the soundbites "fiction affects reality" and "fiction doesn't affect reality" really should be retired. I'm sick of hearing those phrases by people who refuse to acknowldge that this requires nuance, and sick of minors picking up those phrases and using that to bully others on social medias

The discussion around fiction and reality is complicated and requires nuance, and it doesn't and cannot be neatly summed up in five or less words, in black/white statements.

[simonitropunk]

Many of the reasons my story is 18+ is because it does have gory scenes and also body dismemberment because it's the nature of the world my characters inhibit and plenty of lawlessness.

[UrMom]

Fff totally forgot to add the bits about harassments and how many NSFW creators are marginalized. Honestly, the internet is kinda terrifying when it comes to that, I've probably witnessed 4-5 dogpiling campaigns against creators I follow, most of them being queer folks and/or POC. What's crazy is a lot of the harassers are kids actively ignoring warnings to go after adult content creators, which can put the creator in a lot of trouble if someone decides they're distributing porn to minors despite not actually doing that.

The last part about representation is something I think about a lot. As a queer creator working on a story with queer characters there's this weight place on me to be a role model, and have my characters be positive representation of their communities, it can get really stressful. What I make is problematic so there are days when I think "Man, when is the wrong person going to find my comic and cause a scene about it?", I just want to make a story, but as a marginalized creator it's apparently my job to fall in line with what is acceptable. You're definitely right that indie creators get more pressured, we're easy targets since we can't defend ourselves like companies and bigtime artists can. If I were to get doxxed, harassed and slandered, I definitely wouldn't be able to afford taking the legal steps to defend myself, nor would I have the ability to come back from it.

[system]

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