I heard something about 'Dead Subs'

[Sophtopus]

I heard about dead subs. How do they calculate it, and does it affect services that require minimum number of subscriptors?

I want to support other people, but at the same time I have very limited time. Most of it goes into the creation process. There is only one or two series that I keep up to date.

Should I just scroll through stuff instead? Or? ???

[Rodimus13]

Hey so dead subs are subs where someone is subbed to you but they don’t read. Now this may help the person unlock things like ad rev or ink donations, but the issue here both of those things need viewers to get anything from it. The second problem is a dead sub makes the algorithms believe this comic isn’t that interesting to viewers and makes it go lower on the popular totem pole. Reading, liking and comments make a person move up on that.
Plus some of us get a bit sad when we realize we have 100 or more subs but are only getting like 15 views an update.

[therealbereth]

I've wondered about that, too, so thanks for raising the question here;;

@Rodimus13 you're giving some good reasons as to why it's bad for us creators when people just sub, but don't read.

Thing is... I often sub to a series so I simply don't forget to come back to it as soon as I've got the time. I've stopped searching for content, though, because I don't have the time nor the mind to read anything new right now. I keep tabs with exactly two comics and try to read two novels as often as I can, but... yeah.

I kinda wonder... Do I need to feel bad for using subbing as some kind of tbr pile? Wouldn't it be better for Tapas then if we had a feature that would serve exactly that purpose – only without adding dead subs? Is that something the team might consider, @michaelson?

Because, not only would it erase dead subs, but it might ease anxiety over not reading all the time when someone updates EVERY. SINGLE. DAY. Stresses me out to no end when I see the notifs all the time. xD

[vothnthorvaldson]

I would LOVE a "to read later" function that does not affect the algorithm!
I actually had to make one.. with pen and paper...

[Sophtopus]

Gah, reading this topic makes me feel guilty. I'm such a dead subber.

[Maps]

I’ve done it too. I sub to works I’m genuinely interested in but I can be so bad at reading them. I usually am so busy with work, life, and my own stories that I never seem to have the time to dive into everything I’ve subbed to

[racheldenucci]

I don't see a problem if you plan to read it. I've had a few people sub and not read it on a week to week basis. But you know what happens when they binge read it? The algorithm sees all those views (and if I'm lucky, also likes and comments) and says "Oh, look at that. That's really popular today. Better put it on the popular list." And that gets my story in front of more people, usually on a day I didn't update it.

[michaelson]

I kinda wonder... Do I need to feel bad for using subbing as some kind of tbr pile? Wouldn't it be better for Tapas then if we had a feature that would serve exactly that purpose – only without adding dead subs? Is that something the team might consider, @michaelson?

Hm, readers can always bookmark a series using their preferred browser instead of adding a series to their library. Having a different subscription based feature doesn't really make a lot of sense to me since it over complicates the process.

[keii4ii]

Hm, readers can always bookmark a series using their preferred browser instead of adding a series to their library. Having a different subscription based feature doesn't really make a lot of sense to me since it over complicates the process.

I don't have a horse in this race, and I don't feel super strongly either way. But just offering some points from the other side of the fence:

• "People can always bookmark it" defeats the point of Tapas for some folks. The whole point of using this platform is everything is built in. And unlike bookmarks, subscriptions notify you of updates, reminding you that hey, this comic you are interested in exists.

• Readers may not be aware how much dead subs hurt the comic's visibility. They may not be aware there's ANY negative effect.

• For some creators, dead subs can feel extremely discouraging. Even if the staff decides not to make any changes to address it, I do wish you guys understood this more, and communicated your understanding. "We get you, but despite serious effort, we've been unable to find an elegant solution" is meaningful. "Why are you even complaining about this???" is alienating and dismissive. (Not saying you're saying the latter, just giving a very clear example)

[michaelson]

"People can always bookmark it" defeats the point of Tapas for some folks.

I think the important part is "for some folks"; we're talking about implementing a system that attempts to standardize reading behavior when reading behavior and publishing behavior vary significantly. Some readers check-in daily, other readers check-in weekly, some readers check-in once a month. It's almost impossible to track this type of behavior and add any type of weight to that in our currently existing algorithm.

For some creators, dead subs can feel extremely discouraging. Even if the staff decides not to make any changes to address it, I do wish you guys understood this more, and communicated your understanding. "We get you, but despite serious effort, we've been unable to find an elegant solution" is meaningful. "Why are you even complaining about this???" is alienating and dismissive. (Not saying you're saying the latter, just giving a very clear example)

We do understand this and have made adjustments to the algorithms to be more accommodating over time. I'm not really a fan the way this is framed. While you're pointing out that you're not accusing me of being alienating or dismissive, you highlight an example that is incredibly alienating and dismissive for reasons that are beyond me.

I got tagged in this topic, and tried to clarify on alternative options or reasoning behind not building a requested feature. Again, the difficulty in all of this is creating a platform that is able to highlight and surface series that is indicative of what people are reading and engaging with in the present moment. While it is a far cry from being perfect and unable to take into account subject qualifications (such as quality of comments), we are actively trying to make improvements that aren't aimed at punishing creators.

While I am hesitant to disclose further information on how the algorithm functions, inactive subscribers does not negatively penalize creators to an extent that we should be investigating alternative subscriber methods.

[therealbereth]

Thanks for taking the time to humor one of my spontaneous ideas, as always. xD

While I am hesitant to disclose further information on how the algorithm functions, inactive subscribers does not negatively penalize creators to an extent that we should be investigating alternative subscriber methods.

That's interesting! I wonder where the idea comes from, then, that dead subs hurt a series, algorithm-wise. If that's not the case, it really only leaves the factor of discouragement, and that hardly seems like something the team should be expected to assuage, considering that it's a very personal feeling for us.

[vothnthorvaldson]

From the "not [...] to an extent that...", I understand that it DOES hurt the series, but not significantly. From that, I would indeed guess that it means that having (or being!) a few random dead subs should not be too big of a worry. But I would also understand that strategies that produce a lot of dead subs should still be avoided, as the slight negative effect is likely additive.

[michaelson]

That's interesting! I wonder where the idea comes from, then, that dead subs hurt a series, algorithm-wise. If that's not the case, it really only leaves the factor of discouragement, and that hardly seems like something the team should be expected to assuage, considering that it's a very personal feeling for us.

I did mention in the past that doing sub4sub style promotions on the forums wasn't beneficial to getting a series on popular or trending since the algorithm does place a weighted value on active readers against the subscriber count. I think since that was some of the only information put out in regards to how the algorithm functions, people naturally placed a lot of emphasis on that aspect.

I should have at the time clarified that it doesn't penalize creators to that significant of an extent, that was my fault.

[keii4ii]

While you're pointing out that you're not accusing me of being alienating or dismissive, you highlight an example that is incredibly alienating and dismissive for reasons that are beyond me.

I know it's not what you are saying. I'm saying it can seem like that to some people. I see people talking shit about Tapas in other places, people taking extremely negative interpretations of anything the staff says or does, and it really bothers me every time I see it. While some of those people will never be pleased, I do believe there are ways to better communicate with the others.

I do apologize for using a harsh example (ironically while discussing better communication). Again, not saying that was what you said. If I thought that was what you meant to say, I would not be posting this. I'm here because I believe the Tapas staff in general mean well, and I want more people to recognize that. There are changes Tapas can make to that end, is what I'm trying to say.

[therealbereth]

Ah, then thank you for clarifying this now. :3

My conscience feels better already.

[ZombieOwl]

I don't think dead subs "hurt" a series, but they don't help them get views. If you've unlocked ad revenue and tipping, it's thanks to subs. Even if you have dead subs, your active subs will help you by reading and/or tipping occasionally.

I can imagine dead subs unsubscribing doing more damage (like, maybe you lose ads and tips?).

I've been a dead sub for a few series before. I talk to people in the forums or see an interesting "thank you" card on a profile, so I sub and check things out. If I'm not too interested, I'll stop reading and try again later to see how the story develops. If it's not what I'm into, that's when I unsub.

[skicoak]

since the algorithm does place a weighted value on active readers against the subscriber count.

If an active reader has a positive affect on the algorithm, then it's just word games to say inactive/dead subs don't "penalize" you. They might not represent a negative number in the equations, but it's just mathematically comparing zero to any positive number.

Because the algorithm has to be protected at all times, all we can do is interpret from the vague explanations of how it works.

[KRWright]

I was told by Tapas that number of subs versus likes, comments, etc. doesn't make a difference for Popular, which only takes into account activity on your work in the last 24 hours (but obviously, the more subscribers you have, or gain, in a period will also lead to more likes and views). So maybe this was true of the algorithm once, but I don't think it's as true now?

[OttoGruenwald]

I feel as if it depends on your personal case with tapas. Most of my views don't come from tapas users, so I get views above my sub count so I can effectively eat any dead sub vote in views from off-site users.

[skicoak]

Most of my views don't come from tapas users, so I get views above my sub count so I can effectively eat any dead sub vote in views from off-site users.

I'm not saying they are or they aren't, but you're assuming unsubscribed views count the same as subscribed views. Because the algorithm is a big unknown quantity, we don't really know. But you got to figure that the existence of an algorithm is to weigh stats to the site's benefit.