Kicked Out of Writing Group

cherrystark 2021-06-04 21:48:22 UTC #1

I have had an interesting, to say the least, experience in a writing group that I have now left. A writer posted asking to know "what she was doing wrong" with her big dark romance story with mafia influences, dubcon, kidnapping, and forced pregnancy.

While I am all for a writer's right to write, I was shocked and appalled by the lack of consent and I mentioned it to them. They reamed me for "shaming" them and a lot of people think it's a "yummy, thriving genre". If standing up for victims' rights and the necessity for consent IRL and in fiction is "shaming", then I'm a shamer. You can write a satisfying and steamy romance while still honoring consent.

therosesword 2021-06-04 21:56:57 UTC #2

You can write a satisfying, dark, steaming romance without including to rape.

joannekwan 2021-06-04 21:59:59 UTC #3

Well, if their story was something aimed at a YA audience then yeah I see how that can be a big issue.

But if they are explicitly writing for an adult kink crowd then that's their decision and not really my business.

mcmx 2021-06-04 22:03:13 UTC #4

I agree with this 100% consent is incredibly important in any form of media and writing, behavior like this shouldn't be romanticized or encouraged. (Unless its for a particular audience or genre).

therosesword 2021-06-04 22:12:35 UTC #5

I wish Cherry would put her response here to the post.. I saw it. It did not say the person shouldn't write what they want to write she was very diplomatic and I think people immediately jumped on the "you're trying to shame us" wagon, because, I don't know... they felt guilty?

I'm not sure what audience the person was going for (from the responses it wasn't a group of guys in their gramm's basement with dirty t-shirts and grease stains down their chins) but I couldn't help but think of all my friends who work so much against "rape culture" and the fall of the patriarchy and yet, here is someone in their age group advocating FOR it.

What was most amazing for me was one of the responses that said, no they would never like something like rape to happen to them or their loved ones but it was FUN to read about it.

I can't even....

I know (as do most of us) many women AND MEN who have been raped. Their stories are not meant to be fun.

There is nothing romantic about being violated.

If this were a tale along the lines of The Handmaiden's Tale... okay. but to have it be part of "romance." Sorry, just can't go there.

And yes, I know, if I don't like it, don't read it. I won't. All Cherry suggested was "consent"

MShadowlawn 2021-06-04 22:14:49 UTC #6

Honestly, in my eyes, this would be entirely dependent on what the mission statement and rules of the writing group are. If it's just a bunch of random writers writing about nothing in particular, yeah, should've made sure it's okay with everyone involved before involving that kind of batshit crazy shenanigans.

If it's a group dedicated to writing 50 Shades-esque smut (or worse), well... I'm not gonna lie, I have a fair bit less sympathy for you in that case. Kinda just comes with the territory (unless that was written out of the rules, of course).

Is it abhorrent? Yeah, I suppose so. But there's a goddamn fetish (and therefore a market) for just about anything.

Make no mistake though, I'd be calling for a crusade myself if I saw someone writing about pedophilia in a positive light.

therosesword 2021-06-04 22:16:37 UTC #7

it was a general "romance" group as far as I could tell. Everything from sweet to ... that.

cherrystark 2021-06-04 22:22:03 UTC #8

The stories in the group were pretty across the spectrum "romance-wise". In some cases, like The Handmaiden's Tale, it does happen and it should be shown for what it is. Adding a simple "Are you sure that you're sure about this?" "Yes, I'm sure." or something to that effect works. It's two lines are go about your business. Just make sure all parties involved are able to consent.

GumshoeComix 2021-06-04 22:43:34 UTC #9

I'm all for people being able to write whatever they want, I'd be a hypocrite if I wasn't my story is about sexual assault.
But they did ask for a critique from what you're saying it sounds like they didn't take it well.
There are certain rules you have to follow if you're going to write about sexual assault, and an obvious one is don't turn it into a romance.
From what your describing their story was very kink based? "dubcon"/"raplay" is an incredibly common kink, actually one of the most common kinks, but if you're going to make a story about it or that includes it you have to write it well?
To me it sounds like she needs to decide whether she's writing this to vent or she's writing this cause she wants people to actually read it. Because if its the latter she needs to get rid of the romance aspect and focus more on the mafia side, or have it so the lead has severe stolholms syndrome

Mallory 2021-06-04 22:57:08 UTC #10

Eh. My own adult writing tends to go in a very, shall we say, dubcon direction. If the author comes off as someone who is aware that they're writing dubcon and are writing it specifically for that kink, then IMO it's really freaking dumb to shame them for it, because people can have fetishes that they know are not acceptable to replicate in real life. I'm well aware that dubcon is unethical in real life. I've been in a happy, healthy, consenting and respectful relationship IRL for 11 years. I work in social services. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy a seduction fantasy where two characters are totally aware that "no" actually means "yes, but I'm overwhelmed by you" because it's magic fantasy land where there is never any miscommunication and people get exactly what they want out of a sexual encounter without having to explicitly state it. So long as no real person is actively harmed, I don't see how someone else's kink is anyone else's business.

I DO think that kinks should be clearly marked as such (something along the lines of "this narrative deals with sexual situations that can only safely exist in works of fiction" right on the cover, like a pack of cigarettes) because I wouldn't WANT some gullible person to read that as their first erotica and think that this is normal for sex between real people (people shouldn't be learning about sex from fiction but... let's be real, sex ed everywhere is abysmal, and not for lack of people who want to change that). But so long as they are handled in a way that understands that fictional kink =/= reality, it has no bearing on the character of the writer who writes these books.

The only time I get the "ick" factor is if it's dubcon content that's treated with a straight face, like it's romantic, and the author gives no outward indication that what they wrote would be very abusive if re-enacted by real people (especially if the target audience is younger people). Admittedly the line there is pretty thin, and without a culture that normalizes content warnings on fiction, it's hard to judge the author's intent by the work alone. So, I think I'm in camp "every work of fiction should have a list right at the very front of content warnings", so people can avoid things they don't want AND have a way of clearly defining narratives meant to serve a particular kink.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2021-06-04 23:01:50 UTC #11

Were you actually "kicked out" or left by your own decision ("group that I have now left")? I'm wondering if they pulled a cancel culture act on you.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2021-06-04 23:16:09 UTC #12

This is a sensitive issue, for sure, and I hope this doesn't get read as defending IRL scoundrels at all or even the writing group, but......
(You know shit's gonna hit the fan when the lead-in ends in "but....")

Should anyone be incensed or offended about stories that include simple murder, slaughter of innocents in small and large numbers, or burning entire villages to death, etc., etc. And in many cases those are accomplished by a main character "good guy". All are common themes in a lot of fantasy writing & a lot of it to be found here on Tapas.

IOW, what are the boundaries that make one egregious abuse of a human being acceptable in fiction but a different egregious abuse not acceptable in fiction? Surely, it's a very wide gray border defined by personal opinions?

PS - re the "romance" reference - it wasn't clear to me who was being "romanced" but rape &/or involuntary impregnation sure aren't any kind of romance that I recognize.

therosesword 2021-06-04 23:19:32 UTC #13

THIS is what the whole post was about....it wasn't a "reference" it is the whole subject of the post. rape as romance. Everything else, murder, burning etc. have absolutely Nothing to do with this subject.

the strict focus on this was wanting to use Forced Pregnancy (i.e. rape whether it's person on person or artificial insemination) is supposed to be romantic.

therosesword 2021-06-04 23:21:39 UTC #14

I really wish Cherry would post her reply. It was very diplomatic and articulate. It's the other people who took it as shaming.

Ordinaryaverageguy 2021-06-04 23:43:47 UTC #15

Not having seen cherrystark's messages to the writing group & going only on their posts here, it was, as I said, unclear to me who were the romance figures vs who was being abused by bad guys.

Actually, I thought they did, because the thread went in the direction of the morality of a story's actions vs whether it was reasonable/unreasonable to evict one from a writing group for simply expressing an opinion. I wanted to make note that a great deal of fiction involves hugely immoral actions, even by "heroes", yet we swallow almost all of them whole.

I stipulate that idea is stupid at the very least.
What I wanted to "devil's advocate" was how so many morally reprehensible & even criminal actions are ingrained in fiction but judged differently; that is, usually not at all. I think that's interesting. Of course, there's more people reading fiction who may have been raped/assaulted than there are who had been murdered, so that the fiction hits more like an IRL news story than pure fiction.

leopagefiore 2021-06-05 00:22:46 UTC #16

TL;DR - Your writing group is in the wrong, IMO. They need to understand that romanticized abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios don't belong in mainstream fiction. If they wanted to be inclusive to members who write sadomasochistic porn, they should have made that clear to all members right from the start.

I'm sorry you were put in this situation. I'm trying to think about what the group should have done in retrospect, but I'm not sure if I fully grasp the circumstances around this situation based on everyone's posts. So, I apologize if I misinterpret the details. It seems to me (and again, I apologize if I'm misinterpreting the situation) that the group was open to a wide variety of romances, including ones that incorporated elements of dubcon and r### fantasy. They should have warned all members of this fact. One of the big proponents of BDSM culture is consent. Meaning anyone who doesn't want to be a part of, for example, abuse, dubcon, or r### role play shouldn't be forced to be part of it. I believe this should extend to fiction that caters to these kinks. Readers who don't want to read fiction that includes abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios as a "yummy, thriving genre" shouldn't have to read it. So many writers don't want to "censor" their works and whinge about not wanting to include content warnings. So, instead of accepting that they've written sadomasochistic porn and labeling their books accordingly, they instead try to normalize or romanticize the abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios in their books to mainstream audiences, and it's irresponsible.

Full disclosure, I self-published a terribly written book over a decade ago that included an element I later realized was dubious consent. While I've removed that book from publication and bought back as many copies as I could, I'm definitely throwing stones from a glass house here. But my understanding of these scenarios in fiction vs. reality has changed since I wrote that awful book, and while I don't want to shame anyone who's into fictional sadomasochistic scenarios, they shouldn't be presented as normal or acceptable in mainstream media.

cherrystark 2021-06-05 00:39:37 UTC #17

leopagefiore:

TL;DR - Your writing group is in the wrong, IMO. They need to understand that romanticized abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios don't belong in mainstream fiction. If they wanted to be inclusive to members who write sadomasochistic porn, they should have made that clear to all members right from the start.

----------

I'm sorry you were put in this situation. I'm trying to think about what the group should have done in retrospect, but I'm not sure if I fully grasp the circumstances around this situation based on everyone's posts. So, I apologize if I misinterpret the details. It seems to me (and again, I apologize if I'm misinterpreting the situation) that the group was open to a wide variety of romances, including ones that incorporated elements of dubcon and r### fantasy. They should have warned all members of this fact. One of the big proponents of BDSM culture is consent. Meaning anyone who doesn't want to be a part of, for example, abuse, dubcon, or r### role play shouldn't be forced to be part of it. I believe this should extend to fiction that caters to these kinks. Readers who don't want to read fiction that includes abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios as a "yummy, thriving genre" shouldn't have to read it. So many writers don't want to "censor" their works and whinge about not wanting to include content warnings. So, instead of accepting that they've written sadomasochistic porn and labeling their books accordingly, they instead try to normalize or romanticize the abuse/dubcon/r### scenarios in their books to mainstream audiences, and it's irresponsible.

Full disclosure, I self-published a terribly written book over a decade ago that included an element I later realized was dubious consent. While I've removed that book from publication and bought back as many copies as I could, I'm definitely throwing stones from a glass house here. But my understanding of these scenarios in fiction vs. reality has changed since I wrote that awful book, and while I don't want to shame anyone who's into fictional sadomasochistic scenarios, they shouldn't be presented as normal or acceptable in mainstream media.

I agree. Proper warnings and censorship. I don't care if they write their smutty books, to each their own. It's not my cuppa, so I won't read themm. I am against normalizing r### scenarios. The way the writer presented the book was exactly that. *One person even said they are fun to read about, though they never want it to happen IRL. I want to see consent normalized.

amortelito 2021-06-05 00:55:40 UTC #18

My very brief take on this: Authors should be free to write about whatever they damn want to (in my opinion), but in the appropriate context and with the appropriate group of people. Put clear trigger warnings. And, well, accept the fact that people have the right to react to your work too.

If someone is writing about forced pregnancy as if it a super romantic way to start a relationship...they shouldn't be shocked at the strong reactions against it. That's why your freedom to create should also be used with common sense.

I'm a big supporter of creative freedom and a big supporter of self-regulated boundaries and empathy for the viewers.

SleepingPoppy 2021-06-05 01:05:44 UTC #19

Clarifying question- was it made clear before anyone read the story that it included dubcon, or did you/any other readers go in blind?

Personally I feel more morally grey about this. And like.. I don't know what was said, but if the story is intentionally non consent, I can see how "but what if it wasn't?" Wasn't exactly the critique being looked for. But that doesn't mean a conversation about how consent is framed in stories couldn't have been had, and potentially improve the story. Depending on what the author is going for.

Personally I enjoy some dark romance stories, but for me I need it to be obvious from the writing that the author knows the relationship is toxic. But that's a personal preference, not a moral decree. My over all take is that it's complicated, tag what you write. xD

cherrystark 2021-06-05 01:19:16 UTC #20

When they summarized the story, they simply asked "what was wrong with it?" Because they were having trouble writing it. I simply addressed that they were most likely having trouble with it because of the consent issue. There was no shame, just an observation.