Bruh. I feel this so hard on a LOT of popular media. Where, like, you have the escapism as the entire theme of the story (reason for the person to write/create it). But then, they pull this BS when you're thinking, "Cool. People can learn to be stronger than they ever believed they could. Maybe we should give others a chance at their own potential and not write them off immediately because of what class they're associated with. This makes me feel like, if I work hard, I can unlock my own potential and be strong like the hero of this story!"
Then they're like, 300 episodes in, "Nope! He was only that way BECAUSE he's part god. And since YOU'RE not, you can't relate to him anymore. He never had to work that hard in the first place because he was just BORN great!"
Oh, okay. throws story into trash
It's just other people getting involved, or the original creator getting too into the hype of prolonging their story, that the entire theme is lost and then devolves into a lesser form of itself.
Okay, I'm done being angy.
Oh brah, YuYu Hakusho was like this! It started off where the MC was this normal teen who gained a special ability after dying, but after the 10,000,000th episode it was revealed that half his bloodline came from a special demon tribe or something. So he wasn't a normal teen after all. (It's been ages since I've see the anime, so I don't remember much.)
I've never really thought about the fake underdog thing like that. I've grown up seeing it as some kind of escapism, like "Your not some rando, you're a special person with special abilities, from a secret fancy background!". For kids who grew up in a shitty family, or in poverty, these type of stories can feel really nice. Although on one hand I can see some being disheartened or disillusioned, knowing something like that can't happen. I can't tell you how I felt about it as a kid, now as an adult I see it as kinda stupid, the almost comical coincidental nature if it can really donkey kick you out of a story, but I'm no longer the target audience.
Hey, this is me!
Something I found interesting about the response to this comic is that I made it without having any one story in mind, because it's a gripe I have with so many stories. But it received a lot of comments like, "This is obviously about X" with "X" being a wide variety of different stories, many of which I haven't even watched/read. Which I think really shows how prevalent this theme is in fiction.
As mentioned by others, this is something that exists (to varying degrees) in Star Wars, Harry Potter, Naruto, Bleach, and so on. Even Dragon Ball eventually got in on it. Goku just started off as some random monkey boy that Gohan found in the woods. In Z we find out he's actually descended from a race of super space warriors (the most standard among them, Raditz, still being more powerful than any Earthling). Eventually, we find out about Goku's biological father, Bardock, who is also the one saiyan who actually rebelled against Frieza, and with further specials dedicated to him, may be the original Super Saiyan (though non-canon) and just seems like (along with his wife) the one Saiyan who was actually a decent person.
May I ask what part you specifically "don't agree" with? I absolutely understand why these stories are written and why people enjoy them, I just don't think they're ultimately good messages to deliver. I generally have an aversion to stories where the protagonist relies on an external source of validation to affirm their value ("You actually do have value as a person because your ancestors were very valuable people!"). I also feel like this kind of worldbuilding creates a rigid class hierarchy that's completely dependent on familial connections. I have no problems with that sort of society existing within a story, but I don't like when the narrative supports its existence unquestionably.
I agree that the initial premise of Theophilia Wallace would still support a "born-with-it" message of empowerment, but that's only if the story stays on one level of subversion. Not that I'm disagreeing with anything more that you're saying, but my frustration with these kinds of stories is that when I start to notice "blood-based class structure" themes, I'm eagerly waiting for the story to subvert that theme in any way. In this sense, the little girl reading is my author avatar, "Oh! I know the story on the surface seems to support this unjust societal structure, but I'm sure that somehow Theophilia's character is going to be used to expose its flaws and upend their beliefs!"
Except more often than not, the story doesn't go in that direction. Society is correct that capability is an inborn trait, they were just wrong in determining what Theophilia's birthright was. Similarly, a lot of the stories that disappoint me in this regard have clues a lot earlier that this will probably be the theme, but I give too much benefit of the doubt and assume those are just misdirection.
Yeah, these are some ways this sort of narrative could subvert the "inherited powers" trope while delivering a message of empowerment that I find more to my tastes. Something like this is what I imagine the little girl reading is trying to predict in her mind. But she's going to be disappointed later on because she unfortunately expected the story to be more clever than it really was.
I don't agree with that people should never write these kind of stories or that some how all media for kids have to be shoving a deep message down their throats. I think kids like things where the twist is the MC is secretly a mermaid fairy princess. Sometimes these can just be fun stories.
That doesn't mean I like all types of these kind of stories. Never been a fan of most Marvel or DC stuff. I also think the deep message of Pixar's Incredibles is awful. I also preferred Rey being the child of a nobody like set up in Johnson's film.
I do also like the movie October Sky which is about a bunch of teens who want to be rocket engineers even tho their parents are poor and coal miners.
I don't think the takeaway from this is that 'people should never write these kinds of stories' (that should very, very rarely be the takeaway from any kind of meta-literary analysis, because all tropes have some kind of logic and value behind them). It's just that, on the large scale, seeing this trope play out feels like a betrayal of expectations. People who wanted to see an 'underdog' with no support system shake up the world order (and were basically lured in with this premise) end up getting nothing but the world order re-establishing itself, only this time with a new top dog. =/
I agree that most kids probably wouldn't be bothered by this (I never was). But I also think that the idea that maybe the ADULTS who write these stories are writing them because of some conscious or unconscious bias isn't all the way out of left field. If we are repeatedly being told that this is the "easiest" or "most obvious" explanation for a special person to come out of seemingly nowhere, maybe, just maybe, there's a reason behind it.
SOMEONE TALKING SMACK ABOUT MY 2ND FAVORITE PIXAR MOVIE--
...Okay, in all seriousness, I can see why someone would have issues with the Incredibles. ^^;
To be frank, I think the message was supposed to be "people who are different shouldn't be forced to hide who they are and conform to make other people comfortable", and if you're looking any further than that you're reading too much into it. Gotta draw the line somewhere (and you yourself said it's not always about shoving hidden messages down people's throats).
HOWEVER, all the cartoon violence and over-the-top destruction does obscure this message quite a bit. ^^; When 'people who are different' means 'people who can shoot lasers out of their eyes', something's gotta give at some point. And I think they did try to address this when they could...which only contributed to muddying the message.
I enjoyed that; I think it made the movie feel realistic, because it admits that there's really no easy answer to the issue of 'supers'. But I can see how some people could see that and go "but...what are they really trying to say here" and not like what they come up with.
The only reason why I brought it up was that the child in the comic made this statement.
This seems less like what a kid would say and sort of reminds me of those parents who go to Common Sense Media or other sites to complain that girl from Turning Red is a bad influence on children and junk like that.
I don't hate the movie but if you think too hard about the core message, it's sort of messed up. I can also say the same about Lion King, I love the movie but it has sort of a weird message.
To be honest, I think what actually muddies the message of Incredibles is actually Syndrome's character and also that famous line of "If everyone is super, no one will be".
It's kind of easy in my opinion to derive a message of "some people are just naturally gifted and average ungifted people shouldn't bother to do anything to try to achieve their level" considering how Syndrome is portrayed. Of course, not trying to justify what he did but his base opinions should at least have been explored a bit more rather than just used for villainous motivation.
Which actually kind of leads to a separate opinion I have that the nature of certain stories to separate people who are "special" and "not special" is problematic itself as it implies that people who possess some special quality are just naturally superior than those who do not. Which I guess is kinda why I never really considered any story where the protag is part of the "special" group no matter their circumstances of how they got there as that much of an underdog story
Media criticism doesn't mean you're saying, "this should not exist," it means I don't like a certain part of that media and I'm expressing why. Everyone does this, there are countless threads on this forum that complain about things we don't like in our stories. I just wrote a comic about it instead of a forum thread.
Children's media doesn't have to have a message, but very often they do. In fact, I'm sure every children's story we generally consider "good" does make an attempt at having a message. So if you're already creating art with the intent of saying something about the world and how it should operate, you should probably put some thought into whether or not that message is consistent with your actual values.
I find the blunt and uncharacteristically adult style of speech to be funny coming from a child. It contrasts with the narrator's extremely juvenile response.
I want to use The Incredibles as an example of how I can be very critical of a piece of art while still liking it very much. I agree, a lot of underlying themes of The Incredibles is pretty messed up and can easily be interpreted in ways to support ideologies I disagree with greatly.
But I still love the film, it's a strong story with charming characters and a fun and engaging plot. So I can talk about how some of the themes of The Incredibles can get pretty eugenics-y and supportive of Randian objectivism, while still saying, "This was a good film and I'm happy it exists."
It also helps that the movie was thematically consistent. While I don't like the idea of "certain people are born inherently more special than others," the movie never tries to convince us it has a message contrary to that.
That's actually a very valid point, especially considering the plethora of existing superhero characters who have skills and ingenuity, rather than supernatural powers (Iron-Man, Batman). I wish the film/franchise had tried to explore that, because I think they could have made it really fun. ^^
Unfortunately, I never thought about it because...well, I just found it kind of impossible to take Syndrome seriously. ^^; Like, yes, he's a threat, but the valid aspect of his character that concerns feeling inferior to 'supers' is used so little in the story it's quite nearly forgettable, IMO.
If his MAIN goal in the plot had been to manufacture super-powered items and distribute them to the public to "even the playing field", I'm gonna be honest, that could have led to a more interesting story than the one we got. ^^; But instead, it was just introduced as a throwaway end-game concept, while his actual present-day goal was to use his technology to pretend to be a 'super'. =/ Like...he just wanted attention.
Believe it or not, I actually feel the same way. ^^; I don't consume many stories with this setup (I feel like it's boring and overdone...I recently started to read Witch Hat Atelier, but once I realized it was gonna be THIS again I stopped, and now I'm debating continuing...).
But that's why I really wanted to bring this discussion to the forum; I want to see what people who have more experience with the trope have to say about it. I'm STILL shocked that it's apparently a big thing in shonen anime...now that people have explained it, I get it, but I'm surprised I heard so little about that aspect of those stories.
OH MY GOSH
IT'S
IT'S YOU
I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THIS WAS YOUR COMIC; WHAT THE HECK
...That's what I get for never paying attention to people's usernames on this forum...I don't know why I do it... ^^;
Yeah, I feel the same. ^^ Pixar movies especially have a knack for making me love them while ALSO wanting to know and think critically about everything that could be gross and wrong with them.
I didn't realize this was a comic you wrote. Tho I don't really agree with it, I do feel a bit bad. You never consented to have it posted and discussed, heck Tapas sort of discourages users from doing that because I think people should have the option to say if they want people to critique their work or not.
Sorry if I came off as rude.
Incredibles is about society saying everyone is equal when the reality is you are not. There are better people than you and worst people than you, in many ways. Your worth as a human not withstanding, the message is to embrace what makes you better and don't let people say you are not. It's taken to the extreme because of course Dash is faster than you, he's super powered. But that is to drive the point home.
It's no problem, I tend to glaze over usernames too when reading through threads. I just found it to be a pleasant surprise to stumble upon one of my comics being a discussion piece.
No worries, I wasn't offended and I don't think you were rude. I'm actually happy to know my comics are being spread around without my knowledge - it's a sign that people like them well enough to share with others. I also do enjoy when my work prompts discussion from people, whether they agree with my message or not.
Also, one of the main platforms I share my comics on is Reddit, so I've seen much worse comments about my work.
Regarding why this is pretty common in kids' media, well let's face it, kids like flashy stuff, it's why Elsa is statistically more popular than Anna despite Anna being the protag and also with the more proactive personality. I think most stories featuring this type of setting where people are separated into "special" and "normies" and where the protag was part of the "normie" group who gets the powers to become part of the "special" group aren't really trying to push a underdog narrative of "anyone can become special", as Nick says, it's more trying to be an escapist fantasy.
The "normies" becoming "special" is more just an escapist scenario of "what if one day you stopped living a boring life and became super special". This would usually be pushed further with "what if your parents weren't boring salarypeople and are also super special" later. Another common shonen trope is also just the fact that the protag possesses some super unique secret power that no one else has, that makes them more powerful than the other special people. Even though there are prominent "normie" heroes in popular media, actually think about how little kids stories out there where settings have the "special" and "normie" divide actually have a protagonist who is "normie" and can only achieve things through "normie" methods. Hell, a good chunk of those stories don't even have a "normie" character as part of the main cast.
Basically, the story isn't really trying to talk about underdogs or that the common people can become great, it's entertaining you with a power fantasy. Of course, because of this it's very easy to derive a problematic classist message from stuff like the secret bloodline trope, but if your story already has the tone of "people who have powers are just better than people who have no powers" and "people who have stronger powers than other people are just better and more important" then you're already pushing a bad message at that point. Inserting a bloodlines trope is just adding fuel to the fire
If you want an example of a story with a setting with a divide between people who have and don't have powers done well, I'd recommend Mob Psycho 100. I find it has a good message while also being grounded in reality. Yes, there are people who are better at a thing than others are, maybe they are naturals at it too, but that doesn't make them superior. Rather, everyone is good at their own thing and you shouldn't dismiss someone just because they aren't as smart/strong/whatever as you, because they probably excel at something you lack at and can support you while you can support them with what they lack at.
I'm not a fan of this trope either, especially if the story, when starting out, emphasized how underdog the MC was for not coming from a certain heritage or having certain powers. Or how hard work and determination overcomes heritage (ahem, NARUTO). But I do understand it's a form of escapism and we've all fantasized at some point in our lives "what if our family was secretly mega-rich?"
I'd actually say Harry Potter doesn't fit this trope because even from the get-go he was a special prophesized child and it was clear that him surviving Voldemort's killer juice squirt was very special. With Rey —... well, the whole trilogy is a mess
Long-running stories often come into this problem, I think. Especially in stories involving fighting powerful magical villains. Creators, in order to meet the rising power levels, end up giving their MC some magical heritage powers to be able to defeat the ever-more-powerful villains. The "nature vs nurture" issue is swept to the side, as "nature (heritage)" always wins in these stories.
Side ramble while I'm on this topic — I am a Kingdom Hearts fan. Sora, the MC, so far has the story of being a normal kid with a heart of gold, who gets his strength from friends and connecting with others.
Canonically Sora wasn't even the first choice for his Keyblade — his Keyblade was originally his friend Riku's before the Keyblade decided to change its owner. And the games repeatedly state that it's his kind heart and his friends that is the source of his power. Without his friends and that connection, he stumbles and falters.
Anyway, I'd hate it so much if later down the line, he was revealed to be a reincarnation of a god or something. Please let Sora stay a normal kid who got to where he is because of his kind heart and with the power of friendship Let his kind heart be his special thing, not some magical heritage.
I think it's probably also important to take note of the kind of lives that kids and teenagers tend to live when considering these stories... Because most kids and teenagers live in very constrained lives, and the "classist" society can probably be seen, through that lens, as an allegory for the parental oversight that dictates their lives. Like a story with a message "You can be anything you want to be, as long as you practice!" would mean nothing to a girl who wants to be a martial artist, but whose parents tell her that she's not allowed to enroll in a martial arts class because it's not for girls. But a story where even though she's "forbidden" from doing something, she manifests those powers anyways, society (and parents) be damned? That's a very nice fantasy. Especially when the secret "REAL" parents involved are super cool and bestowed her with those powers. It's like a direct middle finger to whatever they don't like about their parents (and lets be real, most teens have issues with their parents, even if their parents are good parents).
I can't stand this trope, easily one of my least favorite in sci fi, and especially in YA (at least when I was reading it during the 2010s). I think creators look at chosen one stories and forget part of their appeal is that it is an average person chosen for a great task, either through luck or some destiny, who then earns that title within the story via their heroic actions.