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Jun 2022

Thoughts? Opinions? ^^

A lot of people in the comments were mentioning Harry Potter and Rey...I think Rey in particular is an example of this being done on several levels of bad...which is a little sad, because you can tell that they wanted to say 'but ACTUALLY, the family you belong to is the one you feel connected to, so Rey is REALLY a Skywalker' but ^^^this^^^ nasty trope just overshadowed that message completely. They might've been able to make it work if we'd known Rey was a Palpatine from the beginning, but now I'm just rewriting the whole trilogy so I might as well stop. ^^;

ALSO, a lot of people were mentioning shonen anime, which surprised me. Is this trope really used that often in the genre??
The only instance in which I've seen that (and this is a stretch) is in the plot of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, where we get lots of cutesy little subtle hints that Rex is a descendant of Addam...but there's really so little emphasis placed on this in the story that I doubt it counts.

Besides, having the ability to be a Driver at all is such a gigantic dice roll; you don't get the sense that the 'non-specials' in this case are doomed to stay that way for life, which I think is essential for this trope to work. You gotta have that strong divide, so that it looks like the underdog is actually overcoming their fate before the bait-and-switch is revealed.

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    Jun '22
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I never thought of this in that way. That is screwed up. Any thoughts on how this trope ended up gaining such popularity?

I haaaaated the "Rey is a Palpatine" thing. HATED IT. I was actually really happy with the reveal that Rey was just some rando and to have it undermined pissed me off!

There seems to be this really hard to shake part of the human consciousness that wants to believe that somebody with special parents will be special, even though we've seen time and time again from historical evidence, that it's simply not true. :sweat_01:

Oh I saw this on reddit a few days ago! Welcome to most of Tapas and Webtoons Library.

Naruto.

Just throw it on the burning pile of classism tales. It goes both ways and both suck.

Old school shounen anime is a big example. You get protagonists which are meant to be relatable young boys who get by with their hard work alone (to inspire you, ANYONE can become great!), only for you to find out way later that they're actually the descendant of someone special which explains why THEY are special. E.g. Naruto.

I don't read a lot of shounen now so I don't know if this has changed. But I do know that Demon Slayer (Kimetsu no Yaiba) actually subverts this in a fun way.

I don't really agree with the mindset of that comic. I think the reason why kids/teens are drawn to those kind of stories is because they like to imagine themselves as being special/super. It's self-insert and escapism, and kids/teens love that stuff because they might feel like a nobody IRL and they wish they could be more. I think Harry Potter starting out in the human world also sets up a "fish out of water" narrative that he learns about the wizarding world along with the audience.

As for Rey being a Palpatine, that is just bad writing. It sets up incest, because Kylo Ren's great grandpa is Palpatine. The dumb writers took no time to do any research into the lore of Star Wars and sort of decided to try to "throw out" the extended universe to do whatever they wanted. It also doesn't make any sense in the films (if ignoring the extended lore), it just feels like J. J. Abrams was not happy with the changes Rian Johnson make in the sequel film. And instead of working off of what Johnson wrote, like setting up the force kids and Rose, Abrams just threw that all out to focus on bad fan service. I think out of the three films The Last Jedi is the strongest because it is actually trying to develop something new instead of just recycling the old Star Wars.

Ichigo from Bleach is an annoying example because it really feels like a retcon. There's absolutely nothing even hinted in early issues that suggest Ichigo's specialness is due to anything more than a random chance encounter in his childhood, or that there's anything special about his dad. He's just a human who had a bad encounter with a hollow and developed spiritual powers and for whatever reason he has a lot of it... but then it's like "NOPE! He's actually inherited super-awesome powers due to being half-Shinigami!" Like....what?!?!

An underdog who is actually descendant of a special person can still be interesting.
* An underdog of a known Special Family that has to be a little flexible on how they unlock their own potential.
* Underdogs who feel pressure of their own epic bloodline and the fear of not being able to live up to it.
It seems stories like to tie underdog-bait protags to bigger prophecies as a way of expanding their lore and story. To be honest, it's not the worst trope ever.

It's so prevalent because it's a cheap answer to the problem of "if it was possible for a plebeian to become a Special all along, why doesn't everyone (or at least a significant number of people) do it?" The answer, in this case, is "because he was a Special by birth", which reaffirms the inherent nature of the divide between Specials and everyone else even more - since someone raised by muggles can still be a Special, if their parents are Specials, it's a strong argument for the "nature" side of "nature vs nurture".
The absence of such an answer would blast a huge plothole in the internal logic of the world.
So the problem is not actually this trope in itself, but the whole concept of special abilities being innate and not, say, learned...
...the reason for which, in turn, is, as some people already noted, classism.

Well, regarding the example in the comic itself, I feel like the brand of underdog discussed in the comic still can be considered as baiting and disempowering without the need to insert a secret bloodline/prophecy/whatever. This is a problem that needs to be tackled for any kind of story where the powers of the world building depends heavily on inheritance or just decided by something out of the character's own control.

As the world established in the satire comic seems to imply that the possession of special abilities is an inmate and inherited thing, (the Special are bloodlines that inherit them). With the introduction of a regular person who possesses these powers out of random or a random encounter, it wouldn't really make any statement about how "anyone can be special", only a statement of "anyone can be special if you're just lucky enough or just naturally talented". Which isn't that much better of a message in my opinion. Not to mention, as arkin stated, any world building inconsistencies that might spawn from it. Not that I think that revealing some secret bloodline or whatever is usually a good trope to use to cover that problem, but it certainly is the easiest way.

But that doesn't mean that using this brand of world building of inherited powers will only lead to disempowering messages. You can establish a reveal later that there is a way for a regular person to receive powers and the protag was able to accidentally achieve it through their hard work and Never Giving Up(tm), or you could reveal that the world system is undergoing some big change which is also making those special powers more easily accessible to the regular person, protag was just one of the first ones. Or hell, maybe the protag doesn't get powers, but they can go toe-to-toe with those that do.

The nature of a regular person somehow receiving special powers out of pure randomness is underdog-baiting in itself. It doesn't make a reader think they can achieve it through their own capabilities, but that they just need to be lucky (which I guess is true to reality sometimes, but kind of a bummer when that's the main message in the story in my humble opinion).

Sounds like the plot line to a magical girl show. I feel like this happens often in stories like that. Like Winx Club and Sailor Moon.

Bruh. I feel this so hard on a LOT of popular media. Where, like, you have the escapism as the entire theme of the story (reason for the person to write/create it). But then, they pull this BS when you're thinking, "Cool. People can learn to be stronger than they ever believed they could. Maybe we should give others a chance at their own potential and not write them off immediately because of what class they're associated with. This makes me feel like, if I work hard, I can unlock my own potential and be strong like the hero of this story!"
Then they're like, 300 episodes in, "Nope! He was only that way BECAUSE he's part god. And since YOU'RE not, you can't relate to him anymore. He never had to work that hard in the first place because he was just BORN great!"

Oh, okay. throws story into trash :sweat_01:

It's just other people getting involved, or the original creator getting too into the hype of prolonging their story, that the entire theme is lost and then devolves into a lesser form of itself.

Okay, I'm done being angy. :hohoho:

Oh brah, YuYu Hakusho was like this! It started off where the MC was this normal teen who gained a special ability after dying, but after the 10,000,000th episode it was revealed that half his bloodline came from a special demon tribe or something. So he wasn't a normal teen after all. (It's been ages since I've see the anime, so I don't remember much.)

I've never really thought about the fake underdog thing like that. I've grown up seeing it as some kind of escapism, like "Your not some rando, you're a special person with special abilities, from a secret fancy background!". For kids who grew up in a shitty family, or in poverty, these type of stories can feel really nice. Although on one hand I can see some being disheartened or disillusioned, knowing something like that can't happen. I can't tell you how I felt about it as a kid, now as an adult I see it as kinda stupid, the almost comical coincidental nature if it can really donkey kick you out of a story, but I'm no longer the target audience.

Hey, this is me!

Something I found interesting about the response to this comic is that I made it without having any one story in mind, because it's a gripe I have with so many stories. But it received a lot of comments like, "This is obviously about X" with "X" being a wide variety of different stories, many of which I haven't even watched/read. Which I think really shows how prevalent this theme is in fiction.

As mentioned by others, this is something that exists (to varying degrees) in Star Wars, Harry Potter, Naruto, Bleach, and so on. Even Dragon Ball eventually got in on it. Goku just started off as some random monkey boy that Gohan found in the woods. In Z we find out he's actually descended from a race of super space warriors (the most standard among them, Raditz, still being more powerful than any Earthling). Eventually, we find out about Goku's biological father, Bardock, who is also the one saiyan who actually rebelled against Frieza, and with further specials dedicated to him, may be the original Super Saiyan (though non-canon) and just seems like (along with his wife) the one Saiyan who was actually a decent person.

May I ask what part you specifically "don't agree" with? I absolutely understand why these stories are written and why people enjoy them, I just don't think they're ultimately good messages to deliver. I generally have an aversion to stories where the protagonist relies on an external source of validation to affirm their value ("You actually do have value as a person because your ancestors were very valuable people!"). I also feel like this kind of worldbuilding creates a rigid class hierarchy that's completely dependent on familial connections. I have no problems with that sort of society existing within a story, but I don't like when the narrative supports its existence unquestionably.

I agree that the initial premise of Theophilia Wallace would still support a "born-with-it" message of empowerment, but that's only if the story stays on one level of subversion. Not that I'm disagreeing with anything more that you're saying, but my frustration with these kinds of stories is that when I start to notice "blood-based class structure" themes, I'm eagerly waiting for the story to subvert that theme in any way. In this sense, the little girl reading is my author avatar, "Oh! I know the story on the surface seems to support this unjust societal structure, but I'm sure that somehow Theophilia's character is going to be used to expose its flaws and upend their beliefs!"

Except more often than not, the story doesn't go in that direction. Society is correct that capability is an inborn trait, they were just wrong in determining what Theophilia's birthright was. Similarly, a lot of the stories that disappoint me in this regard have clues a lot earlier that this will probably be the theme, but I give too much benefit of the doubt and assume those are just misdirection.

Yeah, these are some ways this sort of narrative could subvert the "inherited powers" trope while delivering a message of empowerment that I find more to my tastes. Something like this is what I imagine the little girl reading is trying to predict in her mind. But she's going to be disappointed later on because she unfortunately expected the story to be more clever than it really was.

I don't agree with that people should never write these kind of stories or that some how all media for kids have to be shoving a deep message down their throats. I think kids like things where the twist is the MC is secretly a mermaid fairy princess. Sometimes these can just be fun stories.

That doesn't mean I like all types of these kind of stories. Never been a fan of most Marvel or DC stuff. I also think the deep message of Pixar's Incredibles is awful. I also preferred Rey being the child of a nobody like set up in Johnson's film.

I do also like the movie October Sky which is about a bunch of teens who want to be rocket engineers even tho their parents are poor and coal miners.

I don't think the takeaway from this is that 'people should never write these kinds of stories' (that should very, very rarely be the takeaway from any kind of meta-literary analysis, because all tropes have some kind of logic and value behind them). It's just that, on the large scale, seeing this trope play out feels like a betrayal of expectations. People who wanted to see an 'underdog' with no support system shake up the world order (and were basically lured in with this premise) end up getting nothing but the world order re-establishing itself, only this time with a new top dog. =/

I agree that most kids probably wouldn't be bothered by this (I never was). But I also think that the idea that maybe the ADULTS who write these stories are writing them because of some conscious or unconscious bias isn't all the way out of left field. If we are repeatedly being told that this is the "easiest" or "most obvious" explanation for a special person to come out of seemingly nowhere, maybe, just maybe, there's a reason behind it.

SOMEONE TALKING SMACK ABOUT MY 2ND FAVORITE PIXAR MOVIE--

...Okay, in all seriousness, I can see why someone would have issues with the Incredibles. ^^;

To be frank, I think the message was supposed to be "people who are different shouldn't be forced to hide who they are and conform to make other people comfortable", and if you're looking any further than that you're reading too much into it. Gotta draw the line somewhere (and you yourself said it's not always about shoving hidden messages down people's throats).

HOWEVER, all the cartoon violence and over-the-top destruction does obscure this message quite a bit. ^^; When 'people who are different' means 'people who can shoot lasers out of their eyes', something's gotta give at some point. And I think they did try to address this when they could...which only contributed to muddying the message.
I enjoyed that; I think it made the movie feel realistic, because it admits that there's really no easy answer to the issue of 'supers'. But I can see how some people could see that and go "but...what are they really trying to say here" and not like what they come up with.

The only reason why I brought it up was that the child in the comic made this statement.

This seems less like what a kid would say and sort of reminds me of those parents who go to Common Sense Media or other sites to complain that girl from Turning Red is a bad influence on children and junk like that.

I don't hate the movie but if you think too hard about the core message, it's sort of messed up. I can also say the same about Lion King, I love the movie but it has sort of a weird message.

To be honest, I think what actually muddies the message of Incredibles is actually Syndrome's character and also that famous line of "If everyone is super, no one will be".

It's kind of easy in my opinion to derive a message of "some people are just naturally gifted and average ungifted people shouldn't bother to do anything to try to achieve their level" considering how Syndrome is portrayed. Of course, not trying to justify what he did but his base opinions should at least have been explored a bit more rather than just used for villainous motivation.

Which actually kind of leads to a separate opinion I have that the nature of certain stories to separate people who are "special" and "not special" is problematic itself as it implies that people who possess some special quality are just naturally superior than those who do not. Which I guess is kinda why I never really considered any story where the protag is part of the "special" group no matter their circumstances of how they got there as that much of an underdog story

Media criticism doesn't mean you're saying, "this should not exist," it means I don't like a certain part of that media and I'm expressing why. Everyone does this, there are countless threads on this forum that complain about things we don't like in our stories. I just wrote a comic about it instead of a forum thread.

Children's media doesn't have to have a message, but very often they do. In fact, I'm sure every children's story we generally consider "good" does make an attempt at having a message. So if you're already creating art with the intent of saying something about the world and how it should operate, you should probably put some thought into whether or not that message is consistent with your actual values.

I find the blunt and uncharacteristically adult style of speech to be funny coming from a child. It contrasts with the narrator's extremely juvenile response.

I want to use The Incredibles as an example of how I can be very critical of a piece of art while still liking it very much. I agree, a lot of underlying themes of The Incredibles is pretty messed up and can easily be interpreted in ways to support ideologies I disagree with greatly.

But I still love the film, it's a strong story with charming characters and a fun and engaging plot. So I can talk about how some of the themes of The Incredibles can get pretty eugenics-y and supportive of Randian objectivism, while still saying, "This was a good film and I'm happy it exists."

It also helps that the movie was thematically consistent. While I don't like the idea of "certain people are born inherently more special than others," the movie never tries to convince us it has a message contrary to that.

That's actually a very valid point, especially considering the plethora of existing superhero characters who have skills and ingenuity, rather than supernatural powers (Iron-Man, Batman). I wish the film/franchise had tried to explore that, because I think they could have made it really fun. ^^

Unfortunately, I never thought about it because...well, I just found it kind of impossible to take Syndrome seriously. ^^; Like, yes, he's a threat, but the valid aspect of his character that concerns feeling inferior to 'supers' is used so little in the story it's quite nearly forgettable, IMO.
If his MAIN goal in the plot had been to manufacture super-powered items and distribute them to the public to "even the playing field", I'm gonna be honest, that could have led to a more interesting story than the one we got. ^^; But instead, it was just introduced as a throwaway end-game concept, while his actual present-day goal was to use his technology to pretend to be a 'super'. =/ Like...he just wanted attention.

Believe it or not, I actually feel the same way. ^^; I don't consume many stories with this setup (I feel like it's boring and overdone...I recently started to read Witch Hat Atelier, but once I realized it was gonna be THIS again I stopped, and now I'm debating continuing...).

But that's why I really wanted to bring this discussion to the forum; I want to see what people who have more experience with the trope have to say about it. I'm STILL shocked that it's apparently a big thing in shonen anime...now that people have explained it, I get it, but I'm surprised I heard so little about that aspect of those stories.

OH MY GOSH
IT'S
IT'S YOU

I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THIS WAS YOUR COMIC; WHAT THE HECK

...That's what I get for never paying attention to people's usernames on this forum...I don't know why I do it... ^^;

Yeah, I feel the same. ^^ Pixar movies especially have a knack for making me love them while ALSO wanting to know and think critically about everything that could be gross and wrong with them.

I didn't realize this was a comic you wrote. Tho I don't really agree with it, I do feel a bit bad. You never consented to have it posted and discussed, heck Tapas sort of discourages users from doing that because I think people should have the option to say if they want people to critique their work or not.

Sorry if I came off as rude.

Incredibles is about society saying everyone is equal when the reality is you are not. There are better people than you and worst people than you, in many ways. Your worth as a human not withstanding, the message is to embrace what makes you better and don't let people say you are not. It's taken to the extreme because of course Dash is faster than you, he's super powered. But that is to drive the point home.

It's no problem, I tend to glaze over usernames too when reading through threads. I just found it to be a pleasant surprise to stumble upon one of my comics being a discussion piece.

No worries, I wasn't offended and I don't think you were rude. I'm actually happy to know my comics are being spread around without my knowledge - it's a sign that people like them well enough to share with others. I also do enjoy when my work prompts discussion from people, whether they agree with my message or not.

Also, one of the main platforms I share my comics on is Reddit, so I've seen much worse comments about my work.

Regarding why this is pretty common in kids' media, well let's face it, kids like flashy stuff, it's why Elsa is statistically more popular than Anna despite Anna being the protag and also with the more proactive personality. I think most stories featuring this type of setting where people are separated into "special" and "normies" and where the protag was part of the "normie" group who gets the powers to become part of the "special" group aren't really trying to push a underdog narrative of "anyone can become special", as Nick says, it's more trying to be an escapist fantasy.

The "normies" becoming "special" is more just an escapist scenario of "what if one day you stopped living a boring life and became super special". This would usually be pushed further with "what if your parents weren't boring salarypeople and are also super special" later. Another common shonen trope is also just the fact that the protag possesses some super unique secret power that no one else has, that makes them more powerful than the other special people. Even though there are prominent "normie" heroes in popular media, actually think about how little kids stories out there where settings have the "special" and "normie" divide actually have a protagonist who is "normie" and can only achieve things through "normie" methods. Hell, a good chunk of those stories don't even have a "normie" character as part of the main cast.

Basically, the story isn't really trying to talk about underdogs or that the common people can become great, it's entertaining you with a power fantasy. Of course, because of this it's very easy to derive a problematic classist message from stuff like the secret bloodline trope, but if your story already has the tone of "people who have powers are just better than people who have no powers" and "people who have stronger powers than other people are just better and more important" then you're already pushing a bad message at that point. Inserting a bloodlines trope is just adding fuel to the fire

If you want an example of a story with a setting with a divide between people who have and don't have powers done well, I'd recommend Mob Psycho 100. I find it has a good message while also being grounded in reality. Yes, there are people who are better at a thing than others are, maybe they are naturals at it too, but that doesn't make them superior. Rather, everyone is good at their own thing and you shouldn't dismiss someone just because they aren't as smart/strong/whatever as you, because they probably excel at something you lack at and can support you while you can support them with what they lack at.

I'm not a fan of this trope either, especially if the story, when starting out, emphasized how underdog the MC was for not coming from a certain heritage or having certain powers. Or how hard work and determination overcomes heritage (ahem, NARUTO). But I do understand it's a form of escapism and we've all fantasized at some point in our lives "what if our family was secretly mega-rich?"

I'd actually say Harry Potter doesn't fit this trope because even from the get-go he was a special prophesized child and it was clear that him surviving Voldemort's killer juice squirt was very special. With Rey —... well, the whole trilogy is a mess :joy:

Long-running stories often come into this problem, I think. Especially in stories involving fighting powerful magical villains. Creators, in order to meet the rising power levels, end up giving their MC some magical heritage powers to be able to defeat the ever-more-powerful villains. The "nature vs nurture" issue is swept to the side, as "nature (heritage)" always wins in these stories.

Side ramble while I'm on this topic — I am a Kingdom Hearts fan. Sora, the MC, so far has the story of being a normal kid with a heart of gold, who gets his strength from friends and connecting with others.

Canonically Sora wasn't even the first choice for his Keyblade — his Keyblade was originally his friend Riku's before the Keyblade decided to change its owner. And the games repeatedly state that it's his kind heart and his friends that is the source of his power. Without his friends and that connection, he stumbles and falters.

Anyway, I'd hate it so much if later down the line, he was revealed to be a reincarnation of a god or something. Please let Sora stay a normal kid who got to where he is because of his kind heart and with the power of friendship :sob: Let his kind heart be his special thing, not some magical heritage.

I think it's probably also important to take note of the kind of lives that kids and teenagers tend to live when considering these stories... Because most kids and teenagers live in very constrained lives, and the "classist" society can probably be seen, through that lens, as an allegory for the parental oversight that dictates their lives. Like a story with a message "You can be anything you want to be, as long as you practice!" would mean nothing to a girl who wants to be a martial artist, but whose parents tell her that she's not allowed to enroll in a martial arts class because it's not for girls. But a story where even though she's "forbidden" from doing something, she manifests those powers anyways, society (and parents) be damned? That's a very nice fantasy. Especially when the secret "REAL" parents involved are super cool and bestowed her with those powers. It's like a direct middle finger to whatever they don't like about their parents (and lets be real, most teens have issues with their parents, even if their parents are good parents).

9 days later

I can't stand this trope, easily one of my least favorite in sci fi, and especially in YA (at least when I was reading it during the 2010s). I think creators look at chosen one stories and forget part of their appeal is that it is an average person chosen for a great task, either through luck or some destiny, who then earns that title within the story via their heroic actions.

Yeah I'm not a fan of the "has secret powers all along" trope.
Like a commenter suggested that maybe my novel protagonist will have latent magical abilities (since witches exist in the novel's world) but I was just :grimacing:. Because the point I try to make with my MC is that she's "special" because she's empathetic and looks at the world in her own unique way. Her only real power is that she's a monster lover.

"Chosen One" stories, ugh :angry:

To me it's a narrative that teaches people to rely on someone else to solve problems for them, instead of taking the initiative to to be proactive and maybe work together to fix things. Pro-apathy propaganda is how I see it

I've always found the concept of 'royal blood gives you magic powers' to be deplorable. As a guy who's against privatized ownership of the earth, I prefer to not throw the word 'fascist' around lightly, but when royalty puts you on a higher social standing AND gives you awesome magical powers that make you more superior to all the peasants, it's...kind of pro-fascism. Maybe that's why the dudes in suits approve so many of these concepts in children's stories.

I find the main 'underdog baiting' in modern shounen takes a different form:
The protagonist is actually the specialist ever, but nobody appreciates it because they're all Big Meanieheads Who Haven't Realized the True Power Of (an unusual weapon, whatever magic path, owning cool magical items)

I love guile heroes who make the most of what they're given, especially when society tells them that's useful, but Isekai especially is overflowing with arrogant, overpowered protagonists who get treated as the underdog because they
A) Got bullied for two chapters before becoming the Coolest, Strongest, Totally Not A Bully Just Putting Those Jerks In Their Place Through Righteous Cruelty
or
B) Everybody thought their power was lame for two chapters before it was revealed to be the Strongest Ever

I will always prefer or protagonist who makes their power strong not through Good Blood Eugenics or One Cool Loophole, but through constant creativity and determination

Meh. I'm fine with this trope. Especially for fantasy Ngl during my Disney research, I've accepting the charm of some of their films and I'm a 22-year old man lmao.

I can see why it seems problematic (not saying that it is because.... I don't think it isn't), but at the same time, I can see why little kids are into sorta stuff. I too was once a little kid. And I thought I was a dragon child for like... a solid ten minutes (still bitter that my brother gaslit me, five-year old me is so gullible oh my GOD).

Also my sister grew up with princesses and she treasures stories like this. She turned out fine so uh... les keep 'em lmao.

1 month later

closed Jul 20, '22

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