Magical Girls, Magical Boys And Feminism

DiegoPalacios 2020-03-22 22:17:26 UTC #22

A show about magical adult women sounds pretty cool.......if you have a comic idea it would be awesome if you go for it!

ben 2020-03-22 22:30:23 UTC #23

omg I’ve been in the middle of a magical woman comic for a while now about a former magical girl/single mom trying to fight the injustices of the magical girl system

DiegoPalacios 2020-03-22 22:31:31 UTC #24

Sounds cool, can you share the link to give it a look?(after studying)

ben 2020-03-22 22:40:55 UTC #25

It’s not online because it’s for a publication!! It will be in the future though

HGohwell 2020-03-22 22:51:00 UTC #26

While this is true, the majority of magical girl shows have a main cast younger than 15 in middle school, a side effect of generally having a lower age range as their main demongraphic. MLP of course ties in with that and the whole strangeness of fandoms overly sexualising shows for younger audiences to an insane degree but I think that's an entirely different can of worms.

This is what I find an interesting part of the entire debate. It is mainly Japanese women/girls who complain about the anti-feminist nature of magical girls, and western viewers who call it empowering and liberating, even arguing loudly against those who are Japanese that they're wrong for it. Very few people seem to appreciate the idea of seeing it from the perspective of the culture it's from, or the idea that messages can be taken from something differ from viewer to viewer (fandoms really are such a mess).

I've had a short noir magical woman comic in the works for the better part of two years. I completed it and was ready to start posting and then life happened and my art moved on so I thought I'd revamp it since I hadn't started posting yet. But hopefully this summer since it's nearing completion again Boom Brilliant will be back on schedule. It's a nearly 30yo magical girl where it's more a job than a destiny thing.

And, as I always do, I recommend Symphogear for one of the main characters Maria being a 22yo magical girl with a job as a government agent/terrorist/idol depending on the season, several obviously women but we're not sure how old they're supposed to be villainous magical girls. And the important factor that the adult girls actually look like adults and the kids look like kids (it's always so weird to me when shows draw supposed adults looking almost indistinguishable from the kids).

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 23:26:56 UTC #27

I think it's more an internet thing than a fandom thing, the internet really gets the worst of humanity out there and it's barely 1% of people who actually comment or interact with the internet actively, so the over-sexualization is mostly less than 1% of degenerates who make and consume it

Edit: also the younger than 15 thing, it's the same for the west like danny phantom or timmy turner they are marketed to younger audiences so the main MC should be reflecting the audience, degenerates using for sex is in noway the fault or plans of the creators, it's the fault of degenerates being degenerates.

yeah, the western world is really insular and believes their problems are universal (when actually they aren't and never will be), I think I'll take the Japanese as knowing more of what they are talking about since it's their culture for the most part, though we can talk about the effects of this in our own culture, and the effects are basically negligible since anime is really niche and is primarily male-dominated (or at least seems to be male-dominated in the west, would have to see the numbers on this one and I wonder if magical girls and boys really is something only girls watch). Though most anime cosplayers are female so it could be that the active ones are males while females usually stick to themselves.

rajillustration 2020-03-23 04:50:28 UTC #28

It's interesting that you bring up Sailor Moon as well because, we tend to think of it strictly in terms of feminism when the Sailor Scouts were largely influenced by Grecian mythology that often had gods who had the powers of both male and female and would just switch genders (and there's quite a few Scouts who do this so often that they seem completely genderfluid).

So, in my opinion, the story carries a lot of feminism--which is great--and while that is A point of Sailor Moon, I don't think that was THE point Sailor Moon was trying to make. Over time we've sort of pidgeonholed Sailor Moon (and other Magical Girl stories) to be a flagship for feminism, especially since there's a need for it and a long history of marketing it that way. But feminism wasn't the sole reason Sailor Moon was made and same with any of those other shows, and so it's not going to be in every single line of the story.

There will be parts that negate feminism entirely because feminism just wasn't why the author was writing it. Sailor Moon, in particular, also leaves a lot open ended in terms to the gender of the individual characters and how they respect their own gender roles.

So my impression and the way I read it, was that Usagi and the other Scouts were clinging to being female and being very girly and feminine and clinging to their given gender roles almost like they were clinging to normalcy, the life they would have lived if they never became a Scout. (and the same is true for Mamaru and his male roles.) The more they learned about their destiny as a reincarnated alien being, the more they realized clinging to those roles was a futile effort because they just aren't human anymore.

So it wasn't about how being a housewife is good or bad or about how any standard female roles are good or bad either, ultimately their sacrifice was outside of gender--it was outside of even being human. It was about leaving their childish human dreams behind and embracing becoming a godlike entity to save mankind.

So there's feminism inside that theme, sure, and I will say it's a progressive show and recommend it to people that want a feminist piece. But the story just isn't entirely "about" feminism, to me. And that's fine. Everyone's allowed to interpret it their own way, I just find that because I wasn't really "in" the fandom, my interpretation is sometimes...different, and that's been true of any story that has a big fandom that I've missed the train on.

As far as "Magical boys" go...unless it's a direct satire from Sailor Moon, will probably only touch on feminism by accident. Yugioh, for instance, is like the opposite of Sailor Moon in a lot of ways, and does some interesting role reversals from your typical "reincarnation of a magical royal child" story (and BOY it goes places), but never really talks about gender roles at all. Like we tend to lump these shows together but many of them just never talk about gender as deeply (or as uniquely) as Sailor Moon did.

HGohwell 2020-03-23 11:21:20 UTC #29

I wish I could agree with you there but it is not just the degenerate fans. In many cases it is the plan of the creators and it is the fault of the creators. This where comparing western animation and anime doesn't quite work because anime goes in knowing that it will have a wide audience and with several demographics while most western animation stays as either dumbed down for kids or Family Guy type stuff. There's little in between. And anyone who's been involved in anime for long will have seen sexualisation of young girls in the show because creators know even if they're not the target audience, they ones spending money are men n their 20s and above who want sexualised young girls. Girl supposedly 12 or 13 in tiny skirts with panty shots and massive boobs? That's these degenerates on the internet and not the fault or plans of the creators? And the fact that magical girls as a whole have progressively grown to play more and more on the loli and moe style to appeal to that being what those otaku's who spend the most money and sexualise the young girls isn't to blame either? Of course they have to make money, but if you're going to pander to a crowd like that you have to take some responsibility for it.

I wouldn't have ever said Sailor Moon was about feminism. And it's not so much about missing a train. Since magical girls are still being produced, and honestly the basics are changing very little from, the kind hearted, power of love princess, it's not really something you can miss the train on. The arguement against them is that the over all concept is anti-feminist, after all. How many main magical girls can you name who are praised for typically masculine qualities? How many of them get powers that aren't linked to their femininity, their kindness and compassion and love (I'm not saying they aren't good things, but you rarely see it presented as the more typically male qualities like courage and protectiveness). The only ones I can name off hand are the odd sporty lead Precure. Mana from Doki Doki in particular was consistently refereed to early on as like Prince Charming, but even that was soon removed in favour of her in a wedding dress. The arguments are less about the specifics and more that the idea of magical girls is you can only have power by becoming and embracing femininity, and their story arcs often follow them grown and accepting their femininity more and more, often going in line with more powerful outfits being more feminine.

Do not start me on YGOs issues with women dear lord. Every time you think it's finally got a grasp on how to write a female character as a person they go and prove you wrong again. Maybe seventh time's the charm.

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-23 13:57:36 UTC #30

HGohwell:

I wish I could agree with you there but it is not just the degenerate fans. In many cases, it is the plan of the creators and it is the fault of the creators. This where comparing western animation and anime doesn't quite work because anime goes in knowing that it will have a wide audience and with several demographics while most western animation stays as either dumbed down for kids or Family Guy type stuff. There's little in between. And anyone who's been involved in anime for long will have seen sexualization of young girls in the show because creators know even if they're not the target audience, they ones spending money are men n their 20s and above who want sexualised young girls. Girl supposedly 12 or 13 in tiny skirts with panty shots and massive boobs? That's these degenerates on the internet and not the fault or plans of the creators? And the fact that magical girls as a whole have progressively grown to play more and more on the loli and moe style to appeal to that being what those otaku's who spend the most money and sexualise the young girls isn't to blame either? Of course they have to make money, but if you're going to pander to a crowd like that you have to take some responsibility for it.

again the sexualization is a western perspective, the Japanese view sex in a completely different light (family sex jokes are for kids in japan), now we might disagree on the creator's intentions, I choose to give them the benefit of the doubt

also can we please talk about how people assume the female audience is buying less than the male audience, or that the males are more catered too then females, I mean please can women have any say on media they consume? does it always have to be "oh this panders to men cause men are the only ones with money" I'm sick of it, women also have money and they buy merch just as much as males too, could it be possible that maybe just maybe women like the dresses and like the poses? and that's why so many females praise the magical girl genre or are we seriously gonna ignore them and just say "MEN" as if men where the primary demographic in absolutely everything in life.

seriously it's like every time women have their own things people (mostly other women) come and start saying "actually we never had our own thing cause look there's one degenerate that likes it, therefore, it is no longer for women" this fucking purity BS is why I can't stand most conversations on these topics.

there is this one, the hight of male traits in a magical girl, is this what feminists wanted? cause I sure as hell love that this exists X'D

Edit: anybody else feels like this is the columbine argument? where they blame media for a problem unrelated to it like trying to find anything to blame or dissecting anything to fit a specific agenda, puritan blaming marly Manson and violent video-games for violence that was the fault of a faulty school and parenting system. Feminist blaming magical girls for girls liking or disliking faminine traits etc.

I really find this conversation so stupid and annoying in the same way I find the colombine argument stupid and annoying, So I'm gonna stop here before I go crazy with annoyance

TAMAnnoying 2020-03-23 14:29:44 UTC #31

It’s ok tho cause every single person I talked to had the realization of “....these arnt cousins...“ usually around the hand touching scene and the self sacrifice scene x3 if anything this helped kids early detective skills to know when companies are f***ing with them.

NickRowler 2020-03-23 14:33:21 UTC #32

I am going to address some of these issues...

I think you should at first indicate what magical girl series you are talking about because there are stuff like PreCure which is made 100% children and does not have the negative sexual tropes (to my knowledge). There is is stuff that is targeted at adult men which does sexualize young girls, which I agree is problematic, but that is not what kids are watching. It is also important to understand that "moe girls" and that style of cutsy anime targeted at men came from guys really being into shojo and stuff like Sailor Moon. That is where you get stuff like Lucky Star which is written by a man.

I will also like to point out that Japan is not as judgmental of short skirts then current America. However, Japan is very strict when it comes to things like cleavage and makeup. The western practice of letting teens wear lowcut tops and a lot of makeup to school probably looks shocking to Japan. I will also like to point out that super short skirts on young girls used to be a common thing in the US in up to the 50s and 60s. It was not a sexualized thing, it was making clothes which allowed more movement before it was more acceptable for girls to just wear pants.

It was super common for these skirts to be so short that you could see their underwear which can be seen in older characters like Mini Mouse and Little Lulu.

HGohwell 2020-03-23 15:22:15 UTC #33

Unfortunately, while it is slowly changing it is still the typical otaku market that is still the front runner in consumption in Japan. Not just men: otakus. We in the west have taken this term into just anime fan but that's not what they are in Japan. The guys who spend all their money on merchandise, take their waifus way too seriously and are were the stereotype of creepy anime guys come from. And yes, it is changing but changing doesn't mean changed and they are still driving the market. In the same way the typical comic book nerd drove the comic book market. Things are changing but that doesn't mean it has. And they aren't the primary demongraphic but they are a demographic that many creators are aware of. And yes, I'm sure there are women want that too, but it remains a mostly male demographic.

And I doubt buy they don't know what they're doing. I mean, I highly doubt when Symphogear went you get a cool martial arts transformation, you get ribbon gymnastics, you get ice skating, you can have gun and you get pole dancing one with sultry looks at the camera, they didn't know what they were doing. I doubt when they gave Chris 4 variations of a sexy bunny girl figure, 1 bikini figure and an upcoming virgin killer sweater figure but only 2 of her magical girl outfit in nearly a decade apart, that they didn't know what they were doing, that the two cute youngsters have pantyshot maid figures as their first figures, but they don't know what audience they're playing to?.

I think saying creators don't know what they're doing infantalises creators a lot. It's their choice. I wish they wouldn't do it, sure, but its their choice and saying it's not sexualising because their view of sex is different is weird to me. Sexualisation is sexualisation. If they see it as more reasonable, then that's a reason, sure. But I don't think you can argue "they see it as ok but that's not their intention". They're doing it to make money, and that's fine, the goal is to make money but to say they don't see it as a big deal but also they're not doing it? Pick a side, either defend it as a culture thing or say we're reading sexualised fanservice that isn't there. Is it just degenerates who sexualise young girls or is it a cultural thing? Please make up your mind.

Also, I woudn't call Magical Girl Ore a show that praised her for boyish qualities since she spent all her time complaining and it was played as "lol a girl turns into a manly man but in a dress isn't it hilarious" and then threw in a a load of ecchi tropes to laugh at too. It was a hilarious anime but simply transforming a girl who still has many of the typically feminine traits, as pretty much the embodiment of the cute clumsy girl and trying to be an idol, into a man's body doesn't at all mean she's being praised for having masculine traits. There was a lot the anime did that was great but it doesn't really do anything in this argument as far as I can see.

I seem to remember I said when this was first brought up that the sexualisation of girls of a young age and of media meant for kids was another can of worms that would get us way off track that I would rather not open, so thank you for perusing that and then getting annoyed. And again, I will point out I'm looking at discussion of the differences in the western view and eastern view and have consistently pointed out arguments on both sides, and consistently reiterated I'm looking at discussion and people take different things from the same media because we're all different.

It seems you keep returning just to arguer a focused point than have a discussion and if you're not interested in a reasonable debate and only wish to prove yourself right but calling things stupid and annoying when not told you've made an excellent point and you win the argument your view is the only view, then yes it's best you didn't return.

I will admit that example was a particularly heavy handed exaggerated example that rarely shoes up in magical girl shows attempting not to be ecchi (actually as I think about it, I might have been thinking about YGO since it was brought up and, as I say, YGO's issues with women are another mess of its own).

And yes, the ones aimed at kids kids rarely have the sexualisation and what the other side of the argument would say about swinging too far the other way and almost putting innocence on a pedestal to an extreme and any villain who's a woman has a high chance of being curvy and proud of her body. Looking at the difference between the Dark Precure and Precure 5, and similar for that. There's a message that you have to wear you miniskirt in the right way to avoid being slutty ect but that's not the point of right now.

It's when you bump up into the teenager area it starts. A few examples off the top of my head:

As I mentioned Symphogear above. Does a great many things right, stumbles every now and again and got more and more obvious with its sexualised content as time went on, although perhaps to do with the girls getting older, although I continue to hate the decisions to make the child sex trafficking victim the fanservice girl but that's another topic.
I've seen many people in Japanese fandoms mention the very style of things like PMMM and the copy cats is designed to appeal to the moe girl look. Slightly more obvious than that, the designs in the spinoffs Kazumi Magica and Suzane Magica are far more sexualised, although Suzane at least had older girls and was specifically aiming for the top end of the demographic.
Daybreak Illusion, pitched itself at roughly the same market as PMMM with a style closer to Ojamajo Doremi and Heartcatch Precure. It did many things right and had a reasonable premise, until it got about half way through and the plot to impregnate a 13yo girl began.
And this is of course without touching on the edgelord magical girl shows that decided to take things another step like Magical Girl Site and the issues over Swimswim in Magical Girl Rising Project.

This is very true. I think the issue many people in the west have with panty shots in particular isn't the underwear itself, it's way it's framed and the way its worked in. Precures, for instance, often wear either frilly undercoats or shorts under their skirts so the camera can pan around as necessary for the most dynamic shots while fighting and so they don't have to worry about acrobatics, and these are scenes where seeing their underwear would (usually) be the least of your worries because you're watching the action. However, think of most panty shots in anime, who are they written in? the camera will suddenly drop so you can see under their skirt as they walk or run or stand, in an almost voyeuristic way. Or they're just talking and a sudden gust of wind will come out of nowhere and do nothing buy blow up the girls skirt. Or they drop the camera so you can see under their skirt but when it obscures the action their actually doing, this example in particular annoys me, because they are sacrificing clarity of action for cheap fanservice. I, personally, don't think there's that much sexual about some underwear, but it's the way its shoehorned in that makes it seem dirty. Like the animators are going "hey, wanna see something naughty?" and then flash their panties like it's supposed to be sexy fanservice. Does that make sense?