Magical Girls, Magical Boys And Feminism

HGohwell 2020-03-22 16:41:40 UTC #1

So, before I get into this I want to make it clear that this obviously varies hugely series to series, so for the purpose of this debate, we're considering the basic, generic, typical magical girl. Cute mascot, skirt, poof, ruffles, often secretly a princess, using magical attacks more than fights, glittery transformation sequence, power of truth, love and justice. The concept of a magical girl, an ordinary girl who transforms into someone beautiful and regal with the power of love. The typical disney princess of magical girls.

So, with that important bit out the way, onto the discussion. It one I've mentioned every now and again. It's not an argument you'll really have seen unless you're pretty deep in the magical girl fandoms but with the rise of magical boys again it's coming up more and more.

Are magical girls feminist or not? It's fascinating argument that often falls down the lines of eastern and western divides. So, I'm curious which side people here fall on.

Here's the two sides of the argument:

Magical girls are feminist. They are the epitome of taking a typically male orientated genre (sentai/power rangers) and turning it into something for girls. The main characters who are generally painfully average can become queens and princesses without giving up their power. It is their power and femininity that is powerful. They are the heroes to their love interests. They are proof that you don't need to discard femininity for power. These genres generally keep the girls non-sexualised as well. This is generally the same side as considers magical boys a backwards step as it's making a haven for girls a place for boys. Having boy characters given the same power as the girls is another example of girls not being allowed their own place.

Magical girls are not feminist. They tell girls that the only way to have power is to be feminine. And the right sort of feminine. Women who are too masculine, or sexy, are generally villains. Even sporty girls have to be feminine in other ways, cooks or big sisters who look after their siblings or secretly interested in girly and cute things. You can never be too far from the feminine. Even the non-sexualised nature is played up to appeal to men who want loli characters and are sexualised via their purity and innocence. the very fact that you had to "feminise" a genre rather than simply putting in female characters or an all female cast is insulting. It's reinforcing gender stereotypes. This side to also the side that considers magical boys a good thing, since putting boys characters into the typically girly positions and roles is pushing the gender stereotypes better than completely reworking a genre.

Now obviously it depends entirely on what you take from things, and obviously there are positions between these. But I was simply very curious as to where people fell on this debate. What do you guys think?

lwflouisa 2020-03-22 17:05:33 UTC #3

Let me put it another way, why just magical girls and magical boys? I don't mean radical binary smashing. I mean magical girls who are born male, and magical boys who are born female?

HGohwell 2020-03-22 17:14:59 UTC #4

Because it's magical boys and magical girls that had massively popular world wide franchise. It's not radical, Magical Boy is a fantastic comic that exists, as is Sleepless Domain, but so far the only smash hit anime I know that include characters that aren't just magical boy or girl magical people are Symphogear and Sailor Moon and even those aren't main characters.

It also has little to do with the debate as to weather magical girls enforce gender stereotypes or are empowering and whether magical boys are men encroaching on a feminist space or breaking gender stereotypes. Going "what about this" doesn't really do anything for the argument either way. Nor does it change the fact that no matter what they were born as they would still be having this issue.

NickRowler 2020-03-22 17:21:07 UTC #5

I'm not going to make my argument of wether it is feminist because I feel like that word means different things to different people. I am going to use 'female empowerment" instead.

I am more familiar with fashion dolls however I feel like there is a lot of cross over with what they are presenting and who they are targeting.

I think these type of series can be beneficial to girls because it is a show which puts girls in a role of power. These shows focus on having a diverse group of girls working together and forming friendships while I feel like a lot of female characters in male dominated media are meant to hate each other and not have female friends. It also allows character to present themselves as feminine with out having to deal with societal pressure that labels femininity or girly things as bad. And I feel like young girls who are not into this stuff or relate to more tomboy girls are just not going to watch the shows. I don't think it is fair to say that magical girls shouldn't exist because not all girls like that, I think it is important to have diverse media and some of that does include super girly stuff.

Not necessarily. I think having magical boys allows boys to also experience a feminine side. I don't think that takes away from magical girls. Similarly, it is mostly there to add more option for people to watch and people who don't like that are free not to watch it. The whole line about "girls not being allowed their own place" does come off a bit TERF-ish imo.

DiegoPalacios 2020-03-22 17:21:10 UTC #6

How feminist or non feminist are the magical girls will depend of the author`s intent. So it is not a thing related to the genre per se.

I will use Sailor Moon as an example, because it is the most iconic series of the genre and considered by many the starter of the popularity of magical girls:

In Sailor Moon, all the sailor scouts wore the same cute feminine uniform. (in different colors) But aside from that, their personalities varied a lot. You had conventionally feminine girls like Sailor moon and Sailor Mercury, tomboys like Sailor Mars and Sailor Jupiter too. There`s even the extreme case of Sailor Uranus, who dressed with male clothes in her normal life and wore short hair.

So it`s not like being feminine is the only way of being a badass. It just showed that being badass AND feminine are not mutually exclusive.

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 17:23:40 UTC #7

I think people have too much time in their hands, and also magical boys are geared towards the same market as magical girls I.E girls so A) it's more like eye candy than actually giving a message of boys are strong and B) the industry is giving the market what they want, I.E girls have more say on media and in turn more power over said media so I don't see the issue.

and the anti-feminist one is more of destroying stereotypes, regardless if those stereotypes are something bad, good or actually true.

Like magical girls are bad cause they say that femininity is power and only traditional femininity works, ignoring that most of these series are about girls being brave and fighting forces that no other than they can as a team fight, and pushes the message of girls are powerful and should work together to overcome the odds. And magical boys are good cause boys are in frilly dresses, ignoring the fact that they are fighting with powers and overcoming the odds with violence and friendship which are common traditional male traits that the argument is saying should be destroyed for being stereotypes and gender norms.

also, the argument of women losing their place cause boys are inside now is the same argument Males use when they are talking about females entering traditionally male rolls I.E It destroys the sanctity of our boys club as a boys thing (our space). It destroys the sanctity of magical girls as a girls thing (our space)

so yeah both arguments are flawed and I think people need to get a hobby

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 17:26:23 UTC #8

let's not forget the very progressive relationship she had with her "cousin" *redacted cause 4kids might be watching :X

DiegoPalacios 2020-03-22 17:27:46 UTC #9

Because aparently, for 4kids, unintentional incest subtext is less awkward.....am i right? XD

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 17:29:21 UTC #10

SWEEET HOME ALABAMA
Aaah 90s America where incest is more accepted than gays, never change 90s America cause I love to watch you burn

DiegoPalacios 2020-03-22 17:31:59 UTC #11

Also....the fact that the romantic subtext was not taken away, means that didn`t work on removing the lesbianism....it only added the incest.

HGohwell 2020-03-22 17:38:07 UTC #12

Love you guys picking out specific examples despite me clearly saying the concept of the typical magical girl in the same way we have the concept of a Disney princess or the concept of a Bond girl, you can always pick out specific examples but that doesn't change the concept, and reminding me that author intent and series matters despite the first sentence I wrote acknowledging that but whatever. I'll clarify.

The debate is is the concept of magical girls who get their power through femininity empowering or reinforcing gender stereotypes. And are magical boys bringing boys into a space used to empower young girls and even making a mockery of it (note most magical boys are merely for comedy) or is it breaking gender stereotypes.

Or for a more western version in a similar: is a Bond girl empowering because she embraces her sexuality or is she a reinforcement of gender roles as just something pretty.

indagold 2020-03-22 17:42:24 UTC #13

I mean people can claim anything is feminist nowadays...personally i'd chalk something up to a feminist piece if its trying to make a statement. Bunch of girls doing cutesy things and fighting crime isn't really a statement, cutesy girls doing cutesy things that critique societal expectations of women might be.

DokiDokiTsuna 2020-03-22 17:45:42 UTC #14

This is very interesting...I hope it leads to a good discussion~

I have just one problem with that...not all magical girls are part of superhero teams. I'm pretty sure what's usually considered the very first "magical girl anime" (I think it was called 'A Little Witch Sara'?) was not made as an equivalent to any male-dominated genre at the time; it was just a little girl helping out her community with her powers.

There are also other kinds of magical girls...for instance, the "my idiot friend from another dimension" type, where the magical girl is usually a secondary MC partnered with a normal human MC (like Ultra Maniac), and her job is to improve that MC's life...or just goof it up with good intentions.
There are also magical girls who, despite being part of teams, don't necessarily "fight" evil physically...they tend to use their magic for more mundane problems, like bullying or lost pets (like Ojamajo Doremi).

Neither of these are "girl versions" of male-dominated genres that I can think of...any feminist empowerment provided by the magical girl figure probably goes much deeper than "making space for girls in a boys' club".

Errgh...I know I kinda seemed like this was my stance in an earlier post, but...I think my issue with that was specific to Precure, given its history and what it represents for the magical girl genre. I don't really have a problem with magical boys existing as a concept.

I mean, boys with magical powers already exist; "magical boys" are just a more feminine version of the same thing. And just as girls now get to have access to more traditionally-masculine presentation if they want it, I think it's a good thing that boys are finally getting the same option.

Oddly enough, this reminded me of one of the very first Precure MC's (Nagisa/Cure Black) who basically sucks at everything except playing lacrosse. ^^; I guess you could say her "but she's still feminine" trait would be that she has a huge crush on this guy for the majority of the series...but I think it's kind of sad, in a way, that the fact that she's in love can somehow be painted as a "girly-girl" thing...as if boys don't fall in love or have crushes.

The same goes for all of those traits: sure, I'll concede that they are traditional feminine qualities. But they shouldn't be looked at as "girly-girl penalties" to keep otherwise more masculine girls within acceptable femininity levels.
Like...if I create a female character who likes to cook, I did it because I want her to have a fun hobby, not because I want her to represent the ideal housewife. I like to cook, and frankly it has nothing to do with my gender identity (it has more to do with the fact that I like to eat~). Painting such things as otherwise this late in the game creates more problems than it solves; it's encouraging people to break gender roles and yet reinforcing them at the same time.

...Okay, but this is true. =/

Dammit, I see how this makes sense, too...

...I really think I'm somewhere in between both "sides": I have problems with both viewpoints (and agreements with both viewpoints). If I had to answer the question myself, I'd say magical girls are a feminist concept, in that they allow a girl to be a main character in her story and have agency and importance.

But whether they are feminist in execution (which comes down to evaluating all the tropes, as the OP has basically done) is...kind of a case-by-case thing?? I mean, for every magical girl who's supposed to be a good, wholesome role model for young girls, or a strong character in her own right, there's another who was simply created to be cute and do all the usual cute magical girl things and sell mousepads.

The same goes for magical boys...whether they are empowering or not depends on who makes them and what their intentions are. And to be honest it's kind of worrying to me that most of the ones I've seen look super...slutty, for lack of a better word?? Like is this actually the birth of a genre spinoff, or is it just a fetish trend that'll go away in a few years? I'm having trouble believing that it could be anything but the latter...

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 17:48:32 UTC #15

never gave an example, only used the genres inherit troupes I.E girls transform and work together to defeat BBEG with magical violent beam of magic.

unknown_user 2020-03-22 17:49:16 UTC #16

There are many different kinds of feminism. Due to your own arguments, it's clearly seen that magical girls are feminists by one definition and not feminist by another. Everything depends on your base definition of what does it mean to be feminist.

NickRowler 2020-03-22 17:49:20 UTC #17

I don't think it is fair to compare magical girls to Bond girls. Most magical girl series are targeted as kids and teens while Bond girls are targeted at adults. Bond girls are also secondary characters to a male lead while magical girls are the main characters.

I also don't think deconstructing a genre is a bad thing. Someone can love superhero films while also being open to making fun of them and the tropes. I think the same can be done with magical girls.

Super Sentai like shows are sort of a male version of magical girls, and it too is filled with dumb tropes that people point out. But I think those tropes sort of tie back into the charm of the series. It is like how Monster High fans do think it is ridiculous that the girls wear high heals when playing sports and have high heal slippers.

darthmongoose 2020-03-22 18:07:48 UTC #18

Magical Girls actually predate Sentai and were probably never intended as a counterpart to that genre when they originated as just sort of "comics for girls about girls who wear cute clothes and use magic to help people". The earliest example agreed on as a "Magical Girl" was in 1962, while Super sentai, and even the precusor, Kamen Rider, are from the 70s. The association of magical girls with sentai probably originates from Sailor Moon, which as a follow on from Sailor V took things up a notch for the sequel by taking magical girls and adding in a team element; though the original plan for the manga was less sentai-esque, because the mangaka wanted them all to have different outfits, and the push for matching uniforms came from the editor/publisher side. After the success of Sailor Moon, there were a bunch of other Magical Girl teams, and then following from that, subversions involving magical boys or darker takes on the genre, like Madoka.

As to whether they're feminist or not... that's a broad question, you might as well ask "Are female superheroes feminist?"; the answer is... it's complicated and it depends on how they're done, and sometimes they can be progressive or feminist in some ways, but problematic in others within a single work.

From my perspective, the tropes and aesthetic of magical girls can be a fantastic place to explore questions of gender. Magical Boy does this really well, in my opinion, by using the transformation element and theme of "feminine empowerment" to explore the feelings of the transgender male protagonist and his relationship with his male identity in a role that enforces feminine dress due to the traditions of the genre. He keeps being told to celebrate his femininity despite very clearly wanting to be recognised as male, and the transformation causes him a great deal of dysphoria. It's a brilliant use of the tropes of the genre, and the way it questions gender roles and identities to me is absolutely in keeping with modern intersectional feminism.

So.... magical girls/boys/folk CAN be feminist, certainly! ...But no single work can ever represent every possible way to be a heroic girl or woman, or to be heroic in a feminine role or aesthetic, and magical girl works can also contain elements that might be exploitative of young women (fanservice etc.). There's still plenty of space for new takes on the genre that further examine gender roles and expectations. From a meta-textual standpoint, magical girls have inspired many female, Nonbinary and transgender creators to make comics and animation. Cardcaptor Sakura was pretty much my gateway to comics, as an adventure story with a female character who could wield magic and a sword but also enjoyed feminine clothes and activities and even had Gay and Bi characters. I may not have got into making comics without that manga, and when you look at shows like Netflix She-Ra and Steven Universe, you can see the influence of stuff like Sailor Moon and how these series were a source of inspiration to many of the people who are pushing media in a progressive direction during their formative years.

HGohwell 2020-03-22 18:09:33 UTC #19

This is all very true and yeah one of the earliest things I remember as a magical girl was a girl with a flower mirror thing who changed her appearance or something (I think she was searching for her father but I was very young). But, the reason I omitted this part of their history is because it's not the typical magical girl most people imagine these days. The typical magical girl these days is the magical girl warrior type from Percure and Sailor Moon and more and more that does lean into just a girl version of sentai. The older magical girls probably wouldn't even be counted as such these days.

Ah, I didn't think that too much. It's just something I see come up every time I magical boy show is suggested. The whole "but magical girls are for girls why do boys need to get in on everything?" which as I think I mentioned in my previous post, ignores a lot of these magical boys still being aimed at girls, although perhaps just slightly older girls.

While I wouldn't consider them as keeping the girls acceptably feminine, many people feel this is exactly what it is. In the same way previously someone mentioned the Strong Female Protagonist, who gives up so much of her femininity to be such but then has to have something feminine like a secret of shopping. And, especially in Japanese fandoms, it's mentioned these traditionally feminine qualities feel put in there to encourage women to be traditionally feminine.

This is sorta worrying too, as I mentioned above, a lot of them are also played for comedy like "lol boys in frilly feminine stuff how emasculating isn't femininity hilarious". Boueibu has been giving it a good go at lasting and has been slooooowly moving from fourth wall breaking comedy because lol magical boys to becoming a smarter comedy where the characters are funny not the concept. Whether it's going to last is another matter, but it's got another animation announced for next year (I think) and it remains to be seen how TMM's spin off goes, so we'll have to wait and see on if it plays out into something more than just a cheap trend or becomes a serious thing.

HGohwell 2020-03-22 18:26:40 UTC #20

darthmongoose:

Magical Girls actually predate Sentai and were probably never intended as a counterpart to that genre when they originated as just sort of "comics for girls about girls who wear cute clothes and use magic to help people". The earliest example agreed on as a "Magical Girl" was in 1962, while Super sentai, and even the precusor, Kamen Rider, are from the 70s. The association of magical girls with sentai probably originates from Sailor Moon, which as a follow on from Sailor V took things up a notch for the sequel by taking magical girls and adding in a team element; though the original plan for the manga was less sentai-esque, because the mangaka wanted them all to have different outfits, and the push for matching uniforms came from the editor/publisher side. After the success of Sailor Moon, there were a bunch of other Magical Girl teams, and then following from that, subversions involving magical boys or darker takes on the genre, like Madoka.

I'll just pop this here to save me retyping because you posted just before I did or I would have included both to respond to.

Just highlighting praise for Magical Boy in general. It's a fantastic example of both what a magical girl story is at its best and is all about (or should be in my opinion) and dealing the LGBT issues.

Yes, and on this specific thing, he was constantly told to celebrate traditional femininity, which was a lovely touch. Because, as we know, there were female goddesses of things like war and knowledge and wrath and dear lord Hera please stop, but those things are often forgotten, and it was the traditionally soft "girly" side of femininity like grace and delicacy. One of the little things I really appreciated but also had me screaming at the mother on my screen.

This is very true. The fanservice aspect in particular concerns me given the age of a lot of these magical girl. If we must do that can we at least have magical women (I fight for magical women all the time not just because of this though just because I really way adult magical girls, it's not fair only teenagers get it).

Honestly, that's really lovely. CCS was one of the first anime I was ever introduced to as well and I always love how seamlessly they integrated representation that I could know and understand at a young age and didn't feel out of place or feel the need to ask questions. It was just there naturally. I wish more shows had that level of writing (and the balls to do it).

IdiotWithPencil 2020-03-22 22:01:38 UTC #21

well on the teen thing, you got to remember that for japan their 18 is 16 so to them they already are adult women if not close to it, if this is wrong or right I can't say or want to since it's their culture they can deal with it.

on the fanservice side I think it's like with MLP that the moment they learned they had an adult male audience it went more into magical fights than when it was just a cute show with morals for girls, it's pandering but not to the extent where they would off put the main demographic (little and teen girls).

now if it's feminist or anti-feminist I would say it's neither and say it's more Japanese (another reason why I hate this western opinion about anime, it isn't our culture so a lot of the messages are lost by cultural clash) japan famously doesn't see sexuality and sex the same way the west does, they see it more freely and funny (most adult sex jokes of the west are teens and kids jokes in the east) so if the message is feminist or anti-feminist it would depend on what bias the author actually has. And would be as they say Cultural appropriation (god do I hate that concept)

to me personally, I just see it as another anime cliche found in millions of other animes (even in shoujo and seinen for women have this so eh maybe female readers find it funny or something that does happen who knows)