Opinion on the "virgin loser" type of character archetype (an by extention, real people)?

skicoak 2019-07-28 04:18:52 UTC #105

Not suggesting it does. Made it clear in my original post that I wasn't part of the rest of the debate.

So you're saying you're unwilling to accept any medical study ? Ever?

AceRagz 2019-07-28 04:25:07 UTC #106

The research was not done in a strict controlled environment and the authors admit that there are other factors that still need to be ruled out. To me this is incomplete research if even the authors call for further research. I would accept it if they said they narrowed it down strictly to ejaculation. But they admitted they could not confirm it protects against prostrate cancer.

SleepingPoppy 2019-07-28 04:39:56 UTC #107

To be fair I don't think Ski is trying to say "this is fact", but "this idea has some merit and consideration in medical studies".

It also doesn't matter to the main thing? Picking at the research seems super pointless in the larger context.

AceRagz 2019-07-28 04:44:23 UTC #108

I will admit Ski isn't pushing it as fact but LT has. I think I've been debating with LT to the point that I'm picking apart everything so I do apologize to you Ski.

skicoak 2019-07-28 04:45:37 UTC #109

Well, more importantly ...Doctor's think it has merit and consideration. And they want to conduct further reviews.

I just draw funny pictures

Darth_Biomech 2019-07-28 07:40:26 UTC #110

So I did encountered a guy who thinks that everybody who wants relationship but can't get it (Or, you know, the original description of "involuntary celibate") is an incel.

It absolutely is. A friendzone is not when a girl says "you are only a friend to me", it's when a girl keeps you around and throws hints that "maybe you have chance if you'll try a bit more", but in reality she just blatantly using the other guy in order to get free help, or attention from eager fool who tries to impress in hopes for a relationship, manipulating and keeping him around in a rubberbanding-kind of way. There's no prospects of any relationship, naturally, since for her he's just a sucker and a free source of money and labor.
Thankfully, breaking out of that friendzone requires just two steps: 1. Realize what's going on 2. Cease interactions with that person.

SleepingPoppy 2019-07-28 07:48:54 UTC #111

The concept of the friendzone is the idea of being stuck in a zone of friendship when it's not the relationship you want. A person COULD be manipulative about those feelings if theyr'e aware of them, but that's not an inherent aspect to the popular or common use of the word.

Jenny-Toons 2019-07-28 13:16:11 UTC #112

Kinda glad the whole "Incel" topic died down, because that was NOT a can of worms I wanted to touch.

As for my opinion -- I find it laughable. It feels like there's always two types for this trope: the "virgin" who's bitter about being a "virgin" and blaming others for this fact or the "virgin" whose friends make it their mission to help them have sex. But one common idea is that they're never happy because they're a "virgin". It happens in real life, and I think part of why it continues to happen is because of these very tropes in media, combined with environments at home.

Just like there are parents who don't teach their kids the difference between reality and fiction (another can of worms), there are parents who don't teach their kids that while having safe sex is important, you don't have to HAVE sex if you don't want to. It's not something that should label you.

That's kinda why I never cared too much about that. My folks taught me that there's more to life than sex, but that it was also ok if I wanted to have sex -- just have it with someone who respects you and someone you trust. In my high school, a lot of my peers were having sex with people they didn't even like sexually. A lot of times, it wasn't even pleasurable for them. But they wanted to have sex to not be "virgins".

I would like to think a lot of us are able to look at such a trope and know it shouldn't reflect our own lives. But as you can still see today, that doesn't always work out. Case in point with the Incel topic above: If you're overly obsessed with being sexual, to the point of thinking that's all that defies you, you basically spiral downward, and it's not healthy for you or for the people around you.

All I can say is that sex is nice, but so is masturbation, and so is doing anything else you like. And sexual relationships aren't the only relationships out there. I guess it's still a challenge to balance "discovering yourself sexually and being comfortable" and "knowing yourself sexually or asexually doesn't solely defy your person"

LT1986 2019-07-28 13:37:13 UTC #113

I'm going to start reading a few posts after I return from church. I want to state a few things first. I am not an incel, alpha male, omega male, forever alone, or any other similar term. I am a hybrid. I have strengths of an alpha and weaknesses of an incel. I follow Proverbs 31:9. I know that the scripture is talking about speaking the Word for others, and literally defending people that need help from bullies or needing food, clothing, etc. This also applies to the demonization of nice guys that struggle with women. I don't like using new terms that a lot of people are not familiar with, but I'm going to use one and yes I will give the name of the person that I got it from this time. I'm only doing this, because the video he made was to inform everyone of the term. The other people that I mentioned didn't make their videos with the strong intentions that the man I'm going to mention did. I'm a zeta male. Paul Elam made a video about the definition of this term. This is why I speak on the incel issue the way that I do. I'm not taking sides. Here's something that will show that. Incels, forever alone guys, etc. need to stop complaining and start fixing their problems. Now just because they are responsible, doesn't mean that some of their problems were not caused by outside sources. They are responsible for fixing the problems that they have that were self inflicted and the problems that were caused by other people. Some of the sociological problems were caused/influenced/or whatever term we want to use by following the so-called rules.

Why are romance novels and comics very popular on this website? Why does Harlow's hierchy of needs state that sex needs to come before self-actualization, which includes the purpose statement that I made? Purposes include boxing, motivational speaking, nursing, etc. at high levels. Why does Sigmund Freud state that everything we do springs from two things? These things are the sex urge and the desire to be great. Anyone can quickly look up the hierchy of needs pyramid. Now the Sigmund Freud statement can be found in Dale Carnegie's book that is titled "How to Win Friends and Influence People" towards the beginning of chapter 2. What page number it is on depends on the version of the book that you read. My book says page 17 and it is in the fifth paragraph. I can give more evidence, but I don't because I don't always require evidence from points that people have been making. Most of my posts have been me stating that I agree with a lot of the points that people are making. I will only ask for evidence if a post seems a little too extreme. That is why I'm going to address the prostate cancer statement that I made before the end of this post..

Remember that I said that I'm taking an unbias look at the matter. Now I don't associate with a lot of incels, because of the drowning person analogy. If you try to help some people that are drowning, they are panicking so much that they don't care if they pull you down with them. Now alpha males and sexually active women that don't like incels this point is on your side. Here's another point that is on your side. The way that incels, or whatever terms we want to use, wish death on people, don't think that they need to lose weight, socialize more, think that all women and alpha males are the same, constantly shout hatred with no facts, is wrong. People have already been giving them real solutions. Some of these people are the sexually active women that don't like them and alpha males. I believe that one issue that the guys might have with taking the advice is that some of the people with these labels gave them advice that put them in this situation in the first place.

Now I'm going to give a small amount of evidence on the statement that I made about men getting prostate cancer. Before I give the link, please here me out. Just because the following link backs what I say, that doesn't mean that there aren't videos that state the opposite. The point is made at the 2 minutes and 50 seconds point in the video.

therealbereth 2019-07-28 13:51:29 UTC #114

Are you really so intent on people proving you wrong all the time that you can't simply drop the topic? We've moved past the incel conversation already.

Have to edit because the topic is closed. Anyway, if anyone's scrolling through here? Read these articles and really question why anyone should normalize a debate about incels while these people are literally organizing killing sprees.

Here are some articles that actually pick the phenomenon—the link between misogyny and/or incels and the far right—apart:

People die because of incels' obsession with "their" women. And THAT is why I'm tired of this debate. Because it normalizes what shouldn't be normalized. It grants incels leeway in their visceral hate, justifies their hate even to a degree where we have started to discuss mere technicalities. We've run right into the straw men and are now treating incels as if they're on the same level.

But they're not. They're one stage before literal murder.

TAMAnnoying 2019-07-28 14:46:42 UTC #115

wft? they're debating, he made a valid point that if experts can be wrong then who is it that we can rely on if the information he is receiving is from "experts" he's looking for clarification and Ski added more citations. People are debating. We can get a little aggressive sometimes but we can also remind each other to be more chill without picking fights.

Darth_Biomech 2019-07-28 14:49:01 UTC #116

I dunno, maybe because he lived a century ago and was only a pioneer of the psychiatry and not an end-all authority on it? Almost all that he had claimed was wrong.

LT1986 2019-07-28 14:51:15 UTC #117

I haven't been proven wrong one time. These two statements are part of the problem. This is a form of narcissism. You blame others, pretend like you are not comprehending the information that has been presented to you, and pretend like both sides are not at fault. I've proven everything that I've said so far. I've acknowledged the statements that others have made so far have been mostly true, too. Now as I continue reading posts, I might be proven wrong. Now I do understand that what I'm participating in right now is a form of narcissistic abuse to others. It is not narcissistic abuse to me because I understand the art of war tactics, like talking about the subject, am not getting upset, getting things accomplished in my personal life, etc. Keep in mind the points that I just made. These statements aren't new to me. If you want to go in circles by saying things like you give up, by saying let's move on because I have been proven wrong etc. go ahead. If you and others really want me to stop, I'll do it. That doesn't mean that I'm wrong.

AceRagz 2019-07-28 14:52:49 UTC #118

It's like talking to a brick wall with this guy. Again with these rules! These rules you keep bringing up are pointless! These rules you keep bringing up are rules that they self imposed upon themselves! These so called rules you bring up as well are more akin to the rules parents tell you because they are afraid no one is going to hire you because you look like a 1980's punk kid!

If there is any rules to dating its the same ones that go hand in hand with being a decent person Rule 1: Don't rape people Rule 2: Don't push unwanted physical contact on other people.

Now as far as incels go you tore your own argument apart awhile back.

Incels as a movement have given up on having relationships they have become about being bitter towards women and men that have had sex. They even trash talk gay men!

And now back to that quote.....

What is wrong with dating a woman that is settling? This should be the dream girl for them! If a woman is willing to lower her standards isn't that what they are always complaining about that they wish would happen? Of course that is the term you are using that they are settling but when in actuality women that are willing to go out with a different type of person they normally wouldn't often are victims of bad relationships. Some are tired of the bad boy types they go out with, or the cheaters they may have gone out with, or guys that were self centered and they are actively choosing to give someone else a chance. They look for someone they usually might overlook because they hope it might change the type of relationship they usually wind up with. There is nothing wrong with that.

Next up....unattractive women.... seriously? You want to play that card? For someone that goes on about standing up to bullies yet you toss unattractive in there right next to cheating women and gold diggers.... And so that you don't have to ask I have dated women that would not be considered traditionally beautiful. I've dated women that were overweight, women underweight, women with less feminine qualities than others. And you know what? They had great personalities and we wound up having a great time. Another shocker I'm not the most attractive guy either.

Back to incels though. They have given up because it has stopped being about getting a relationship and is more about punishing women now. Not all of them I will admit but those that go to these groups for support often get swept up into this mindset. For some they feel if they work hard enough they can get those really hot women they drool over. There are so many hang ups in the incel movement that have lead up to this. The movement is about bullying people, its about punishing others for having the things they lack.

I have watched videos too and I have watched those from former members of the incel movement and they often say what got them ot of the movement was the realization that the way they were acting was unhealthy for themselves. They realized they were hurting themselves the most. They started by stopping the blaming of others and looked at their own behavior and worked to stop viewing women as something they should be rewarded with. That they were not entitled to sex, that they had to make changes to better themselves.

And a common thread that these former incels all shared was..... they created these situations for themselves! Most of the factors that lead them to being an incel had been self imposed mistakes.

AceRagz 2019-07-28 14:55:34 UTC #119

You're not the only one getting things done. I'm sitting here working on scripts and pages while discussing this.

LordVincent 2019-07-28 15:05:58 UTC #120

I'm seeing Freud's name thrown in here and would just like to mention: Freud was a rabid sexist. If you read on about his psychological theories, he tends to blame women or the mother whenever he gets a chance. He believed women were weak, vain and lacked sense. The only reason his theories are still brought up in psychology classes today is so that people can understand where modern psychology has its roots. It is certainly not intended to be interpreted out of context; these theories are outdated and nearly nothing applies as it was originally suggested.

Merle 2019-07-28 15:19:49 UTC #121

I can one up this claim, having taken many psychology classes and coming from a family of psychologists. Nothing Freud has said should be taken at face value at all, especially not his weird claims about relationships and human developement. I´m actually terrified as to how much his name is still thrown around bc. it´s usually the first (and then often the only) thing people hear that swiftly breach into the realm of psychology.
Even so, Freud would be turning in his grave hearing about Alpha, beta and zeta males. That sounds like a bad fanfic, coming from a self and male centered world view. Please stop using these words with a serious tone, or noone will take you serious.
Also, your personal religion doesn´t apply to the majority of people, keep this in mind when you cite from that book.

azzy-m 2019-07-28 15:29:33 UTC #122

I've placed it into my pile of "Tropes that I dislike, but for some reason keeps getting used by other people richer and more famous than me" along with love triangles and "You are not so different, you and I"

LT1986 2019-07-28 16:13:27 UTC #123

I've been looking at some of the comments and it is proven that people want to continue to use art of war tactics. I'm not going to list them anymore. I hope that people will have enough honor to read those comments along with mine and understand the meanings. I'm going to stop responding to this forum thread. I do appreciate the responses and will just add the information to my notes. I'll leave with saying one more thing. The post about me needing to accept defeat and just take a L proves my points. The fact that it was mentioned in a funny/unique/talented way of referencing when I admit that I do not have an answer to something that is stated is a good form of humor, but it is still a form of deflection. I recovered with information that proves my points later on. How many other people have done that? I don't use art of war tactics. I won't be responding to any more posts from this thread. I don't have any anger towards anyone and hopefully will be able to discuss other topics on other threads in the future. Have a nice day.

ratique 2019-07-28 16:36:32 UTC #124