Opinion on the "virgin loser" type of character archetype (an by extention, real people)?

mrtoontastic 2019-07-27 02:22:15 UTC #79

I mean, if you want an opinion on a virgin, just ask the Spy. He knows (and kills) one!

LordVincent 2019-07-27 02:32:02 UTC #80

Speaking of the friendzone and the niceguy 180 that typically occurs in correlation with it:

The friendzone is not a bad thing if you value deep emotional relationships with women.

If you don't value deep emotional relationships with women, that's probably why you don't have a girlfriend.

If you expect sex in return for something, what you're looking for isn't a girlfriend, it's a hooker.

HGohwell 2019-07-27 02:49:55 UTC #81

My problem is the term "friendzone" which comes from the idea that a man has a shot at having sex with/being the boyfriend of any girl but that you have to be careful or she'll put you "in the friendzone" the idea being that she now she's you as a friend and you no longer have a chance. Which is the total opposite to wanting a proper emotional relations. It's literally the idea that once you're seen as her friend you no longer have any shot with her. Which is a very odd idea because in my experience a lot of women date from their friendship circles.

SleepingPoppy 2019-07-27 03:02:50 UTC #83

The "good guy rules" thing really throws me. Like, all people receive messaging from family, community, society, about what it is to be a good person, and we all have to unlearn some stuff as we grow. Some people will be more messed up than others for a variety of reasons, but it's something we all have to deal with to some degree.

AceRagz 2019-07-27 03:44:52 UTC #84

I'm guessing this is aimed at me partially. waves Don't worry I'll be around to debate you some more.

LT I don't want to come off as mean but seriously the things you've put forward as your "evidence" and your beliefs has lead me to believe you've never had a serious relationship. And that you would be fine with a woman that was only there to pop babies out left and right for you. Everything you've said so far gives off this image. I apologize if I got the wrong impression of you but so far this is kind of the picture you are painting of yourself when you say stuff like women must get pregnant in order to avoid cancer. Also the whole thing about men and women are hardwired only for procreation.

LT1986 2019-07-27 04:24:20 UTC #85

Hey @AceRagz. I think that I've read your second response about the irresponsible misinformation topic. I've read everything in the post. I don't have much to say. You gave more information about the topic. I just hit a few points. You explained how some of the points that I made add on to other things to get certain outcomes. Thank you. I agree and have no disputes with your post.

LT1986 2019-07-27 04:36:39 UTC #86

Hey @Maps. I'm responding to the post about a doctor not saying that you have to have sex or you will get cancer. I'm sorry to hear about your grandma having breast cancer after giving birth.

Here's my thoughts on breast cancer coming from the opposite of what I posted. I agree that cancer does not only come from one thing. Many things can cause the issue. I still believe that trauma, whether it is good, bad, physical, or mental can cause the illness. I'm agreeing with you.

I've already thrown in the white flag about the you must have a pregnancy or sex statement or you MIGHT, not will automatically, get cancer. I don't have the time, resources, money, participants, and lie detectors to really research the topic. I haven't changed my opinion. I just admit that I can't prove it right now.

LT1986 2019-07-27 04:39:46 UTC #87

Hey @Trevor. I'm responding to the post that has the Futurama picture. Thank you for sending the picture.

LT1986 2019-07-27 05:00:37 UTC #89

Hello @DiegoPalacios.

I agree that incels are responsible for their actions.

I guess we might have to agree to disagree about the genuine niceness versus the self-proclaimed niceness topic, only because we have different nice guy definitions. I can't accuse someone of being fake or not. I only go by their actions. I compared it to following the law. The government would rather a person disagree with the law and follow it, than agree with the law and break it. As long as someone's actions are nice, I don't call them fake. Now if I was going by the usual definition that I believe you are referring to, I would agree with you 100%.

I agree with you completely on your points responding to my statements about the importance of sex, romance, etc.

I can sum up the rest of your response by saying this. I agree. Incels need to be smarter. This is what I meant when I said that when incels figure out that what they are doing is wrong, they need to stop excessively complaining about it and fix the problem(s). I do agree with your Disney fallacy statement, too.

I hope that I can explain this without having to look up the exact definitions. Here it goes. Some incels do have problems that are beyond being nice. I believe that it is Asperger's and/or autism that causes someone to not understand things that are not straight forward. That's why I say that just because some guys are smarter and can figure out what needs to be done publicly and what needs to be done in private, that doesn't mean that people are let off the hook for influencing them to not understand what needs to be done publicly and what needs to be done in secret. Other people get help for mental issues and I believe that these guys need help with their issues, too. Whenever I interact with someone that I believe has a mental issue, I don't gaslight them and then blame them for having a mental issue that prevents them from understanding what I've told them or have shown them. Thank you.

LT1986 2019-07-27 05:21:35 UTC #90

Hi @therealbereth. Here's my response to your statement about there being more than two sexes. I don't disagree with you. I guess I didn't go in detail enough about it in my first post. I'll say it, now. Not everything that I or anyone else says is the case 100% of the time. There are exceptions, minorities, and over looked points to not only this topic, but other topics. Thank you for pointing that out.

Here's my response to your second point. I'm sorry for not making myself clear the first time. People can train themselves to do certain things and have abilities that other people don't. Cancer doesn't just come from the physical act. The point of going through the physical act of being a virgin is too much for some people and does cause some sickness. It doesn't have to be cancer. Hell, it could even be a mental illness. I agree with you. Yes, sex doesn't definitely stop cancer cells. Does stress help cause cancer? Does sex help relieve stress.

I actually believe that we agree on the oxygen information that you gave about how reproduction coincides with this. Thank you.

I agree with you on the issue about incels having a sociological problem. I agreed in my first post and posts that I've made, since then. Incels need to stop complaining and fixing their problems. Thank you.

Thank you for the information about the word incel. Incels need to stop complaining and start fixing their problems. I've said this before. This goes for excessively talking negatively about women. Other guys talk negatively about women too, but that is besides the point. I can't really dispute your claim about how I used the word incel. I've seen other people use it that way too, but oh well I'll take an L on that one. I think everyone knows how the word was being used. Anyway, incels with the correct definition doesn't mean that these guys aren't nice. Enough trauma can make anyone lash out, even the real nice guys, by the correct definition that you might use. Let's say that the incels with the correct definition are not nice guys, they do need to stop constantly bashing women. Thank you for point that out.

LT1986 2019-07-27 05:26:47 UTC #91

I'll try to continue reading and responding at another time. Thanks again for the feedback.

Trevor 2019-07-27 05:29:14 UTC #92

i wouldn’t even bother attempting to bring up autism in this because it’s such a rainbow wheel of variant things. It does much more than make it hard to communicate like for example there’s sensory overloads, there’s misunderstandings, there’s more of one and less the other and visa versa, and sometimes just both miscommunication AND oversensory or barely either and all that sits in between.

I don’t think incels are the way they are because of autism making them misunderstand the message of sex not being important because that message isn’t even the message normally touted about. Even this whole thread started off with pointing out the “virgin loser” in stories. You see chad vs virgin memes where the virgin is depicted as undesirable. I wouldn’t be surprised if what’s really happening is they hear about how being a virgin is such a bad thing to be and then they seeth and wallow around in their own hatred and self pity to a point where their perpetual virginity is connected to women not wanting to have sex with them, and then from there they wallow in hatred some more until they become full blown male supremacists.

I can’t say this with certainty but i can definitely say that the explanation of ‘virgins are told that being virgin is bad and gives you higher cancer rates even though it doesn’t, so then some of them feel shitty about themselves and then they start hating women for not taking their virginity which turns them into an incel due to their shitty preachings.’ makes more logical sense to me than this roundabout explanation of ‘their autism makes them think the opposite of the message that sex is not important, and so that somehow leads them to think that women should be their slaves’

and i’m saying this as someone with aspergers myself, I believe I can understand not so straight forward things, thank you very much

therealbereth 2019-07-27 06:06:03 UTC #93

While that is true, and I believe that anyone can be capable of everything (even murder) under the right—or wrong—circumstances, you're simply not "a nice guy" anymore when you have fallen down so far that your whole existence revolves around hating women for not giving you sex.

I appreciate that you seem to be receptive of people's counterpoints here, but you're still very much wrapped up in your own logic (makes sense, since we don't change our ways in a heartbeat), so I'll have to drop out at this point.

Just one more thing: conflating autism with becoming a woman-hating trashfire is deeply ableist and I really hope you rethink your stance with the feedback you're getting here.

AceRagz 2019-07-27 11:26:35 UTC #94

I think the reason he started bringing autism into this is because of Chris Chan. Even then Chris Chan is a higher functioning autistic and even he admitted his treatment towards the main woman of his obsessions was wrong. But he was so desperate in his "love quest" to find a "boyfriend free woman" he was blinded by his desires to have a daughter he could name Crystal that he would within a short amount of time continue that bad behavior.

Every time I see LT bring up this belief that incels are the way they are because they were given the message that sex is not important I have wanted to call bs on that. And I guess I will now. Since when have we as a society given out the impression that sex isn't important? It's in all forms of media. It's in advertisements, movies, tv, etc that sex sells! How common is that phrase at this point? Sex sells. We are surrounded by the message of sex is awesome. That's why movies like American Pie, Porkys and countless others are popular because they show how awkward it can be with characters that people relate to how it is to be a virgin in this society. These movies also push that narrative that you are a loser until you lose your virginity.

Hell there is a reason gullible people buy into these videos by "pickup artists" on youtube. They watch these guys go about and get kisses and dates from hot women and never once do they question if those are paid actresses. Then of course they buy these a-holes books or take their paid video courses on picking up hot chicks. I really can't stand these "pick up artists" because they also push this belief that if there is a woman you are obsessed over all you have to do is find the right words/and or actions or even flex some money (even if you have to fake that) you can get any woman.

And since LordVincent and others brought it up that the other sexual orientations haven't been brought up is because LT has been on and on about incels. A large majority of incels are also homophobic. I hate to bring Chris Chan up again but he is a pretty famous example. He used to scream that no one was to draw his Sonichu character or any of his other comic characters as gay, lesbian or otherwise because he wrote them all as straight. He would go on rants about this so people would draw them on purpose in non straight sexual pictures to troll him. He went as far as one point to scream that he would rather cut his dick off and get a sex change before he would go gay.

Other incels also spew this hate towards the LGBT community. Again... .incels... "nice guys", feel threatened by anyone having sex. I've seen some rather vile remarks about lesbians are evil for choosing women over them.

None of this sounds like these guys were given the message that sex is not important. If anything incels are obsessed with sex and seem to have gotten the message that sex is the only important thing in life.
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Mari 2019-07-27 11:37:57 UTC #95

Literally anyone who says they're a nice guy, aren't. One of my closest friends physically resembles what people call "nice guy", but he gets laid like anyone else. "OMG HOW???" Because he's genuinely a nice person & knows how to deal with rejection.

I have 0 sympathy for any "incel". It is a hole they dug for themselves. I do not think they should be ridiculed, but I also think that their disillusioned ramblings should be ignored. There is no weight to them.

LT1986 2019-07-27 19:05:41 UTC #96

I'm going to get back to working on a few other things after this post and will try to return later. I haven't read any new posts, since yesterday. I will try to later. I'm here briefly to address a point that I made about doctors. Remember when I typed that I don't have the time, resources, money, participants, and lie detectors to prove my point, so I will take the L on the subject.

Here's some insight to prove that I'm not just making stuff up. Before I mention the following situations, I bet that you all have figured somethings out that experts could not figure out, too.

I am no mechanic. I had my vehicle worked on by different mechanics to try to fix a problem. Usually they figure out what the problem is when I bring my vehicle to them. There was one time that they could not figure out the problem. Guess what? I figured out the problem. My idle air control valve needed to be cleaned to make my vehicle stop shutting down. The experts couldn't figure it out, but I did.

I already mentioned my Biblical debates.

There is a lady that stated that she had issues with endometriosis, and doctors couldn't figure out how to cure the problem, but give her certain treatments to deal with the pain. After divorcing her husband the pain went away She realized that the issue came from the STRESS from the relationship. Now I don't personally know her, so I don't think that she wants me to mention her name. Her information is documented in a YouTube video. Is she lying? I don't think so.

There is a guy that had chronic back pain during different situations in his life. DOCTORS, remember them, told him that he did not have any issues that they could see and that the situation was basically made up. He figured out after breaking up with two people that the issue went away, because he wasn't dealing with STRESS of the relationships anymore. I don't know him personally either, so I won't mention his name. His information is documented in a YouTube video. Is he lying? I don't think so.

Now there are examples that back up my point. Once again, I'll state that I don't care if experts disagree with me. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong. I'll try to return after working on a few other things.

AceRagz 2019-07-27 19:17:56 UTC #97

Dude just take the L with some grace. You are just weakening your point even further since you are now flip flopping. What is it? First you say there is expert proof that can be pointed out as "evidence" to your claims but now you say experts are not always right.

SleepingPoppy 2019-07-27 19:24:06 UTC #98

"Doctors aren't psychic! They don't know everything!"

No one thinks doctors know everything. That doesn't excuse you to say irresponsible and inaccurate things. Lack of sex and romantic relationships are what incels hyper focus on, but suddenly having sex or a girlfriend wouldn't remotely cure their problems because they have a toxic mindset. It's the unhealthy mindset that makes them "sick", if anything. And they do need help. You just.. seem very misguided to me.

Sex can have a positive affect on health. Or you can masturbate. Or eat chocolate. Or do any number of healthy activities. Sex isn't necessary to living a healthy life. If a person obsessed over sex until it made them sick, it's the obsession not the sex, that's the actual problem.

Trevor 2019-07-27 23:44:39 UTC #99

nice straw man, but you’re attempting to connect the relation of sex and cancer, not stress and basic warning signs that you’re stressed.

cancer comes from the partial destruction of cells which can happen in various locations in the body and that destruction can come from a multitude of things, just about all of which you actually have to intake. You don’t get cancer from not being around radioactive substances, you get cancer from letting radioactive iodine get into your body. Your liver doesn’t get damaged when you don’t drink so much alcohol you get poisoned by it. You don’t get lung cancer from not inhaling the toxins cigarettes produce. We have vaccines that tell your immune system to kill viruses that you can get, and i know that there’s a cancer causing virus that is spread through people’s saliva. Baring this in mind, it definitely wouldn’t surprise me if it was possible to get a cancer causing virus through sex.

In fact:

You said that chances of cancer increase when you don’t have sex nor get pregnant, how is that the case if nothing is changing in your body? Why are the cells being damaged? what is it about pregnancy that keeps the cells from being damaged? Explain why having sex more often and increasing chances of getting these cancer causing stds and stis will actually lower cancer chances.

skicoak 2019-07-28 00:36:48 UTC #100

Not that this connects to any other part of this debate, or reflects me wanting a part in it...

But there are studies that link frequent ejaculation to a lower chances of certain types of prostate cancer. There is, of course, traditional medical caveats about the larger study but it's worth noting that even if it's not the act that creates the result but a pattern of behavior that links with frequent ejaculation...there's correlation.