Opinion on the "virgin loser" type of character archetype (an by extention, real people)?

[SilentHamster102]

But being a nice guy is really suck. I know it, i was like this some years ago. People will only try to use you because of your kindness, they will offend you because you're too polite to fight back and many other things.
That's really good that I overcome it and became more strong and harsh person, maybe overly harsh sometimes, but I like it.
Bus also this doesn't added nothing to my attractiveness, because it's way more complex thing IMHO. Nice/bad is only one element, I think so. Main thing is charisma IMHO, and I don't have it, at least positive charisma, some people told me that I have somewhat a negative charisma, but I'm fine with it.

Why I think charisma is main thing? Because same things performed by charismatic person and not a charismatic person will be viewed as different by other people. Like if somebody joking, charismatic person will be viewed an "funny", and not charismatic will be viewed as "ass-clown" and many, many more things.

[SleepingPoppy]

I will picture werewolves when anyone talks about alpha males, and nothing will stop me.

[therealbereth]

Alpha males lmao

@LT1986 your first mistake is to assume that there are only "two sexes". This is not only wrong in a sociological context, but biologically, too. Intersex people exist. Sex is not inherently linked to our organs, but also to our brain. Etc. These are scientific facts that you can look up with a five-minute Google research. You are spreading misinformation. In fact, your whole post reeks of misinformation and myths, as well as the wrong conclusions drawn because of it.

When men do not have sex, their chances of getting sick increases.

This is a myth. Not having sex or not masturbating does nothing to your health. The semen just gets "recycled" into the body. It vanishes. Woosh. That's it. And sex does not stop cancer cells from growing, where did you even get that nonsense?

(And of course you have some semen in your pants sometimes when the body isn't fast enough to recycle that stuff, but that's beside the point.)

When people lose the ability to reproduce, they usually physically start to decline and eventually die.

Because the oxygen in the air that happens to be our life source also leads to our cells dying. Oxygen starts to kill us (slowly) the moment we hit maybe 25 years. Also proven fact. Has nothing to do with the ability to reproduce. Reproduction just gets more dangerous the older we get – and that is only the case because our cells grow older.

Incels have the problem of not having had sex even though they want to have sex.

Incels – as a movement – have now chosen not to have sex. They blame their sexless life on women. This is a sociological problem that stems from toxic masculinity.

You can look that up, too.

Most incels are nice guys

Yeah right, that's why they frequent online forums where they spread blatant hate about women, I guess? How nice!

Your assumption that an "incel" is just someone who does not have sex is wrong to begin with. Incels are a movement. No one who's just a virgin is automatically an incel. These are people frequenting 4chan and certain subreddtis where they organize in their hate against women.

Your misinformation is boggling the mind.

[Trevor]

ah fuck it, I've got nothing better to do right now, let me just take the time to write this thing out here.

I've been reading not only in this forum thread, but from other places a similar message that is part of the problem why some guys are incels. The message is that sex, reproduction, romance, etc. is not the main part of life or is not that important.

well this ought to be good

huh,

Both sexes are usually their strongest mentally and physically during the time period that they can reproduce.

Wow it's like when your body has only existed for 2 out of the 7 or 8 decades it was meant to last for, it's grown up to more or less its full extent or something because it's fresh and ready for the world. You having the ability to reproduce does not have anything to do with how well your body is functioning as a whole but rather is just a part of the well functioning body my dood.

When men do not have sex, their chances of getting sick increases.

I don't know how true that is, and unless you're a certified doctor, I don't think you actually know how true it is either. Even if it was true, there's something called "masturbating" that doesn't require the male to be having sex with a woman to pretty much do the effect that sex would have on their body. Considering that it's not always the male who ejaculates during sex, I can only imagine that this is just not true or else males everywhere would be on their death beds.

When women do not have a pregnancy their chances of getting sick increases.

are you trying to describe a period?
Jokes aside, like I said for males, I don't know if it's true and I don't think you know if it's true either.

The sicknesses are not only mental, but also physical. Prostate cancer and breast cancer are two of the sicknesses.

The 116 things that can give you cancer – the full list

here's a far from complete list of things that can also give you cancer. As you scroll down you'll find there's a lot of things in there that you actually hang around every day, like car exhaust and alcoholic beverages. What causes cancer? Living. Living causes cancer.

Like I've said multiple times: unless you're a professional doctor, i just cannot believe what you're telling me is true. I find it hard to make a connection that a woman not having a bowling ball sized child in their tummy will give them cancer in their breasts. Especially since most of a woman's life is spent not actually baring any children.

When people lose the ability to reproduce, they usually physically start to decline and eventually die.

Wow, it's almost as if their body has existed for about 5 of the 7-8 decades it's designed to live for and is starting to wear and tear like a car. This is called "getting older" in case you didn't know. Like I said earlier, the functionality of your sex organs does not dictate the functionality of your body, rather it is just another part of the functioning body. I also want to point out, you're talking about sex giving you health benefits, but you seem to ignore STDs and STVs. You know, the ones that turn your body into flesh piles of warts the imagery of which is so graphic that I can't even post images of them on this forum for you to see? those diseases? Kind of an over site there in your argument if you ask me.

Now that example proves with evidence that we are here to reproduce just like bacteria, plants, and other animals.

You didn't actually give any evidence, you just pulled some bull shit off of a website called squints"health 24 dot com" which isn't a real health organization. You overgeneralize and leave out key details of the very complex scientist known as "evolution" when you say that humans like any other living thing is here to reproduce. I could lecture to you for actual hours on it, but instead I'm just gonna point out that you actually tried to compare humans to bacteria for an argument about why sex is good even though bacteria doesn't even have sex to reproduce.

If someone wants to say that their purpose is something like being a boxer, doctor, motivational speaker, etc. that is okay, but it is a decision that the person made. Anyone can decide to do something and get good at it. Our bodies are wired up a certain way naturally without us trying to do anything.

I don't even know what the hell kind of a point you're trying to make here. I can't tell if you're talking about prostitutes or if you're saying that we were all born to always have sex and get diseases and viruses at some point like those areas of Africa banning protection for religious reasons.

Here's how telling people that sex, romance, etc. is not the most important thing, doesn't matter that much, or isn't important at all. Incels have the problem of not having had sex even though they want to have sex.

I don't think that's the problem, it's rather a symptom of the problem.

Usually the first step to solving a problem is identifying a problem. Telling people that sex is not important is not identifying a problem.

saying they aren't getting enough sex isn't stating the problem either.

Correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of incels started out with a fighting chance, but people told them this type of advice at an early age that messed up their confidence or delayed their growth.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'd also like to know how you got that statistic, if your research skills into making that statement are anything like your health related statements, I'm not very confident in your finding there.

Good guys are told while growing up to not curse, don't get tattoos, don't get piercings, don't get different color hairstyles, don't smoke, don't drink, don't be aggressive with ladies, be patient, wait until marriage to have sex, don't put yourself first, etc. They grow up and find out that the successful/alpha males have been breaking the rules the whole time and have succeeded because of it.

This whole passage is just gibberish to me. Too much variance between someone trying to stay healthy, someone trying to have manners and someone following a religion, to actually see what it is you're trying to say. Like I'm not entirely certain on what you deem to be a "good guy" above all else. What "rules" are you even talking about? The "don't rape people" rule?

I'm just gonna skip a lot of your last paragraph because I feel like I've already covered quite a bit of it by now.

Incels are accused of being like Elliott Roger.

This is the first time I've ever heard of this, and I don't even know who Elliott Roger is lmao, but then again I guess im not most people.

Most incels are nice guys that don't even get to interact with women.

ah yes, the classic nice guy :

You're a fucking whore for rejecting me. I'm a nice guy!

r/niceguys: https://www.reddit.com/r/niceguys/
that's basically how most Nice Guy people are, they call themselves nice guys but are quite the opposite. You also have places like incel boards on 4chan, and r/inceltears that are pretty good pieces of evidence against your arguments here. They preach on those sites about how they'd love to enslave women the way America enslaved black people, and fantasize about being their master and abusing them and all sorts of degeneracy.

If we are going to be honest, who do you really hear about most of the time hitting women, killing them, giving them diseases, not taking care of their kids, etc.? The so-called alpha males do this the most.

Well if incels have a hard time even getting out to see if they can get a women to like them, I don't see why I'd be hearing about incels doing any of that stuff you listed beyond just verbal slurs over the internet.

Just as a side note, I would like to see what would happen if you posted some of your statements in an asexual community of some kind.

[therealbereth]

if your research skills into making that statement are anything like your health related statements, I'm not very confident in your finding there.

That is one sick burn.

---

The thing is: there is enough evidence, and has been for years, that the incel movement has strong connections to fascism. I mentioned that before, but it bears repeating with this weird narrative here trying to absolve the movement of its toxicity and potential danger towards women and society as a whole.

Anders Breivig, Sweden. I think he was one of the biggest triggers that made this movement really take off.

His "manifest" explicitly states his hate for women. As do many other manifests of these so-called "protectors of the Western World". You frequently find their desire to control women. To kill muslims because, in their twisted world view, Islam is somehow responsible for 1) raping "our" women and 2) making them into feminists or whatever. You can't make that shit up if you tried, much less the mental gymnastics to come to opposing conclusions and blaming all people of another ethnicity and belief.

Incels, the men within the movement, are fascists. It's as easy – and as hard to solve – as that.

[therealbereth]

By the way, @LT1986—I'm still not done with you—your whole post reeks of the same entitlement like the whole incel movement, so maybe you aren't exactly the best person to jump to their defence.

What underlies your whole post is the notion that people somehow owe others sex because "it's important".

"My dick gets all swollen when you don't let me f*ck you!", the Nice Guy(tm) says while trying to force his partner to have sex, even though he very well knows that his dick won't fricking explode.

"Sex has health benefits"—because of the oxytocin that the body builds up afterwards. It makes happy. Happiness is healthy. But who would've thought, our body builds oxytocin through several means, many of which don't involve sex at all, but just following our hobbies. So trying to shame a whole community of people here into believing something that just isn't true? That's incel rhetoric. That's rapists' rhetoric.

You might wanna question the use of that rhetoric and take a long, hard look at yourself.

Now I'm done.
And fuming a bit, but hey, there's no way I can let something like this stand.

[monotone_ink]

Yet on the other hand I sort of understand that as well... After all, procreation is our default reason to exist on this planet. If you can't achieve even that...

I guess I'll just draw until I die

In regards to the 'virgin loser' archetype, it's just like any other trope--if done well and is funny, then it's good--if executed poorly, it's not entertaining.

In terms of its application to real people, I don't see it as a big issue--there's more to life than rubbing your gooch with other people's gooches.

[Darth_Biomech]

I guess I'll just draw until I die

Well, "default", not "the only". Meaning that if you failed everything else, you always can just settle on having a family and few kids and cal that a day. It's the bare minimum that you can contribute to humanity's future.

In terms of its application to real people, I don't see it as a big issue--there's more to life than rubbing your gooch with other people's gooches.

Um... from what I'm getting from your statement is that you don't believe in message of this trope, so it's weird that you don't have any big issues with it being applied to real people.

[TAMAnnoying]

Pretty sure you don’t need to have kids in order to contribute to society. There are plenty of people who choose not to have children and can contribute in medicine, science, and social structures is contributing to society’s future. Hell, being a good person and actively participating in lifestyles that are better for the future of the world is really all you need to do. Having children isn’t really a default anymore especially when most people cannot afforded to take care of one. “Bare minimum” isn’t what I would say is “having kids”

[LT1986]

I"ve been kind of busy. Thanks for the responses. I'll try to read them one by one. When I say thank you, I really mean it even if we don't agree. Maybe I can learn something. I'm reading them right now. I'll try to respond soon.

[LT1986]

Thank you for responding to my post @AceRagz. I only have a few points to make in my response. Not all of the rules have to be broken. If you at least do one or two that is enough to increase a person's chances of having better success with women. You have admitted that you have broken some of the rules. I want to add two more things about rules that I didn't add earlier. These rules were given by parents, sisters, teachers, coaches, classmates, and celebrities. They do one thing in public and another thing in secret. I'm not saying that what they do in secret is bad. What is bad is that they led others to believe something that is not true. I don't have any issues with drinking, smoking, getting tattoos, etc. Again my only issue is making others believe one thing when other things are being done in secret.

It is easier to be outgoing, crack jokes, and be social if a person has a few things in common with the majority of society. Here's one example of what I mean by that. Let's take the Bible for instance. I'm not going to say if it is true or just another form of mythology, I'm using it as an example. Most Christians believe either a traditional doctrine, Israelite doctrine, or Jewish doctrine. I grew up following a Christian doctrine. I was able to bond with people. Then I temporarily followed the racist Israelite doctrine. I was wrong, but wasn't afraid to research it. Now I have beliefs that are different from anything that I have ever seen. I have two YouTube channels with what I believe is new understanding that no scholars, pastors, and theologians are presenting in churches and online. Now here's the main point. I've talked to well known people in the past about the Bible. Now that I don't follow the rules that other people follow, no one listens to me anymore. I'm not complaining. I just used this example to show that I could go back to being more social in this area if I would just give in to thinking like the majority of people.

If a guy is viewed as a successful man, he can start being someone of a revolutionary person. The key is getting to the point that people will respect you enough to be yourself, if you are different.

I agree with you on the fact that rushing someone to have sex is negative and that sex is important. My only issue is a statement like that being made to a struggling young man without letting him know how their life might turn out if they don't try to be the best at their strengths to compensate for the issue. I don't think lowly of the person, but others obviously do, as we both admit.

I'm responding to each post separately. I'm moving on to the next post. Thank you.

[AceRagz]

The point I was getting at is these "rules" are meaningless. Women smoke, cuss, get tattoos (in some cases even more than most guys), have wild hairstyles. Women are not some separate species that rejects men on the basis of a set of arbitrary rules. If someone seriously believes in that they have no real understanding of women at all.

I don't even want to get into religion. Oh boy that is a huge can of worms there. All I will say is that I don't talk about this often but I think religion can be damaging as much as it can help some people. To each their own, for me I'm an atheist.

As for struggling men they should reach out to someone they trust and talk to them.

[LT1986]

Thank you for replying @Maps. I think that we have differing definitions of the word good guy. I view good as following rules that are presented. I don't go off of what I feel, only what I see. Here's an example of what I mean. Here's the difference between a good driver and bad driver. One person ran a stop sign and another person didn't. Going by the rules, I would say that the person that ran the stop sign is a bad driver and the person that didn't run the stop sign is a good driver. Now if the person that ran the stop sign for no other reason than to break the rules gets rewarded for doing what publicly by rules is considered wrong, a problem has just occurred in my opinion.

Here's my thoughts on interacting with women without breaking the rules. Before I begin I do want to note what I stated in my previous post about rules. I have no issues with drinking, smoking, getting tattoos, etc. My only issue is one thing being done in public and another thing being done in secret. Let me address what I mean by secretly quickly. This is an example of secretly. A guy sees other guys being successful by doing certain things that are so-called breaking the rules, but a mother, sister, father, or someone else gaslights them by saying don't be like those guys. A lot of guys that are considered incels can have relationships with women. Before I begin the next example I want to say one thing, I'm not referring to the information that you shared with me. Here it goes. Incels can get women that are settling, unattractive, constantly cheating, using them for money, etc. They also can get the women that they desire if they work their hardest to compensate for their lack of social skills, etc and stop complaining. I believe that we all agree on that.

I agree that women can't just magically know how incels feel without the guys talking to them. I also agree that incels hold anger towards women that the women might not deserve. Now here's part of what I mentioned. You mentioned that women don't want guys to pander to them and be overly nice. That is what I mentioned in my post about rules. Incels were taught this. Incels need to stop complaining and fix the problems that society taught them. I agree.

Incels are jealous of alpha males and sexually active women that don't choose them. Incels do need to work on themselves. I agreed in my original post and I agree now.

To save time, I'm going to say one thing. I agree with you 100% on everything that you mentioned in your last paragraph.

Thank you. I going to read the next post now.

[LT1986]

Hey @Darth_Biomech. Thank you for responding. I don't really have much to say, but something that I said in a previous post earlier. I view good guys as guys that follow rules that are presented to them. They don't have to agree with the rules or like the rules, they just have to follow the rules. I gave a good driver and bad driver example earlier. Now here's something that I guess is a little different when it comes to what a nice guy is by my definition. If a guy does things that he was told to do to be a nice guy, I consider him a nice guy. It doesn't matter if he wants to do the things or not or agrees with them or not. His actions, not his feelings make him a nice guy.

Thank you. I'm moving on to the next comment.

[AceRagz]

They also can get the women that they desire if they work their hardest to compensate for their lack of social skills, etc and stop complaining. I believe that we all agree on that.

This right here I find to be far more damaging than anything else said prior. I'm sorry but just because someone desires a particular woman or even a type of woman doesn't mean its going to happen no matter how much work they put in. We all have to be realistic. If someone wants a super model does it mean if they put in a ton of work it will happen? No. There might be a slight chance it all works out I would say at the most optimistic.

Thinking that putting in hard work to get the woman of their desires is all it takes is a bad message. It comes down to being proactive yes but also there has to be chemistry too. Other words you have to both click with each other. That doesn't always happen.

[LT1986]

Hello @TAMAnnoying. I appreciate you for responding. You just admitting that the person needs to at least pleasure themselves and that the lack of sex can cause people to hurt themselves. I agree. Is this a true or false statement? In the medical field, psychology, etc., do the experts admit that there are somethings that they can't explain but agree to be true. There have been many cases of doctors, etc. not knowing about certain things. Correct me if I'm wrong. Do some expert/professional therapists not even know about certain forms of narcissism and some refuse to treat their patients a certain way because it hasn't been approved by their rules? I am not going to feel bad about a doctor that has researched a subject way more than me saying something that goes against what I believe by what I've seen in my life. This is not the first time that I've disagreed with experts. Sometimes I'm wrong and sometimes I'm right. I know that this is a different subject, but I need to use it as an analogy. I've proven pastors, theologians, scholars wrong about scriptures in the Bible before. Sometimes they have proven me wrong. Those things can be proven. I'm not saying if the scriptures are real or fake, I'm saying that the meaning can be proven.

I've said all that to say this. I'll take the l on this one, because I don't have the time, money, resources, and most importantly people that will tell the truth to prove it. Have a good day. I have to work on some other things, but I will try to return later.

P.S. I've briefly looked ahead at the post(s) about me not knowing about sex hormones, puberty, and similar stuff. I'll try to eventually get to it. I am not right about everything. I admit that. I also know that we all agree on some things. Our responses prove it. The sex hormones and puberty stuff is a little tricky. This is why I say this. I can't go into deep details about that here, because I might end up breaking some rule. Will anyone at least admit one thing about the topic? Here it is. Have you seen videos by incels and even alpha males that agree that there is a group of people that lie about their thoughts on sex?

[LordVincent]

Anytime i see words and terms like "alpha males", "the two sexes", "women are designed this way whereas men are designed that way" etc etc I'm just stuck here like

What about people who are gay, intersex, bi, trans, asexual, or simply have other fucking priorities in life?

I feel like "scientists" and "studies" that conclude procreation as the main purpose of life for all humans are intentionally ignoring heaps of information in order to arrive at a point that suits their view of what's important in life. Last time I checked, science was not supposed to be about picking whatever factual indications are convenient for you and just creating your own version of the truth.

Also incels are not nice guys, majority of people who claim to be nice guys aren't actually nice. And even if they are, that doesn't entitle them to sex. Nice is not a qualificiation for anything, and it's not a personality trait. "Nice" is the bare fucking minimum. The only thing "nice" tells me is "he won't beat the sit out of me". I don't know about you but I think people need to require more in a partner than that. 🤷‍♂️

[HGohwell]

It makes me mildly uncomfortable the way Alpha Male and Incel are being thrown around like they're the only two male personality types in the world, which to get back to the original topic, may well be something to do with fictional generally playing up the "you're either having sex or you're a loser" tropes.

The problem is Involuntary Celibate (let's not forget that's literally where the term Incel comes from) basically translates as "I can't have sex and it's everyone else's fault and definitely not mine" and who are often perfectly "nice guys" until a woman says she likes them as a friend (Friendzoned is a terrible idea that normalises men and women being unable to interact without there being a sexual element). Now, let's also make a distinction here: Alpha Male does not equal Bad Boy/Jerk. Alpha Male is a leader and protector type. Bad Boy/Jerk are the rules breakers/abusers/"I can change him"/Troubled But Cute. Please stop conflating the two. They are in no way the same and this is another thing that has come from the media idea that all athletes/handsome guys/popular with women guys are jerks because we should be routing for the "losers" who are seen as more normal because people are more likely to identify with that, especially as teens.

There are plenty of Alpha Males who follow the rules. Hell my young love was the nicest guy who was always polite, always smiles, always helped everyone, never drank, never smoked, never swore, got straight A, top athlete (wow this guy sounds like a totally unbelievable character or hiding a dark past) and was a natural leader aka Alpha Male. Girls loved him, I was not the only one.

Also the thing about illnesses, come on man, having sex has been linked to vaginal cancer. Literally everything is linked to cancer. You can't win.

The point is: it's important to teach people sex isn't the only thing and that it should be dealt with in a way that makes people comfortable. If we spent less time teaching people sex is super and more time teaching people to be confident in themselves and their own choices and others, maybe more people who wanted to have sex would be and maybe more people would respect people who don't want to have sex. And that there are not only two male personalities and please stop mixing them up and trying to give good guys a bad name and asshole who can't take responsibility for their own actions a good name.

[mrtoontastic]

I mean, if you want an opinion on a virgin, just ask the Spy. He knows (and kills) one!

[LordVincent]

Speaking of the friendzone and the niceguy 180 that typically occurs in correlation with it:

The friendzone is not a bad thing if you value deep emotional relationships with women.

If you don't value deep emotional relationships with women, that's probably why you don't have a girlfriend.

If you expect sex in return for something, what you're looking for isn't a girlfriend, it's a hooker.