Opinion on the "virgin loser" type of character archetype (an by extention, real people)?

[Carossmo]

Ohhh I'm interested to know your thoughts

[nostalgicroxas]

This reminds me how much I've noticed lately how the "depressed" character ends up the butt of everyone's jokes just as much. That guy from "Big Bang Theory" who constantly is tossing around into conversations how he's on depression medications and the characters gloss over it as a joke "he's a creep" or "listen to my problem!" - and another being the depressed gal (Wendy iirc) from "Mom" - which I enjoy that series a lot - but it has her as the butt of almost identical jokes, and more so being told often to "shut up" or "go cry somewhere" - and another "listen to my problem!"

As for the "virgin loser" yeah, it's one of those problems that is a thing and pops its ugly head up every few years to remind us "THIS IS STILL A THING IN SOCIETY AND HOLLYWOOD SUPPORTS IT". 50 Year Old Virgin, millions of Hallmark's Rom-Coms / Rom-Dras, and Disney.
Disney especially is bad at this "one step forward, five steps back" problem - "Frozen" is a massive success pioneering in the way for familial love, only to hit audiences over the head with how creepy, oppressive and stalker-like Ralph turns into over Vanelope (Wreck-it 2). They make headway in having the girl meet the guy in "The Little Mermaid", and then bring in toddler jerk character from "Beauty & The Beast". [Not to mention the Maleficent story is basically _violating_ the protagonist midway through the story.]
So we have two things: Hollywood's twisted idea of reality because their movies can't be "art" anymore. And society's idea of "this is how it should be". It's one of those things that if you look into studying marriages, the idea to marry for love is super young (like actually <80 yr or so); while it existed kind of before, it was a rare fairy tale idea and just wasn't a thing that happened because women, by law, carried the dowry. And if she had none as a daughter, she was sent to be married into a rich family to hopefully save her family (the entire premise of Corpse Bride's opening scenes).

[Darth_Biomech]

Then again, they come from the same societal pressure that we have discussed here: sex is THE BOMB and women owe men sex for whatever reason.

Uh, I don't think that they are simply desiring sex, since for that you can always just go to an actual prostitute. I think they think that they are entitled to happiness, and the only way to get that is to have a relationship. I actually hate them probably twice as much as the majority, since they cast humongous shade on the rest of the old virgins who fit the meaning of "involuntary celibate". Imagine living with your second name being "Hitler".

I haven't met people that think that any virgin older than 20 is either an incel or a monk, yet, but I'm sure they exist.

[TAMAnnoying]

As a Virgin myself I used to find the trope to be horribly damaging to society but after living with the troupe for a few years it’s juts another one of those things where “if it’s written well I don’t mind.”

Like most tropes there are obvious problems that bleed into society with the ongoing idea that “being a Virgin is bad” or at least “abnormal” it’s not so much that being a Virgin is particularly a “problem” anymore but people need “reasons” to be one. When the subject comes up (usually in a doctors office I admit) it’s met with some interesting responses. The first being if this is “by choice” and if it is by choice... clearly it would be a religious one or maybe even an asexual one.

Fact of the matter is for a lot of people it’s just no one has any damn time! Lots of people are busy trying to find their professions early in their lives now and looking for new people to date every other month can take a lot of time out of your schedule. Dating- meeting new people is an investment of time that not everyone has time to make.

Overall, again, I’m relatively meh about the troupe unless the writing is stellar. :v I don’t think it’s a good troupe but I also wouldn’t really condemn anyone from wanting to write a story that involves the idea.

[Mari]

I hate it about as much as I hate almost every female anime archetype.

So a lot.

A lot of the time the virgin loser in any hentai animoo turns into a rapist due to untouched peepee rage.

So that's pretty gross as well.

[therealbereth]

Uh, I don't think that they are simply desiring sex, since for that you can always just go to an actual prostitute. I think they think that they are entitled to happiness, and the only way to get that is to have a relationship.

Hmmm. I admit that I haven't read up too much about this group because they're so vile, so it might very well be that you're right. Although it's paradox: they believe that they are entitled to sex/a relationship/happiness by a woman, yet at the same time, the worst of them choose to stay away from women, all while planning to "punish" them for not choosing them, and I'm—
—what.

I believe that there are academic publications about them by now, including analyses about how this movement is connected to the alt right and fascism in general, but I haven't gotten around to reading any of them yet. Also, I kinda... dread it. I can't get my head around how anyone can have this visceral hatred for women.

It feels definitely connected to the trope we're discussing, and to society pressuring especially young men into being "real men" by having sex (or "having" a woman). But maybe someone with more insight into this movement would like to share some of it and how it may relate to media.

[mrtoontastic]

All I gotta say is~

[DiegoPalacios]

Yeah, the interesting thing was that Hal was just a nerdy and awkward cameramen and would be a minor character under other circumstances.

He never did anything meaningful in his life until he got the serum. He was just called "nice" because he hadnt done anything bad until the moment, it was just the asumption that the lack of hostility meant......kindness?.

But as soon as he got power, his selfish side was quickly revealed, because he was never a good person, he was just too submisive to actually attempt hurting others for his benefit. Deep down it was a hidden coward side. And now that he got the power, he quickly realized he could get away with doing many things, and thought that this power gave him the right to do as he pleases, but when he thought Metroman was after him, he regressed into his submissive self and tried to run away until he realized it was a Megamind`s trick.

What made him feel somewhat scary and real was that there are people there who behave like bystanders, but only because they never had the chance to act on their selfish desires. Hal acted like an entitled "Chad" as soon as he got the power to get away with it.

This shows an interesting side on submisive characters. Hal, could have been anyone too shy and submissive to act on his desires. If Peter Parker were more selfish, his behavior would have probably been similar. Spiderman and Titan are both awkward guys with superpowers, but they used that power differently when they got the chance to make a difference.

[Tanako]

Danm. is he okay? I mean some of this things you really have to go for it t least if its important to him. I believe that relationships are achieved if thats truly what you want, like, if you graduate from high school and you want to go to college and graduate with a degree, you go for it and you put in the effort so my question to you for your friend is, has it really been a important factor in his life? did he ever meet someone he liked and never made a move? if he didnt bother to try to be in one then it dosnet make sense for him to experience it. unless he just never really cared for relationships then thats understandable.

[DiegoPalacios]

For the people self-conscious about their virginity....just listen to this song

[TAMAnnoying]

NSP always a classy choice my friend

[LT1986]

I was planning on opening the can of worms later, but I guess I'll go ahead and do it now.

I've been reading not only in this forum thread, but from other places a similar message that is part of the problem why some guys are incels. The message is that sex, reproduction, romance, etc. is not the main part of life or is not that important.

Human males and females grow up and reach puberty. Their sex hormones and organs start to make them able to reproduce. Both sexes are usually their strongest mentally and physically during the time period that they can reproduce. When men do not have sex, their chances of getting sick increases. When women do not have a pregnancy their chances of getting sick increases. The sicknesses are not only mental, but also physical. Prostate cancer and breast cancer are two of the sicknesses. When people lose the ability to reproduce, they usually physically start to decline and eventually die. Now that example proves with evidence that we are here to reproduce just like bacteria, plants, and other animals.

If someone wants to say that their purpose is something like being a boxer, doctor, motivational speaker, etc. that is okay, but it is a decision that the person made. Anyone can decide to do something and get good at it. Our bodies are wired up a certain way naturally without us trying to do anything.

Here's how telling people that sex, romance, etc. is not the most important thing, doesn't matter that much, or isn't important at all. Incels have the problem of not having had sex even though they want to have sex. Usually the first step to solving a problem is identifying a problem. Telling people that sex is not important is not identifying a problem.

Here's another issue with saying that sex, romance, etc. is not that important. Correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of incels started out with a fighting chance, but people told them this type of advice at an early age that messed up their confidence or delayed their growth. Here's the point. Good guys are told while growing up to not curse, don't get tattoos, don't get piercings, don't get different color hairstyles, don't smoke, don't drink, don't be aggressive with ladies, be patient, wait until marriage to have sex, don't put yourself first, etc. They grow up and find out that the successful/alpha males have been breaking the rules the whole time and have succeeded because of it. That is similar to telling someone not to worry about sex, because it is not the most important thing. How many of the guys that have sex a lot truly not only believe this saying, but practice what they preach. To make things worse is that men and women deny what works and blame the good guy for following the so called rules.

Some incels are wrong for excessively expressing anger with actions, words, giving up, complaining, hurting people etcetera. I used the word excessively, because most of the things that people give incels a bad wrap about the alpha males do worse. I'm going to end my first post about the subject. The entire matter has to be dealt with over time. There is too much to talk about at once. Here's one last example. Incels are accused of being like Elliott Roger. Most incels are nice guys that don't even get to interact with women. If we are going to be honest, who do you really hear about most of the time hitting women, killing them, giving them diseases, not taking care of their kids, etc.? The so-called alpha males do this the most.

[AceRagz]

I don't even know where to start with this one. I would never say sex isn't important. However I do think its harmful when people push this narrative that everyone should just rush out and lose it because someone else says you are a loser if you don't get laid the second you hit puberty.

As far as successful/alphas breaking the rules? I never got piercing, no tattoos, no wild colored hairstyles though I do wear a tail for the last twenty years, I don't smoke but I drink but been truly drunk only a handful of times in my life. I curse like a sailor, I'm not aggressive with women, I'm patient in relationships which is a must to make it last and I don't put my self first in relationships. And here I am at 39 with 16 ex girlfriends.

And most of my girlfriends went out with me because I was outgoing, cracking jokes and being social. I was respectful towards them and I got dates and relationships. I don't think there is a magic combination as to what makes a successful guy or an incel. It just happens due to factors on a case to case basis I would say at my best guess to why.

As for me bringing up Elliot Rodger it was due to someone talking about Hal from Megamind. I compared Hal to Elliot.

[Maps]

But, to me, breaking rules doesn’t necessarily make a man an “alpha male”. And it doesn’t make him any worse OR more appealing than a “good guy” who follows all the rules. Being a rule follower doesn’t necessarily make you a good guy and it doesn’t give you a one up on anyone else.
And, who is to say that “alpha males” aren’t good people too? There are plenty of men who have had experience dating and having sex with women, dying their hair, getting tattoos, who drink and smoke and treat the women they date right. I know plenty of men, including my brothers, who are great people and have dated women and treated them kindly. One of them lost his virginity to his wife, and the other has dated more than one woman. I wouldn’t call my younger brother a “good guy” or my older brother an “alpha male”. If anything, my little brother seems to be an alpha in my eyes (if this is a thing...). I know plenty of men who “break rules” but are kind to women too.
I’d argue that, from what I’ve seen, some incels hold an anger toward women because they don’t show interest in them. You mentioned that the “good guys” don’t know how to interact with women. Women cannot be expected to magically fall in love with a man who isn’t even going to speak to them. And sometimes when men are overly nice, it comes across a little ingenuine. Having someone agree and pander to you all the time doesn’t necessarily make that person the good guy or an appealing guy. Some people like to be challenged or to feel like they’re dating an individual who can express what they want to do.
This is my opinion, but I have always figure that incels have given alpha males and sexually active women a bad wrap because they are jealous and envious. Why is it an alpha male or a sexually active woman’s fault they they aren’t getting laid. Or even a virgin woman who don’t show interest in them? The answer is: it’s not.
I think that their virginity ALONG WITH the need to have sex ends up affecting every aspect of their life and that pent up anger makes them unappealing people to be around. And their are others are just frustrated that they aren’t attracting women like they want to. There’s more to life than sex and maybe if incels focused more on their interests and other things that make them happy, they’d have better chances of finding people or a community with shared interests and gain the right type of confidence.
I think the problem could be in parenting. It could be in social miscommunication with people. It could be in a personal lack of self confidence or a superiority complex. And it could be the fact that those who are angry at women can come across that way. Some people aren’t going to want to date someone who holds a grudge against sexually active folks or see themselves as being above a rule breaker and/or “alpha male”.

[Darth_Biomech]

Most incels are nice guys

Here's the thing though, if you think of yourself as a "nice guy", there's really good chance that you actually aren't. As with any self-appointed title. People lack objectivity towards themselves. Even if others had called you that, what they really mean, as been said in this thread before, is just "you hadn't really done anything bad to me". Which is not saying much.

[TAMAnnoying]

I have never in all my years of seeing my lady doctor have ever been told this idea of "I will get sick unless I start having sex"

I think what people really need to start understanding is that having sex is the same as any other experience in someones life. Some people have never been on airplanes, some have never ridden on busses, some have never learned how to bike ride. Some people will never visit Germany. Some people will never have sex. It wont ruin them mentally unless they are choosing to do something that is unhealthy for their bodies such as refusing to pleasure yourself or denying yourself "perverted" thoughts. It's all about mental health and understanding your own needs. But you don't need to have sex to become "sick" and having sex doesn't make you any more or less healthy.

[AceRagz]

Okay I saw just irresponsible misinformation in this whole thing that at the time I felt I didn't have the patience to tackle. I feel prepared to shed some light on these subjects.

Human males and females grow up and reach puberty. Their sex hormones and organs start to make them able to reproduce. Both sexes are usually their strongest mentally and physically during the time period that they can reproduce.

This is so wrong. Girls are quite capable of producing children at a very young age! I had to check because I had previously thought the youngest mother on record was 11 but was horrified to see that several resources point to a 5 year old Peruvian girl that gave birth via c-section in 1939! Most girls menstruate at 12-13 I would not call that mentally and physically the strongest point of their lives.

When men do not have sex, their chances of getting sick increases. When women do not have a pregnancy their chances of getting sick increases. The sicknesses are not only mental, but also physical. Prostate cancer and breast cancer are two of the sicknesses. When people lose the ability to reproduce, they usually physically start to decline and eventually die. Now that example proves with evidence that we are here to reproduce just like bacteria, plants, and other animals.

There is research that suggests people in a relationship live longer and are sick less I won't argue that point. However... the same is said of people with pets, hobbies, etc. These research studies don't directly say sex makes people live longer and be more disease free. What they point to in their theory based on cause and effect speculations is that people who have an outlet for stress tend to be healthier. They believe if someone has a partner or pet that helps keep them calm and be less stressed they become ill fewer times.

Prostrate and breast cancer strike even sexually active people. Cancer cells have no preferences. Being in a sexual relationship is not going to keep diseases at bay.

[Maps]

I lost it at 24 and have never been unhealthy. My grandma had my mom at 18 and got breast cancer. So I struggled to believe that info at all. Like, I’d love to read the thesis on this.
And like @TAMAnnoying said, my doctor has never said “Woooah. You gotta go have sex or your getting cancer, my friend.”

[Trevor]

Not sure if I should give in on this hot take and explain every detail that I find wrong about it, or if I should just keep doing what I've been doing and just not take part in this whole thread beyond this post

[DiegoPalacios]

You are giving some interesting points on some of the sociological causes that may lead a person to become an incel, but their actions, no matter the reason, are their own responsibility.

Most incels are nice guys that don't even get to interact with women.

there is a huge difference between genuine niceness and calling oneself nice. Probably most incels call themselves "nice guys". Also, there is a massive difference between genuinely nice and being nice expecting something in exchange.

Here's another issue with saying that sex, romance, etc. is not that important. Correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of incels started out with a fighting chance, but people told them this type of advice at an early age that messed up their confidence or delayed their growth

The demonisation of sex can lead to people to have sexual issues. Guess we agree on that. But the glorification of sex as a "rite of manhood/womanhood" lead to issues too.

Is sex important?....guess it depends a lot on the person`s lifestyle. Sex usually have 2 purposes: intimacy with their partner and having kids. (people may value those 2 purposes differently). Of course if the person wants to have kids, the biological deadline can be pressing. (specially if they are not willing to adopt a kid)

Is romance important?.....it also depends of a person`s lifestyle too and if they find a partner that is worth the effort.

Good guys are told while growing up to not curse, don't get tattoos, don't get piercings, don't get different color hairstyles, don't smoke, don't drink, don't be aggressive with ladies, be patient, wait until marriage to have sex, don't put yourself first, etc. They grow up and find out that the successful/alpha males have been breaking the rules the whole time and have succeeded because of it.

The thing is that this is NOT romantic advice, and should NOT be taken as it. This is more related to a mix of societal etiquette, health advice and moral teachings related to the values of the parent/guardian`s beliefs.

being nice is not the absolute romantic truth. Is just one of many desirable qualities, but not inherently connected to sexual attraction of any kind. Is just a common expectation on people`s behavior.

a nice guy is doomed to lose against a nice AND smart guy, or a nice AND funny guy, or a nice AND charming guy.

How to be attractive? the first thing to understand is that is not measured in a single quality and that not every man or woman values the same qualities equally. Every person have their own personal ways to be attractive. Some people can "talk their uglyness away", others are fun to be around, others are passionate about their projects, there are brilliant people too, wise young men who understand what matters in life can be extremely desirable too.

Another thing people don`t explain is that no matter what we do, is impossible to attract everyone, and just because someone likes a person, doesnt mean they will be liked back. Also, if the person one had a crush on, isnt onto them is NOT the end of the world. There are many people in the world, and is better to find one they like AND likes them back to have a happy relationship.

Is important that they understand that romance and marriage is NOT a happy ending per-se. Life goes on, but is important to know if they want to face life, joy, adversity, health and illness with each other.
(i like to call these common marriage/romance related myths the Disney fallacy)