Pantsing vs Outlining

[Ordinaryaverageguy]

Honestly, I don't think jotting down notes as things occur to you isn't pantsing. I think pantsing is when you begin a story without outlining the whole plot or creating a story board, and you let the process of writing direct where the scenes and the dialog goes. Getting ideas as you go is, I think, a significant part of the pantser's process.

[Leyelle]

i'm doing it as a challenge lol. you can plan everything, but there are other ways to write, and writing as you go was something I was trying out

[Leyelle]

i'm not really sure how it works yet, so you may be right. i'm just trying it as a challenge

[cherrystark]

I am speaking from my own experience, but "pantsing" is less about writing willy-nilly and learning to trust your instincts. When I was a kid, I could never finish a story. I'd get too caught up in the planning stages that I'd lose all the enthusiasm I had for my great idea. It wasn't until I started to develop my own style that I finished stories.

I do want to make it clear that the ONLY difference between plotting and pantsing is the use of a formal outline. There are different styles of outlines that have different and distinct guidelines: Romancing the Story, Save the Cat, Hero's Journey, etc. Those outlines have goals for each chapter and beats that each chapter must hit. Writing down a list of characters and descriptions is not plotting. Making notes about random plot ideas you had while away from your computer is not plotting.

The biggest thing with pantsing or discovery writing is to trust your instincts: a character doesn't work - kill 'em/write them out of the story; you're tied of genre conventions/tropes - subvert them; the original ending you imagined for the MC doesn't work - start exploring new ones. If your instincts are telling you to try something with the story, do it. If it doesn't work, fix it in the next draft.

[Leyelle]

Makes sense. I wasn't saying writing willy nilly, but rather just going with the flow rather than structuring it in advance. I think I have the habit that once I start working on a story, I actually start developing plot outlines, and before I know it i'm sitting down to structure the whole book in advance before I can finish it.

[cherrystark]

I know. I just said "willy nilly" because people tend to think that pantsing means they run into the story blind and that ANY notes they might make count toward outlining/plotting. An exercise you could try is to find a prompt that speaks to you and for an hour or so, focus solely on writing to that prompt. If you're really jiving with what you've written and want to continue THEN go back and start making notes, simply to get your facts straight.

[Leyelle]

that's a good idea, thanks

[Leyelle]

How long does it usually take everyone to finish plot-pointing their stories? For me I'd say it's anywhere between two weeks and a month for me to get a solid novel outline I think is fit for me to start working on. Occasionally I DO start writing with out an outline, especially when I have some scenes in mind and I want to get them down on...pixels before I forget them, but when it comes to making sure I have a clear start and end point, yeah, like two weeks to a month to be satisfied with an outline for the whole novel.

It's taken me about 20 days I think for my newest novel I just finished outlining, and I think "Sun with a Paper Crown" took me most of February, though I was giving myself more time with that one to not stress myself out and let it flow more naturally

[beebutterbee]

I think across writers we all have very different methods! I don't think one way is more successful than the other, because everyone has their unique learning style and way of planning. I write outlines for most of my stories tho, it's the easiest way for me to get it all down and I like having a guide Although I don't always stick to it if I see the plot is evolving, but then usually I'll go back and edit the original outline to figure out how the newest plot works.

I think it takes me about a week or two to finish a complete outline, although sometimes I'm so full of energy I can kick one out in a day, although I try to edit the outline and go over it with my friends and brother for about a week or two to see if it makes sense. Usually when I think of a story, it's either from a dream or a collection of dreams, so my brain already thought out most of the story for me when I was sleeping xD I just have to add more logic or structure into the plot but I think writing the outline is probably the most easy part for me. I enjoy writing outlines very much and find them very helpful when I'm creating stories.

My other writer friends take about a month to write their outlines though, so I'm sure 20 days is pretty normal actually to write an outline. But I think it's fine if someone takes more or less time than that. Whatever gets the story out, I guess, right?

[king-goldfish]

I've only just started writing actual outlines for my stories. Previously, I would just start writing with the ideas I had in my head, but I frequently wrote myself into corners that way and my writing tended to balloon into extremely long narratives, which, as it turns out, no one wants to read.

So in an effort to write faster and keep my novels to actual standalone novel length, I've started writing actual outlines. I was worried that it was going to bore me and steal my motivation to write the actual story, but so far, that hasn't been the case.

My outlines are probably short compared to other people's, but the last one was 8 pages and took ~3 days to write. I actually had a lot of fun doing it and it was nice to get my ideas down without waiting months for the scene to come up in the course of drafting.

[HostileFren]

I don't know, at the moment I'm definitely more of a pantser. Although I've attempted to outline, I typically only get a few points in before I get inspired to start writing an actual chapter. I do have a general idea for the main plot points I want to include and add important things to a google doc to remember to add later, but my writing style is mostly utter chaos. I just add things in as they come to me, providing they fit into the general confines of the story. At this point, I'm just considering it a reflection of my disorganization as a person bleeding over into my writing process.
For example, my main story I'm working on was supposed to be just one part and was supposed to be a novellete, but is now in the middle of the second part and just under 50,000k words total. As I was approaching the 'ending' I'd originally intended, I realized that there were a few things that would benefit from more context and characters that I hadn't got the chance to develop as thoroughly as I would've liked, so part two revolves around a second set of MCs.
What was originally supposed to be a one part story has now become at least a three part book and will be much longer than oringally intended. However, lengthening it has provided the opportunity to develop plot points much more than I would've been able to originally.
For the most part, I think that it just depends on the person

[Lensing]

Some do it like this, some do it like that. I think it´s a very individual process and it´s
stupid to make general statements in the direction of "this is the only way to do it"

I think it´s good to try out different ways, but I´m not an expert because I mostly write short
stories, comics and songs and I have never written a successful novel

Stephen King: Stephen King is one of the most famous pantsers in the literary world.
He often starts with a basic premise or situation and lets the story evolve organically as he writes.

George R.R. Martin: The author of the "A Song of Ice and Fire" series, which inspired the popular TV series
"Game of Thrones," is also known for being a pantser. Martin has stated that he prefers to let the story and characters guide him as he writes.

Margaret Atwood: The acclaimed author of "The Handmaid's Tale" and many other novels has mentioned in interviews that she does not outline
her novels in advance and prefers to discover the story as she writes.

Neil Gaiman: Neil Gaiman, known for works such as "American Gods" and "Coraline," has described himself as a pantser who enjoys the process
of discovery that comes with not planning everything out in advance.
J.K. Rowling: The author of the "Harry Potter" series has mentioned that she doesn't outline her novels in detail before writing them.
Instead, she prefers to let the story unfold as she writes.

[Leyelle]

Although I don't always stick to it if I see the plot is evolving, but then usually I'll go back and edit the original outline to figure out how the newest plot works.

I'm the same way here honestly XD. Quite often different ideas come up and shift my plots a lot. Fortunately i'm usually able to find ways to fit them in XD. And I actually like plot pointing too, but it's not really easy to me. Being able to do it in a day is CRAZY XD. But It's not particularly fun for me when I have deadlines which I often do TT.

extremely long narratives, which, as it turns out, no one wants to read.

I like some long narratives, like Dickens' novels. it always depends on the reader ofc, but I think you should write whatever length you like best. It is YOUR story. You'll find your audience.

Some do it like this, some do it like that. I think it´s a very individual process and it´s stupid to make general statements in the direction of "this is the only way to do it"

I agree. everything works differently for each writer. I was only asking what each individual finds works best for them

[Leyelle]

Although I've attempted to outline, I typically only get a few points in before I get inspired to start writing an actual chapter.

I've found that when you get inspired, you can sit down and start writing the chapters and outline the story as well. Honestly for me, huge parts of my chapters actually end up in the outlines, because when I know a very important or emotional conversations is going to be in DITRD, I write it down so I won't forget it in the "chapter breakdown" I have on my outline. So a huge part of my outline might just be a play-by play, but then there's just a cluster of dialog, sometimes written like a script, sometimes in more or less the same format it will appear in the novel as, shoved into the outline xd

[beebutterbee]

lol yeah I don’t write outlines in a day often but if I’m in the right mindset sometime it happens xD But also maybe my outlines are very short? Sometimes they’re only 2000 words but the one I did write in a day for my recent project, that was 4000 words long. But also I have longer periods where I don’t write at all. I def work is very short, very intense bursts. What word count are you usually at with writing outlines?

[Leyelle]

@beebutterbee 25800 words. for "Sun with a Paper Crown" my outline is like half the length of a novel because it gives a detailed breakdown of each chapter lol. For my new story it's 27000

[beebutterbee]

Oh wow! Yeah that’s a super detailed novel outline! That makes sense that it takes longer, mine are very short in comparison XD but still I find them helpful. Depending on the outline I write 1 to 2 paragraphs for each chapter, and I run about 20-25 chapters per book! But 2 paragraphs in the outline equal about 2000-3000 words written in the actual novel.

My stories are pretty short though I think compared to what’s out there, I think they can be anywhere 40,000 to 60,000 which I guess is sort of average? Maybe? The one finished story I do have is only 20,000 words tho What’s your projected word count for your novels usually at?

[Leyelle]

novel word count around 55000 words usually I think. "Sun with a Paper Crown" is longer than "Damsel in the Red Dress." But I know a lot of the length of my outlines comes from the fact that I'll start writing out the scenes and put them in the outline so I won't lose the emotion I know i'm going for and know where it belongs, what leads up to it etc.

[king-goldfish]

I like some long narratives, like Dickens' novels. it always depends on the reader ofc, but I think you should write whatever length you like best. It is YOUR story. You'll find your audience.

Dickens is one of my favorites haha. I do like writing long, but I'm trying to write some shorter novels now because those are easier to sell to publishers (or so I'm told). Failing that, I do wonder if shorter novels would encourage readers on Tapas to stick around through the end; I have noticed a lot of people will follow the story for several weeks and then drop off, and I never hear from them again. I can't help but wonder if that's because they find the story too meandering and would prefer something with an end in sight. Of course, people could be giving up on the story for any number of reasons. It's so hard to tell, which is the frustrating thing. But in the meantime, I'm having some fun trying to write shorter, self-contained stories that don't sprawl so much. I'm sure I'll return to the "baggy monsters" one day.

[Leyelle]

Yeah, there could be any number of reasons for people to drop off. But especially in the webseries age, I think people often like reading long writing stories, so it always depends on what makes your story it's best self in the end imo