Responsibility as a creator

[Zhengo]

I do think anything in our lives will have an influence on us, including fictional media. There is a reason that state propaganda uses fictional media as one of its venues to push influences onto the public opinion, and even why book banning is a thing due to governments fear of having media influencing the population into an opinion they don't want them to have. The thing is, though, that these are more effective in an environment that discourages critical thinking. A person who is well educated and has a high degree of critical thinking is less likely to be influenced by propaganda pieces. They're not going to read Mein Kampf and suddenly decide they are a Hitler stan. As for if that is the current model our society is at...well that is whole other topic.

I think the problem on social media is a lot of people have a tendency to want to use the same tactics of oppressive states but use them "correctly". Wanting to censor media and label them as immoral but "this time it's actually bad and harmful for real, I swear!" And don't realize that not everyone will have the same opinion of what topics are harmful and that this reasoning can be used against them.

This is also why I said people can still have the right to critique them, because critique is thinking critically. But as I said, they should be critiqued as a skill and not on a creator's ethics, because the latter just loops it back to considering all media as a morality guide.

[AmysGames]

I've put a lot of thought into this topic, and I think the conclusion I've come to is that it depends on who you're writing for.

If you're writing for children, it's generally important to point out when a character does something wrong. Children's media will help shape their perception of the world, so encouraging them to do bad things is going to be frowned upon.

But adults, for the most part, already have their perception of the world shaped. They can make their own judgments on whether a character made a bad decision, or whether that character is the scum of the earth, without the author needing to point it out to them. Even if the author seems to be condoning it, it's probably not going to change anyone's mind on the matter.

That being said, I think you're allowed to write whatever you want in an 18+ story (following content guidelines if you're posting it online, obviously). It's when you're aiming for younger audiences that you have to be a little more cautious about it.

[Lensing]

Thanks again for the interesting answers

[TheKillingAlice]

I believe this is a hard question to answer, as I feel like there's two things to consider:
1. What is the story trying to depict?
2. Who is it for?

The second question is a bit obsolete, as you have already said it was mainly for 18+, but in reality, this question is far more important to ask of people who aren't writing for an adult audience. Because if you are an adult, "Triggerwarnings" or not, you can tell the second something uncomfortable (for you) happens and skip or just drop the story. I'm not in this world to teach another adult how this works or walk on eggshells.
I literally hate the idea that a character couldn't say what they would, just because of some sensibilities that only exist on the news. People pretend online that this and that is a taboo, but people say and live these things and a character should be able to as well. Because a story should and needs to be able to explore everything possible, to tell the story without censoring itself and distracting from what it is trying to say.
Now, to be more blunt on the matter, with question 1 on: I've written countless smut with sexual assault or harrassment in it that was part of the smut and the story went over "well" for both characters. How does that work? With the right characters, assault can turn into an active relationship, because assault is not always the same thing, depending on how it happened and how it was received. I get that someone would say they couldn't imagine that or that a victim might not want to read it (some would, but that's a different topic), but it's something to explore in fiction for those who want to explore it without anyone getting hurt and traumatized. There's thin lines here and even if it does go over quickly and well, it should either be clear that both characters are nuts or there should at least be some clarification as to why and how they reconciled, unless it happens gradually and you see it happen. That's the only thing I would ask for as a reader, but I wouldn't call it "responsibility" (we'll get to that in a second) and it's not just that specific situation, but all sorts of things that could be seen as potentially "problematic". I can write about whatever I want, make my protagonist a killer, a r*pist, a psychopath, as long as it's clear that that is what he is, and I don't start acting as if that totally weren't the case. Doesn't mean it couldn't be a romance, maybe even fluffy later on or in part, just make sure it's made clear that that isn't exactly normal behavior.
But then again, I wouldn't call it a "responsibility" but simply a bit of common sense. Because even if it's not for everyone and a lot of people won't want to get behind why one would even write this (cough because it's been part of that type of literature or movies since humanity has started producing them; oldest business in the world), because there's people out there who wouldn't get behind two men having sex in the same way. If you would never want to read or imagine it, you can't imagine others would want to. Anyway, the point is: I want to get behind why the one who "takes the damage" would be willing to take it again or simply be fine with the damage taken. For that to be the case, the author HAS to acknowledge that something is off in the first place. If the other character just acts as if everything is totally normal or as if the other had never done anything wrong, it will feel cheap and in some cases it will become stupid.

Other than this, though, again, I belive it's up to the person reading, because what one person likes can be the poison to another. You have to look after yourself, especially when you go into a story that is marked with certain tags or, as a printed novel, obviously written for adults. About the fact that some readers of 18+ aren't actually 18+... I'm not even going to indulge that idiocracy, if someone had the gall to bring it one. Might as well delete the entire internet then, why don't you?
Anyway, that's my two cents. It's kind of late, so sorry for me being a bit chaotic here.

[helldancer]

Wow! Want to say thank you for all the interesting, well written opinions/ explanations to this difficult topic.
To be honest, it actually helped me. I feel more safe now with my approach.

I'm writing a mature story, setting is dark fantasy. I don't write a lot of gore/ horror elements, but most of the other topics, well...
I marked the story as mature/ 18+, even checking the boxes carefully for the specific topics on every chapter, always fearing I could miss something, so someone gets offended/ hurt.
On the other side I always had this feeling, that it's sufficient that I wrote in the description what the story contains. And that it's the readers responsibility to know if they're okay with these topics.

I was often a bit puzzled by the fact, that some stories that you can buy easily (quite possibly even as a minor) in book form in every store around here (not even tagged 18+), would be a "no go" online without big warnings. (Yes, most books got through some kind of testing, and online stories mostly don't. But that's why I talk about a series with lots of "vividly" described violence and sex.)

So, well... Where lies the responsibility in this case? It's the reader's responsibility. And with all I've read from you, I feel more on the safe side with this perspective now.
Thank you!

Some thoughts I have to the general topic in addition:
I'm definitely for showing different perspectives, so the reader can get a feeling for what is "normal".
Example: Some genres (like fantasy/ sci-fi) give the opportunity to dive into worlds, where m*rder, r*pe (we do censor these words?) or other taboos are something common. Something that isn't that horrible/ shaking like it is in our reality (at least parts of it, quite depending on the society you're living in, I assume).
If so, this difference should be explained through/ in the story; at least that's my opinion. So that it can't be considered normal for everybody, just for this specific reality.
And if it's not normal, I'm totally with @TheKillingAlice, it should definitely be made clear that something's off.

I, personally, am trying to draw a line between "normal" and "off" when it comes to hurting someone (physically and mentally). But this is super difficult, I know that. And it says a lot about my own boundaries where I draw this line, and not much about a greater "good or evil". I think, that goes for everyone. My opinion is that this means, I have to be open for criticism and discussions. (But I don't have to put up with inane slurs/ insults.)
(For me, for example, everything around LGBTIQ+ is fine. But I know that others, for whatever reasons, go crazy about this topic, feeling attacked from the mere mention. So they would claim they get hurt. I can't see a reason for that, so my line is at another place. Am I right? Am I wrong? Who knows. I think I have valid reasons for my position, but the others will claim that too.^^ Still, "I just don't like it" doesn't count in my eyes.)

Btw, I would love to have a tag for "please be quite a bit older than 18 to read this story", cause I sometimes get the feeling that 18 is just not old enough to be the right audience for my story. But I know that's kind of silly. In the end, age doesn't say that much about how resilient/ understanding someone is.

Oh my, I think I've digressed quite a bit. Sorry for that!
I felt the urge to write something to this topic, but it's late, I'm tired and I'm not sure if I made any sense.
Still, thank you all again for your insights! It was really helpful.

[NickRowler]

I have zero issues with authors who want to write sensitive topics. Tho my biggest criticism of some creators is when they write about a group of people and they sort of forget that these people exist in real life, they aren't just fictional/fantasy characters. Because in some cases it can come off a bit exploitive or even fetishy is some extremes.

[TheKillingAlice]

Some thoughts I have to the general topic in addition:I'm definitely for showing different perspectives, so the reader can get a feeling for what is "normal".Example: Some genres (like fantasy/ sci-fi) give the opportunity to dive into worlds, where m*rder, r*pe (we do censor these words?) or other taboos are something common. Something that isn't that horrible/ shaking like it is in our reality (at least parts of it, quite depending on the society you're living in, I assume).If so, this difference should be explained through/ in the story; at least that's my opinion. So that it can't be considered normal for everybody, just for this specific reality.And if it's not normal, I'm totally with @TheKillingAlice, it should definitely be made clear that something's off.

Since I was tagged here, I will take this part down, because I have some things to add. For example, the thing with the physical books: Frankly, people are so vary of that "new age", they disregard everything that is old. When an underaged kid buys a book that isn't for their age bracket, even in an online store, it is considered (and rightfully so, don't get me wrong!) to be the fault of the parent that didn't keep track of what their child is buying online (which could literally be anything nowadays, so yes, it's doesn't take an helicopter parent to try and keep track of what is being ordered) or even worse, at a store. At a store, the person selling it would be at fault first and foremost. But online, especially when you don't even have to pay for it, it's harder to see what your spawn is doing. So if we talk about what a minor can have access to, people just say it's someone's specific fault "in the real world", while it's harder to say who's at fault on the internet (still the parents in my eyes, but that's how easy it is to get rid of that pesky responsibility, because it's "impossible to track what they do online and I could never put a child lock on their internet, right?"). So the fault, first foremost, is now moved over to the one posting it, no matter how ridiculous that may seem.

As for the example of another world: That's not quite what I meant. You should definitely make sure to show with reactions of people how they think about these topics, but in a new world, where this might just be a thing that people have gotten used to, the character who comes in, being shocked by things that nobody else cares about, is the one that stands out. He doesn't deserve to be answered; we do. And we get our answers from the reactions of the people. That's why people and their reactions are so vital to story telling, especially in stories with foreign worlds!

I get what you mean about what is "normal" or "off". I think it's getting harder by the day, especially on the internet, where everyone's a critic, and sensibilities are going up. And with these sensibilities going up, there's stories in which behavior that was well on the edge of normal is now suddenly considered "extremely toxic", and instead of understanding that it's fiction and a wish to explore something you wouldn't or couldn't explore in reality, everything has to be like modern fucking daily life. If it makes sense within the story, it should be completely fine to be in the story. But nah, everything is toxic; every trope, every bit of jealousy, every bit of edge in a relationship that can be portrayed. I'm not saying a totally cute, fully story, isn't good as well, but everything that isn't perfect behavior is not supposed to be inherently toxic and shit either.
And hell, I just had someone tell me yesterday that it's odd for a thirteen-year-old girl to notice she had now a grown chest, compared to her completely flat torso from three minutes ago, implying that I sexualized her somehow and thus would attract the "wrong audience" or may lose readers over it. Prota died in the Prologue and traveled into a body from another world in Chapter 1, which is an older body than her previous one (she's now 17). It's literally one line, and I quote: "Despite the alarming fact that she suddenly had a visible chest where her seemingly thirteen-year-old body hadn't grown at all before, she was little more than skin and bone". Which means, her body is different. The point was to give her reason to think that time must have passed somehow, in a way, for this to happen. It confuses her, even before she sees herself in a mirror and realizes her face is completely different. I know, that's a different type of problem, but just to make the point - people read and understand things too differently. You will bring in your perception and the reader will bring in his. Whereas I did not even remotely try to imply such and haven't heard that before yesterday from another reader, this one seemed to be sure this was a problem. In the end, it's up to the reader to take themselves out if it's something they can't read. Your responsibility should be to cut into some topics in the blurb text, online you can even add the corresponding tags, and that's it. Why do you even need to mark certain chapters? Yes, of course I do it if it is required, but I still don't get it. If there's something in the story you can't read, you shouldn't read the story. Otherwise, you might skip a chapter and lose out on half the context of the following chapter and with that, you lose out on story, potential character building scenes and a way to understand what you are reading. Why bother reading something if you know you will have to skip shit?

[helldancer]

Thank you for your detailed answer!
I try to make it short.

I get what you say regarding the books and the internet stuff and the responsibility, and I agree with you.
I just want to add, that it's not the fact, that almost everyone could buy such a book, that puzzled me. To be honest, I do think that this is a good thing. I'm more surprised how different some topics/ stories are treated online and offline. As I said, these books don't even have a warning on it, and I'm totally okay with that (maybe I'm too liberal, but well, it's just how I feel about it). But if you would post a story like this here, it would be taken down if not plastered with warnings.
That seems... unbalanced.
And for me it says a lot about the topic of responsibility and how different it is "rated" in different contexts.

Ah, yes! I get that too! I'm sorry, I think I wrote it in a misleading way, maybe I let out some things.
I meant a world where even the protagonist is used to it. Like... I write about demons in parts. When I write from their perspective it would be odd to let them even care a bit about the pain they inflict on others. It's just what they do. If there wouldn't be an outsider coming in, this would never be a discussed topic.
So if I would decide to write in their world, with their rules and their habits only, it would be quite an ugly experience. But it would be possible. In this case it should be made clear, that this is a very specific world, where you can experience some very specific things, because they're normal there. And only there.
But this is just a thought experiment, thinking a bit about the extreme forms someone maybe could want to write/ experience through writing.
I'm with you, the reactions/ interactions between out- and insiders are our "window" to understanding the rules of foreign worlds.

That's... just right. Can't add a thing.
And wow... I don't know your story, but that seems like a really, hm, "focused" view on this topic. I mean, should a person not be aware that their body has changed? And if it's a part of a body that a girl definitley is comparing with others/ thinking about at least from time to time, even more so. Would be strange if not. But okay... As you said, everyone will read/ interprete the way they want/ do. We, as writers, can try to not step into the deepest holes of cliché/ stereotype or something, but we can't control what others make of our stories.
The thing with the chapters seems to be a Tapas thing. On Wattpad I just tagged my whole story mature, that's it (well, and the description with some warning words, of course). I do get it, to a point. There are some topics that seem to be extremely disturbing for a lot of people. So they would read my story, but be weirded out by this special topic. It's the choice between them not reading my story at all, and them just skipping this one chapter (even though it's an important one, as you said for context/ character growth/...).
For now I'm grateful for everyone who gives my story a try, so I try to not scare potential readers away and give them every warning they might want. But in the end I would prefer readers who can read all of it.

Again, thank you for your time and insights.

[TheKillingAlice]

I get what you say regarding the books and the internet stuff and the responsibility, and I agree with you.I just want to add, that it's not the fact, that almost everyone could buy such a book, that puzzled me. To be honest, I do think that this is a good thing. I'm more surprised how different some topics/ stories are treated online and offline. As I said, these books don't even have a warning on it, and I'm totally okay with that (maybe I'm too liberal, but well, it's just how I feel about it). But if you would post a story like this here, it would be taken down if not plastered with warnings.That seems... unbalanced.

Uh, but that was exactly what I mean! You see, a few years ago, I knew someone with that exact problem. They were sued by the mother of a minor, because they wrote a story (I believe it was in austria, where this happened?) that would be behind markings of age restriction an such, but the minor just ticked off that they were totally of age and then she was somehow traumatized. if it were a physical book, the parents would have seen it or could have prevented the child from even buying it. But online on the phone, which the child is looking at the entire day anyway, they couldn't know what she was up to. And because it was marked 18+ but not warned or something, it was the uploaders fault, apparently.
Now, I only knew this person from the internet, but I did hear things like this here and there back then, which is why I believed it. It's more of a hear say still, because I don't have evidence. Logically speaking though, I know that sites have problems with just that. People complaining about how terrible these sites were, after not caring what their children are doing, until they can blame some random "malfunction" of their child on it. Nobody would actually dare go against a publishing house, because a book exists. It's preset in the minds of the people, if there's something that you don't want to read, you won't buy it. But websites get flagged down by child protective services (we have easy accessible platforms for that in Germany, but I don't know what they are called in other countries) and other shit time and time again. Because it seems to easier to access without even leaving the room, while nobody will notice, if you know what I mean? That's the only thing that comes to mind as an explanation for this phenomenon.
Also, I'm with you on the liberal note. I have certain things I can't read either. Tough luck if I catch one of those - I will just drop it and that's it. Most major "triggers", or sensitive topics, are easy to pick up on the blurb, title, cover, etc. That's enough.

Ah, I get what you mean. And it's true, they wouldn't talk about that, but I'm sure you can build the world in a way that it's easy to understand for your readers that that's just the sort of place this is. One also plays with tropes and clichées there, to explain without words, the things that people know in an instant without having to be told.

Yeah, right? I was really taken aback, to be honest...
I didn't specifically mean Tapas, because I knew that "certain chapter tagging" thing from other situations, but you are indeed right, Tapas even has a function for it.
In a way, you are right, but if it results in people misunderstanding a character or even the story, it's just not for me. I don't have many readers either, especially not on Tapas. But I would want the ones who read my stuff to actually be able to understand all of it. So yeah, I totally get your point, it just feels like such a shame.

Also, thank you too.

[vfaqvrf]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

[Lensing]

It´s only important what´s true for you.
Your responsibility is none of my or anybody´s else business

[helldancer]

Ouch, that's bad. Really, I know how easy it is for minors to get to stuff they're not ready for. But that was also a case when I was in school, and that was... well, let's say quite some years ago. So to sue someone for providing such a story, that seems really off for me. But you're right. Maybe they just wanted to put the blame on someone else...
And in a way that's right, cause you really have easier access to all kind of things through the internet. But for me that just means that children have to been teached about how to handle it in a good and for them healthy way. And not let them learn alone and then be surprised when it wents downhill... (And that goes for all things that can be hurting, not only fictional stories.)
Exactly. When I get to a point I think "oh, no, don't wanna read that", I just stop. And I'm not angry at the one who wrote it. (Okay, one exception: When it's totally unnecessary and disturbs the flow of the story just for adding drama for dramas sake. That would make me pi**ed.)

Definitely.

Understandable! Sorry for you, you had to experience that...
Ah, see, yes, I meant that function.

Yeah, I second that. For the moment I'm just a bit "needy" for readers, but I think we're on the same track here, over all.

One last question:
Du bist auch aus Deutschland? Cooler Zufall.

[UrMom]

Just echoing what remiquise said. I'm super anti-artistic censorship. For me the only responsibility an adult author has is to mark their work as 18+, as much as people want the fiction they consume to be neatly organized filtered, it is ultimately their own responsibility to control what they read.

I personally put of content warnings, as well as unnecessary personal info, because I don't have the energy to deal with backlash from people getting upset about the subjects in my comic, or tell me I'm doing 'Z' wrong. I've also considered putting up a "this is just a work of fiction" statement in case the wrong people find my work and try to sue, apparently there is a real place sharing the same name as an establishment in my story. Whoopee, fun! You also have May Leitz, a horror fan and writer of transgressive horror who uses warnings because she herself has been triggered when being thrusts into disturbing media without warning, but as far as I know her experience is more with videos than books.
On the other hand, though, there are folks like Gretchen Felker-Martin, a transgressive horror writer who never puts up any warnings because for her it is up to the reader to put the book down if it's too much. (Which, yes, the reader should do that if they can't handle the subjects in a piece of fiction.) Gretchen is also known for the type of dark fiction she makes, so it shouldn't be a surprise if a passage in her novel is kinda messed up, you should just put it down or take it in doses if you don't have an iron stomach.

So again, my whole stance is it's not the author's responsibility to babysit their readers, especially if they're adults. Except putting up an age rating for legal reasons. If someone is influenced to do bad stuff because of fiction, or dangerously misses the mark due to their own media illiteracy, or gets extremely parasocial about it, that person shouldn't be consuming fiction to begin with. I would say something about fear mongering or hate speech, but if you have those in your fiction you weren't a moral person to begin with, and it should still be up the the reader how they deal with something like that.

[TheKillingAlice]

Yes, it's been a few years (and I mean over a decade), but I did get involved in some stuff here and there, seeing people overreact big time and the social climate online isn't getting any better lately. If anything, it gets worse.
And it is true, that's why I can somewhat get behind it, but that's also why I blame the parents and hate the way they like to shirk responsibility. New age? Well, you gotta adapt, or stop complaining.
It kind of speaks to a lot of the younger people, especially those screaming for trigger warnings everywhere, when you get the feeling they don't like taking responsibility about anything at all. Not even what they can or can't read, everyone has to watch their step so they don't have to. It may not be everyone, obviously, but it's a very vocal minority and it's getting very annoying. Especially when it comes to art, and stories in particular.
And yes, I know what you mean - if it just doesn't fit, no matter what it is and if I like reading it or not, I would still be pissed off xDD

Waaas, als ob? Okay, das hab ich jetzt nicht kommen sehen. xDDDD

[Lensing]

Na dann können wir uns ja auch auf deutsch unterhalten

[TheKillingAlice]

Was ist mit diesem Thread los? xD

[helldancer]

Ahahahaha, okay, das war jetzt echt unerwartet.

[TheKillingAlice]

Wir müssen den deutschen Server erwischt haben oder so

[kyupol]

As creative people, it should be our responsibility to stand up for freedom of expression.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
-Martin Niemöller-

There are no tyrants if there are no slaves
-Dr Jose Rizal

[allisoncandraw]

I think an author's level of responsibility depends on what themes they're tackling, and how they want themselves and their work to be perceived.

To me, trigger warnings are important. It puts a bad taste in my mouth when an author refuses to use TWs, even if the topics at hand don't upset me personally. I also think an author should be careful about how they approach certain topics so they're not promoting abuse, bigotry, etc. I'm not a fan of work where sensitive content is thrown in there just to be edgy.

But at the end of the day, it's up to the author to decide how they want to approach sensitive subjects. They'll likely receive negative feedback if they choose to be careless, though.