Romanticizing abusive relationships

[Rowein]

First of all, I apologize because my grammar is not the best and maybe what I write sounds a bit confusing. Apologies in advance.

I think it's a complicated issue, because according to me, the main reason of the romanticization of abusive relationships is the simple fact that they were normalized by society. It's only now that gender theories have become more popular, that people are realizing and have begun to analyze a lot of things that previously thought they were good and normal.

This is a very good thing and I think now the important thing is to create things that visualize the truths we are learning, that show positive relationships where equality prevails. It's our duty to make that difference.

Thank you for creating the post and open the possibility of discussing this topic.

[Hodge]

Well I'm pretty degenerate, so I don't particularly mind haha. I'd also hope that people know to distance themselves from stories. But in the land of stories, it seems like line between healthy and abusive is blurred, but maybe that's the reality of romantic relationships for many. I wouldn't know honestly, even fluffy light-hearted romances to me are rather twisted. Also, it may be that for many, the meaning of the word "love," doesn't just come down to what people consider "healthy" nowadays.

For example, I think "healthy" implies valuing your own physical and emotion well-being, but many might see "true love" in the willingness to suffer for the other. Maybe even to the extent of willing to die for your loved one, but overall, romantic relationship often do necessitate some degree of sacrifice for the other, but we'd say only to a certain point or something like that. Or hell, maybe not at all and you should just get out since it really is a matter of just using each other, whether for pleasure or pain. Or maybe romance to someone is eroticism, and taken to an extreme is possessive and abusive, an animalistic desire only held back by social norms. Or for instance, some omegaverse stories play around with the idea of love itself. If we are just animals and love is just a feeling, then what's wrong with treating it as such, determined by biology and what not.

I think if one looks at it more philosophically it might offer more insight, because at least that's what I'm thinking about when I'm writing stories, even the really degenerate ones. I'm usually thinking bout things already in romance, and just taking it to an extreme in order to expose it. It's not really about what I think is the right or healthy way of approaching a relationship, it's about what goes on underneath and peeling off the layers. Though I always try to redeem it in some way, since maybe even in the most looked down upon relationships, there is something beautiful in it.

[shazzbaa]

I dunno, I feel like........ somebody might like the idea of behaviour that in real life would be wrong and harmful, they might find it real steamy or exciting and fun to imagine, and then this disconnect appears between the people who are like "No, I've seen what this looks like in real life and-- it's harmful! It's abuse! Don't encourage this sickening behaviour!!" and the people who are just expressing their fantasies in their stories without realising their slip is showing, so to speak.

There are also people who know the difference, who know what real world abuse looks like and would never condone it, but also boiiiiiiiii this unhealthy power dynamic in a story is really hot for them.... and those tend to be the people who label and tag it as such the best. People who know what dubcon is can write and read dubcon to their heart's content as long as they know and make clear that it's dubcon.

I like Lord Vincent's thoughts on the matter a lot. and I like the idea that "label and tag your dubcon" is a more effective path to push for than "don't write dubcon or else you're corrupting the youth."

[lunaartemisasama]

For me all is good as long as people are able to separate fantasy from reality. If the line is not so clear it's better to avoid that stuff.

Also I used to read old light novels from my grandma magazines, for females only, and the guys used to be pretty possesive as it shown in some josei manga, specially the old ones. And I am not talking about horror / thriller, just "normal" romance.

I don't think is cool to be seen as an object but there's something cool and romantic when people fight for honour, even if in RL may be seem as pretty useless.

Also when you are a teenager more drama happens, because you are still learning to manage your emotions. For example is not uncommon that your first love ended because of something inmature, like cheating on the other person or shouting them, but you learn from your mistakes and when you are with another person you try to be the best of you. So maybe the first person may think WTF why wasn't that...human being... like that with me?? And maybe that's because we learn from our live experience.

And that's why Leela fell in love with old Fry (Lars) in Futurama OoO

[Pandastrophic]

I think the only way to combat this is to ignore and to create something that's good, kind of drowning out the evil noise haha. Not saying every relationship has to be rosy and peachy, but just have WELL WRITTEN relationships between your characters.

We also can't forget that relationships are messy. Control issues, arguments, distrust, those are the ugly sides of partnerships that even the healthiest relationship may have to deal with at one point. A comic focusing on relationships will eventually have to come across some of those problems, or there will be little to no tension in the story

I think when it comes to writing relationships its more about balancing it out, I feel like every relationship can have unhealthy aspects of it, people are flawed and get jelouse, be controlling, etc and writing about that is important for balancing the plot and creating tension as well as developing the characters. However the problem lies in portrayed those unhealthy aspects as something that is completely romantic and ok rather than have it be an issue that the couple has to overcome or solve.

Also @ratique I'm kinda jelouse that you haven't come across this much, I read a lot of romance manga and webcomics and I feel like avoiding abuse = cute tropes is difficult. I actually agree with a lot of the points you brought up, i guess it mostly comes down to the writing itself and how the creator handles the trope.

I like Lord Vincent's thoughts on the matter a lot. and I like the idea that "label and tag your dubcon" is a more effective path to push for than "don't write dubcon or else you're corrupting the youth."

Yeah I totally agree with this too, labelling it as such will get an audience who probably have a better understanding of it rather than the casual teen reader who doesn't know any better and think it's romantic.

[Wumbl]

It's just what happens when people who haven't fully matured romantically try to write romantic plots.

There are ways of writing this kind of stuff into a relationship without romanticising it but it's all in your attitude. I've written plenty of unhealthy relationships but bc I'm an adult who has dated as well as been in a serious relationship for some time, I can handle this stuff.

A lot of young writers wanna dive in though - in fact it's normally in the teens that people write this kinda stuff because they're at a weird inbetween age where they're maturing in terms of their interest but they don't yet understand things like adult life, falling in love or anything like that. They're newly interested in relationships but aren't actually having them - they're bound to write them poorly and get over-excited.

It's best to let them know very gently when they're going too far. Don't make them feel like bad people bc they're not at all. They just lack the knowledge and experience necessary. Just let these kinds of writers know that these behaviours are in fact abusive. Chances are they just haven't considered it. Once they start to acknowledge that the relationships is a bad one and start to portray it from that angle a bit more you can say they have grown as a creator.

[Klaustasya]

I don't know if i should be saying this, but i'm planning to do a GL webcomic and their relationship is gonna be PURPOSELY abusive. Is it still dislikable? xD
Of course this plot won't ONLY talk about sexuals abuses all the time, there will be character development of course, genuine interactions, mature thinking and bittersweet stuff (with a right dose of romantic cliches because i still like a few of them xD) don't worry, i'm not promoting myself or defending abusive relationships, just wanted to say that this story is gonna start as an abusive one on purpose (and it won't be random but properly generated from the plot features as well) to translate into something more realistic i hope.

My comic aside, the only abusive relationship comic i've read so far was Killing Stalking and more than dislike it or blame it for the content i was pretty much confused like "....So there is even a plot here?" i dunno, i liked the art so far but about the overall plot i couldn't get the point xD (Maybe because abusive relationships story doesn't even one in the first place, and they're just bad? Not a statement, i'm currently asking haha)

I'm not as informed as you guys are about the topic, and since i have to write a comic on it (maybe without turning it to be real shit) i'd like to be delighted on this and gather more of your opinios, but i'll just open another slightly different topic from this when the time will come

[Wumbl]

planning to do a GL webcomic and their relationship is gonna be PURPOSELY abusive. Is it still dislikable?

I have a really unhealthy GL relationship in my comic and the fact that it is unhealthy is a massive plot point! Of course it's not dislikeable immediately. So long as you know it's abusive and handle it correctly it's fine. The problem is when a creator adds abusive behaviours into a story and doesn't even realise or acknowledge that it's abusive.
It's basically just bc people who have had bad relationships will be uncomfortable if it's not handled well and it comes across as disrespectful if you treat a bad relationship like it's something wonderful. We like to see people go through relatable experiences but we don't like to see really inaccurate portrayals of those situations. So long as the characters respond to the situation realistically and it's shown what kind of negative effects it has on the characters it's not a problem at all for the story.

[Jophiel]

heya!! english is not my main language so I apologize for any errors/wrong grammar, hopefully I dont come off as confusing or even condoningaaa ;;

As a person who's pretty naive for a relationship, I can't write romance between characters very well so I try to keep the couples in my story at a bare minimum while I try to research on relationships, unhealthy and healthy ones alike.

Sadly there are a lot of literatures here locally that has questionable relationships, it doesn't help either that most of them are pulled off from sites like Wattpad with user-bases that are inexperienced with these types of relationships. There are publications that feature the MC being kidnapped by some random gang- only for her to love one of her captors. Analyzing the character tropes showed in the tv shows too shows behaviors that are a bit problematic. I guess it's because of gender roles as well? Atleast here in our place a lot of elders say that when someone's giving a girl a lot of attention (be it positive or destructive), it means they like her. I think it's a really harmful way to imprint it on a young person's mind specially. Not to mention people here preach obsessiveness or even support stalking their crush/ex like the others have said.

There are a lot of media here where (typically) the girl falls in love with someone who doesn't treat her any good and/or is.

Personally I have one unhealthy relationship (?) in my story but the only time its romantic and healthy is in AUs. I do read comics with unhealthy relationships but only when it shows psychological or shows it how it really is- dark and undesirable. As for examples, there was a comic I've read a long before because I like the art and all despite it having no plot (like most BL I've read before) One inquired about how they are concerned about uke character's potentially toxic relationship with seme and the creator just replied that seme was literally a golden pack served in a silver platter and all and it just..kind of rubbed a lot of people in the wrong way.

Just shows that is NOT the right way to reply;; I dont mind people consuming those things in media as long as they dont do those things irl. This got long but Im relieved to see this topic is being discussed in a civil manner ;;

[Pandastrophic]

One inquired about how they are concerned about uke character's potentially toxic relationship with seme and the creator just replied that seme was literally a golden pack served in a silver platter and all and it just..kind of rubbed a lot of people in the wrong way.

Wow... that's such a terrible way of handling the situation... although I see this kind of thing a lot, like putting the abuser on a pedestal. Although I'm so glad it's being called out more often.

[Klaustasya]

The "problem" of my story is that IT HAPPENS that the girl being abused does fall in love with the abuser (who does the same) and of course this trope is pretty bad.....but i don't know, i'm sure there is a way to portraying it realistacally bad but at the same time "possible" or "acceptable" that she falls for her anyway, even though being some kind of abuser.

[Klaustasya]

Also one thing: I recenly had the chance to meet a very nice girl that revealed to me and some friends during a dinner that got into pretty dark themes later, that she was sexually abused by her uncle when she was younger. When we told her "Did you tell that to anyone? Did you get any help?" her answer was:
"No i kept it for myself the whole time. But for it's in the past now. I forgave him"
.....Well cases can be 3 here:

• Maybe the abuses were "lighter" like he didn't heavily abused of her, only touching (thou, it's already a big bad thing)
• She was lying.
• She's an angel.

But this was just an example to say, that it is bad to romanticize abusive relationships of every kind, but if it's true what this girl said to us at that time, i think there are rare and real cases where the victim, okay, doesn't fall in love with the abuser but can "forgive him".
Still sounds weird to me, but i've never been into an abusive relationship (fortunately) so i can't really tell.

The GL comic i've been thinking about lately it has an abusive relationship where both girls falls for each other, BUT ONLY after they go through character development, deep dynamics, a temporarily pardon,and a skip time of 7 years. And even though many people will probably dislike it, i'm still gonna publish it maybe and give a proper warning first, because i'm aware about how much delicately this thing has to be handled or how you handle it badly.

[LordVincent]

About the girl you mentioned, her response to the situation is actually pretty common. Victims usually don't tell anyone else for a variety of reasons that can span from, or include all of: fear, shame, wanting to protect the abuser, the victim is manipulated, the victim thinks they are at fault, the victim thinks people will think they are overreacting, the victim simply doesn't have the energy and doesn't care about themselves, or the victim doesn't realize it's a toxic situation because they are so used to it that this is their normal.

Forgiving your abuser may sound counterproductive, but it is in fact te most commonly suggested thing by therapists. Not for the sake of the abuser, but because hate is a heavy thing to carry for the victim.

I was put through online sexual abuse and manipulation for 3-4 years of my mid-late teens by a man who was 15 years older than myself. I didn't tell anyone because I blamed myself, I was manipulated by him into thinking it was all okay and that my purpose in life was to fix his shitty life, and I was ashamed of the whole ordeal. After I got out of the situation I still kept quiet about it because I found it embarrassing and thought people would call me an idiot for letting it happen to me.

I still haven't gotten to the point where I can forgive him. I envy those who have.

[nascentechuva]

I can attest to this, and can't emphasize enough how much I agree. Both personally and through the experiences of the women around me. My psychology professor was sexually assaulted by three men. While she told police, she never mentioned it to any of her partners, up until she met her husband. She told us because the end of the year was drawing close, and she wanted to leave us with something to remember about coping mechanisms.

They never found them, and now that so many years have passed, she's forgiven them. I don't think it makes her an angel. I think it makes her stronger, and healthier.

[djwaglmuffin]

A few years ago a fellow creator told me that they wanted to illustrate how people can "evolve".

I had to explain to them that, in reality, and if they were trying to stay as true to life as possible, that abusers don't "evolve" most of the time. They make only minor, superficial adjustments to sway the PUBLIC eye that they've turned over a new leaf but the abuse usually continues in some way (if not worse, in some cases).

In anything written by fujoshi (and I am going to make the distinction, because to say that all LGBT comics and prose is like this is false), I noted that this kind of abusive relationship is turned way up and, for some reason, people fawn all over it and praise it as good writing when, those of us who were/are in abusive relationships find ourselves cringing at what we're reading/seeing. For some reason, the abuse is immediately identified when we're talking about hetero male on female abuse but not the other way around and not in fujoshi-written content.

Now: don't lie to your audience.

Abuse happens and abusive relationships are apart of life (as shitty as that sounds) but what you are showing the audience is the lessons learned from that abuse and illustrating justice, no matter how subtle.

Also: This is NOT to be confused with the "Belligerent sexual tension" trope where people don't get along with each other at first and parts of the story are dedicated to watching their relationship grow/they discover the potential/they discover they have feelings for each other.

Just because someone is MEAN doesn't necessarily mean they are abusive, per say.

[unknown_user]

Did anyone see that anime Amnesia based off some otome game?

One of the characters literally locks the female MC in a dog cage and drugs her. I was so shocked by this that I looked up the game which is was based off and found out that not only was the the storyline of the character in the game, but he was actually voted the most popular guy from the game that most girls like his storyline the most.

About the visual novel... had the abusive line good end?
I haven't play this novel, but I have liked visual novel "Tsukihime". In that novel you mostly choose the options of the boy's behaviour, who is MC, so player learns his POV. There were cruel things here, including that player had an option to rape some of girl characters. But if they choose this option, good ending have become unreachable (if I remember correctly). I personally see nothing wrong about it, cause it shows bad consequences of such a things.

[Inspector_Spinda]

I haven't read much bad stuff. I'm generally pretty careful when I consume media so at worst I'll accidentally flip through something at the library that's mediocre that I don't take in at all and totally forget about in 2 seconds.

But. I have spent some time trying to understand the Twilight dynamic. I think it's so popular because if someone is otherwise dangerous or evil etc, and they still "love you" it's very endearing. Like it's totally against they're nature, but still you're so special that they'll make you an exception and think you're important over other things. Even more sexy if there's a struggle with their true nature because it means they're really trying.

Course not saying it's good, but that's basically the mentality of people who like it.

[beta1042]

You play as the girl and to my knowledge the only way to avoid being caged and drugged is to avoid his storyline. He will cage and drug you no matter what you say or do because he thinks it's for your own good...

I never actually played the game and I'm trying to remember how it ends...but I know in the bad ending if you escape he essentially finds you, recages you, and it alludes to you becoming his sex slave XD So atleast they realize thats the bad ending.

I think in the good ending you have to prove over and over you trust him and want him and stuff before he finally lets you out.

[unknown_user]

Well, in this case maybe this game should be named "Stockholm syndrome" instead

[joannekwan]

I wonder if romanticized abusive relationships are more prevalent in Asian-produced media like manga and webtoons and those that take after it? As far as comics go. I'm not that aware of the western YA novel scene.

Like the only western comic example I can think of is Joker and Harley Quinn? But as far as I know many of the DC comics never romanticize it and present it as a twisted, bad relationship.

Thoughts?