Romanticizing abusive relationships

[nascentechuva]

I can attest to this, and can't emphasize enough how much I agree. Both personally and through the experiences of the women around me. My psychology professor was sexually assaulted by three men. While she told police, she never mentioned it to any of her partners, up until she met her husband. She told us because the end of the year was drawing close, and she wanted to leave us with something to remember about coping mechanisms.

They never found them, and now that so many years have passed, she's forgiven them. I don't think it makes her an angel. I think it makes her stronger, and healthier.

[djwaglmuffin]

A few years ago a fellow creator told me that they wanted to illustrate how people can "evolve".

I had to explain to them that, in reality, and if they were trying to stay as true to life as possible, that abusers don't "evolve" most of the time. They make only minor, superficial adjustments to sway the PUBLIC eye that they've turned over a new leaf but the abuse usually continues in some way (if not worse, in some cases).

In anything written by fujoshi (and I am going to make the distinction, because to say that all LGBT comics and prose is like this is false), I noted that this kind of abusive relationship is turned way up and, for some reason, people fawn all over it and praise it as good writing when, those of us who were/are in abusive relationships find ourselves cringing at what we're reading/seeing. For some reason, the abuse is immediately identified when we're talking about hetero male on female abuse but not the other way around and not in fujoshi-written content.

Now: don't lie to your audience.

Abuse happens and abusive relationships are apart of life (as shitty as that sounds) but what you are showing the audience is the lessons learned from that abuse and illustrating justice, no matter how subtle.

Also: This is NOT to be confused with the "Belligerent sexual tension" trope where people don't get along with each other at first and parts of the story are dedicated to watching their relationship grow/they discover the potential/they discover they have feelings for each other.

Just because someone is MEAN doesn't necessarily mean they are abusive, per say.

[unknown_user]

Did anyone see that anime Amnesia based off some otome game?

One of the characters literally locks the female MC in a dog cage and drugs her. I was so shocked by this that I looked up the game which is was based off and found out that not only was the the storyline of the character in the game, but he was actually voted the most popular guy from the game that most girls like his storyline the most.

About the visual novel... had the abusive line good end?
I haven't play this novel, but I have liked visual novel "Tsukihime". In that novel you mostly choose the options of the boy's behaviour, who is MC, so player learns his POV. There were cruel things here, including that player had an option to rape some of girl characters. But if they choose this option, good ending have become unreachable (if I remember correctly). I personally see nothing wrong about it, cause it shows bad consequences of such a things.

[Inspector_Spinda]

I haven't read much bad stuff. I'm generally pretty careful when I consume media so at worst I'll accidentally flip through something at the library that's mediocre that I don't take in at all and totally forget about in 2 seconds.

But. I have spent some time trying to understand the Twilight dynamic. I think it's so popular because if someone is otherwise dangerous or evil etc, and they still "love you" it's very endearing. Like it's totally against they're nature, but still you're so special that they'll make you an exception and think you're important over other things. Even more sexy if there's a struggle with their true nature because it means they're really trying.

Course not saying it's good, but that's basically the mentality of people who like it.

[beta1042]

You play as the girl and to my knowledge the only way to avoid being caged and drugged is to avoid his storyline. He will cage and drug you no matter what you say or do because he thinks it's for your own good...

I never actually played the game and I'm trying to remember how it ends...but I know in the bad ending if you escape he essentially finds you, recages you, and it alludes to you becoming his sex slave XD So atleast they realize thats the bad ending.

I think in the good ending you have to prove over and over you trust him and want him and stuff before he finally lets you out.

[unknown_user]

Well, in this case maybe this game should be named "Stockholm syndrome" instead

[joannekwan]

I wonder if romanticized abusive relationships are more prevalent in Asian-produced media like manga and webtoons and those that take after it? As far as comics go. I'm not that aware of the western YA novel scene.

Like the only western comic example I can think of is Joker and Harley Quinn? But as far as I know many of the DC comics never romanticize it and present it as a twisted, bad relationship.

Thoughts?

[HGohwell]

Ok it's been a while so take this with a grain of salt but the entire point of Amnesia imo when I played was about subverting expectations and nothing being what you imagine (although if you've played enough of these games or are familiar with tropes you see it coming a mile off) and yes it was supposed to be a mess. It wasn't romantasing abuse it was purposefully playing to abusive tropes because it's a messed up game focusing on some really messed up thing in places (one of your love interests has the whole "if you die, I live and if I die, you live".)

The one you're referring to is seemingly the most friendly and sweet, is the crazy protective one. The cold one who doesn't really acknowledge you is actually one of the sweetest gentlest guys. The popular idol guy surrounded by women is lonely and loving has possessive dangerous fans. The slightly scary stalker guy is actually protecting you from danger as much as possible to the point of screwing over the universe and himself. And I can't remember the Shin's plot but he was best boy. (Edit: a bit of thinking and I remember Shin's route is about him as the "bad boy" who is too blunt and has a dad in jail for manslaughter and is suspected of causing the MC's injuries and her amnesia and is actually a sweetheart) And I don't remember if it was the same in the game but in the anime the girl then chooses which one she wants to be her real world with which love interest after going through all the 5 parallel worlds.

TLDR: Amnesia was purposefully subverting peoples outward appearances and was a purposefully messed up game, not romanticizing anything and Shin was best boy.

[beta1042]

Ahh like i said i never played it, and I don't live in Japan so I don't know what the public opinion on it really was. I just figured it was an otome game, and those games are usually well... serving one purpose.

[HGohwell]

Mmm I know lots of people see the most famous bits like the cage and hear otome and assume. There's a pretty decent anime adaption, subbed and dubbed, that does a pretty good job with the vibe of it. Otome games are actually more and more getting plots and taking on darker themes, it's quite interesting seeing them evolve from basic bland girls gets guys for reasons I can't figure out to actual stories dealing with some very dark issues at times.

[Pandastrophic]

I'm not that aware of the western YA novel scene.

It's pretty prevalent in YA novels, it's like a huge issue too with many popular novels having problematic things
If you want some examples I can message you? I can name specific books and author who's YA novels are like mostly abusive relationships...

The only reason I haven't seen it in western comics is because western comics (not including indie comics) are mostly superheroes, even though I go and search for western comics that are other genre's (like romance) they're not easy to find at least where I live.
I feel we just see it more in Manga and Webtoon because there are way more romance genre comics to look through.

[amortelito]

We should be allowed to experiment in fiction because not everything is meant to be educational, or a manual of "how to become a better person". We can't ignore that some people fantasize with abuse (inflict or receive it), it is something that people might like to play with from the safety of a reader point of view.

I think that abuse is totally valid in a plot, what makes no sense is when an author tries too hard to justify the abuse. "Oh, he is not really evil, he has suffered so much" "Wait, but he redeems himself".
being sorry after the abuse doesn't make it less abusive!!! The dominant character never gets consequences for their behavior.
Being apologetic for the abuser is potentially dangerous because it fits the real-life domestic abuse mindset.

[Karmillina]

Toma was my favorite... until I went through his arc and was thoroughly disappointed ;;; as expected, yandere guys are not my type. After that Ikki became the more reasonable one, despite his crazy fangirls. Kent was boring and Shin was too edgy kek

[unknown_user]

@HGohwell Well, that's actually sounds interesting. Now I want to play this game to sort things out by myself.

[Kura]

About the visual novel... had the abusive line good end?

Watched my friend play this game. The good end for his route is basically "you accept that you're in a cage and are happy living like this and ok with him drugging you and isolating you from your friends and family"

The bad endings he pretty much either rapes or kills you.

Hell, he'll even show up in your routes with other characters and kill you (while my friend was trying to woe another dude the cage dude came, pushed her off a cliff, and then came to see if she was ok, and then bashed her head in with a rock when she responded with the other character's name)

EDIT: ALSO. While all this was happening you have a little boy spirit trapped in your head making it essentially happen to him too unless the mental link you're caught in with him got messed with. Making the game even more fked up.

[phen]

Hah, god, yes. I definitely am not a Toma fan. I've played Amnesia in both English and Japanese -- the end you're referring to is a bad end. The good end involves Toma discovering the MC's diary leading her to recapturing her memories and Toma apologising, going on to help her submit the data of the troll group harassing her to a fanclub leader. It's still awful, it continues to be a strikingly lame "redemption" for him.

The other dude, so many kill-endings with him! Ukyo! Yeah, he's the one with dissociative identity disorder (supposedly from trying to follow her through timelines and dying thousands of times). The romanticised anomalies portrayed in Amnesia are a'plenty, dang.

But this is centered around otome/female-audience visual novels. Does anyone know how the relationships are portrayed in harem games/male-audience dating sims? >.>

[Kura]

Dang that's right, for some reason I thought that was the good route, or was it that good route was so bullcrap that my friend decided that that bad ending was better than the good ending even though she thought it was trash cause the good ending was a out of character made no sense bad attempt at redemption experience? I don't know the whole game is generally a thing I try to block out of my memory tbh.

As for games aimed at guys, I don't actually get to sit through those much since all my friends that do the VN share are all female, as well as all the free games that Playstation keeps giving me cause I have PSN+ are all Otome, I really don't think I have ever gotten a VN for males from PSN+, only Otome.

There was one that a friend who is thirsty for yuri content played though, I don't remember what it was called (look. She just starts playing them in hangout and screen sharing while I'm working on comics, I don't make a point to go out and play these with friends for fun) I'm not sure it counts as a dating game cause it obviously takes it a step further and becomes a bow-chika-wow game. Anyway the plot was something like... you're a dude... that gets turned into a girl, and you get to seek out on lesbian adventures. Lame and iffy as hell but I don't pick these games my friend does.

And just... there was one event that you had to go through in EVERY SINGLE ROUTE. Where you got raped by your male teacher. You could NOT avoid this event, it happened in every single route no mater what girl you went after. It was the most annoying thing, every time that scene showed up it was just "fk... not this a*hole again WHY do I have to sit through this AGAIN" I don't know if it was some weird wish fulfillment thing to get it on with a lesbian since this was a game aimed at guys and not girls/actual lesbians, but you could NOT avoid this event at all. The scene was not presented in a scary way, I'm not sure if you could call it romanticized though but it was very much meant to arose the player.

Aside from that the only other one I can think of that they played is... maybe... Hunnie Pop (or however you spell that) and that was more... desperate attempts to pick the right options to get into girls pants than it really was any story.

On a side note, Amnisia was actually not as FKed up as a lot of the yaoi games my friends have played... holy crap... just... fk... give me the dude locking me in cages over the alien rape that results in shitting out meat babies game.

Edit: From what I have been told by my brother, stalking is apparently a common 'romantic' thing in male dating games, either by the male player stalking the girls or the female characters stalking you.

[HGohwell]

Two of the biggest male aimed games I can think of: Catherine and Fate/Stay Night series. Catherine I've never actually played in full but have played bits with friends. From the bits I've seen it's a fairly typical "men just can't be faithful" type involving and affair and eventually choice between the sexy seductive type and the stable marriage type. Fate/Stay Night one of the biggest anime franchises out there, has a big magical plot but seems to surprise a lot of people that it's original for is a sex heavy visual novel and a lot of these so called spin-offs to the original anime are just the different routes. There's a lot of messed up stuff in there as well, most notable in some of the side character, but it is of course famous for Rin one of the classic tsunderes.

Tsundere and yandere's are also the most obvious example of abuse towards males in some of these being considered cute. Yandere's not so much, although it does happen sometimes, but the tsundere is the classic. I've lost track of the amount of times I've got annoyed by the supposedly cute and feisty female lead best friend/love interest hitting their male lead, sometimes to the point where you can see when they've said something wrong there's a look of oh crap now I'm gonna get hit but that's considered cute and feisty and she's a strong female. I don't know why guys have decided the violent tsundere is attractive but I wish they'd stop. If a male character treated a love interest like that there would be outrage but violent tsunderes are acceptable and cute for some reason.

[joannekwan]

Ah yes, the tsundere's, now that's an archetype I've only ever seen promulgated in Asian media. I wonder why that is ...

[LordVincent]

My biggest problem with Catherine is how they handled that one trans character and the implications around her. Disgusting.

Otherwise a fairly entertaining game. Wish there were fewer gender stereotypes going on but it is what it is.