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Jan 2019

I wonder if romanticized abusive relationships are more prevalent in Asian-produced media like manga and webtoons and those that take after it? As far as comics go. I'm not that aware of the western YA novel scene.

Like the only western comic example I can think of is Joker and Harley Quinn? But as far as I know many of the DC comics never romanticize it and present it as a twisted, bad relationship.

Thoughts?

Ok it's been a while so take this with a grain of salt but the entire point of Amnesia imo when I played was about subverting expectations and nothing being what you imagine (although if you've played enough of these games or are familiar with tropes you see it coming a mile off) and yes it was supposed to be a mess. It wasn't romantasing abuse it was purposefully playing to abusive tropes because it's a messed up game focusing on some really messed up thing in places (one of your love interests has the whole "if you die, I live and if I die, you live".)

The one you're referring to is seemingly the most friendly and sweet, is the crazy protective one. The cold one who doesn't really acknowledge you is actually one of the sweetest gentlest guys. The popular idol guy surrounded by women is lonely and loving has possessive dangerous fans. The slightly scary stalker guy is actually protecting you from danger as much as possible to the point of screwing over the universe and himself. And I can't remember the Shin's plot but he was best boy. (Edit: a bit of thinking and I remember Shin's route is about him as the "bad boy" who is too blunt and has a dad in jail for manslaughter and is suspected of causing the MC's injuries and her amnesia and is actually a sweetheart) And I don't remember if it was the same in the game but in the anime the girl then chooses which one she wants to be her real world with which love interest after going through all the 5 parallel worlds.

TLDR: Amnesia was purposefully subverting peoples outward appearances and was a purposefully messed up game, not romanticizing anything and Shin was best boy.

Ahh like i said i never played it, and I don't live in Japan so I don't know what the public opinion on it really was. I just figured it was an otome game, and those games are usually well... serving one purpose.

Mmm I know lots of people see the most famous bits like the cage and hear otome and assume. There's a pretty decent anime adaption, subbed and dubbed, that does a pretty good job with the vibe of it. Otome games are actually more and more getting plots and taking on darker themes, it's quite interesting seeing them evolve from basic bland girls gets guys for reasons I can't figure out to actual stories dealing with some very dark issues at times.

It's pretty prevalent in YA novels, it's like a huge issue too with many popular novels having problematic things
If you want some examples I can message you? I can name specific books and author who's YA novels are like mostly abusive relationships...

The only reason I haven't seen it in western comics is because western comics (not including indie comics) are mostly superheroes, even though I go and search for western comics that are other genre's (like romance) they're not easy to find at least where I live.
I feel we just see it more in Manga and Webtoon because there are way more romance genre comics to look through.

We should be allowed to experiment in fiction because not everything is meant to be educational, or a manual of "how to become a better person". We can't ignore that some people fantasize with abuse (inflict or receive it), it is something that people might like to play with from the safety of a reader point of view.

I think that abuse is totally valid in a plot, what makes no sense is when an author tries too hard to justify the abuse. :rage:"Oh, he is not really evil, he has suffered so much" "Wait, but he redeems himself".
being sorry after the abuse doesn't make it less abusive!!! The dominant character never gets consequences for their behavior.
Being apologetic for the abuser is potentially dangerous because it fits the real-life domestic abuse mindset.

Toma was my favorite... until I went through his arc and was thoroughly disappointed ;;; as expected, yandere guys are not my type. After that Ikki became the more reasonable one, despite his crazy fangirls. Kent was boring and Shin was too edgy kek

Watched my friend play this game. The good end for his route is basically "you accept that you're in a cage and are happy living like this and ok with him drugging you and isolating you from your friends and family"

The bad endings he pretty much either rapes or kills you.

Hell, he'll even show up in your routes with other characters and kill you (while my friend was trying to woe another dude the cage dude came, pushed her off a cliff, and then came to see if she was ok, and then bashed her head in with a rock when she responded with the other character's name)

EDIT: ALSO. While all this was happening you have a little boy spirit trapped in your head making it essentially happen to him too unless the mental link you're caught in with him got messed with. Making the game even more fked up.

Hah, god, yes. I definitely am not a Toma fan. I've played Amnesia in both English and Japanese -- the end you're referring to is a bad end. The good end involves Toma discovering the MC's diary leading her to recapturing her memories and Toma apologising, going on to help her submit the data of the troll group harassing her to a fanclub leader. It's still awful, it continues to be a strikingly lame "redemption" for him.

The other dude, so many kill-endings with him! Ukyo! Yeah, he's the one with dissociative identity disorder (supposedly from trying to follow her through timelines and dying thousands of times). The romanticised anomalies portrayed in Amnesia are a'plenty, dang.

But this is centered around otome/female-audience visual novels. Does anyone know how the relationships are portrayed in harem games/male-audience dating sims? >.>

Dang that's right, for some reason I thought that was the good route, or was it that good route was so bullcrap that my friend decided that that bad ending was better than the good ending even though she thought it was trash cause the good ending was a out of character made no sense bad attempt at redemption experience? I don't know the whole game is generally a thing I try to block out of my memory tbh.

As for games aimed at guys, I don't actually get to sit through those much since all my friends that do the VN share are all female, as well as all the free games that Playstation keeps giving me cause I have PSN+ are all Otome, I really don't think I have ever gotten a VN for males from PSN+, only Otome.

There was one that a friend who is thirsty for yuri content played though, I don't remember what it was called (look. She just starts playing them in hangout and screen sharing while I'm working on comics, I don't make a point to go out and play these with friends for fun) I'm not sure it counts as a dating game cause it obviously takes it a step further and becomes a bow-chika-wow game. Anyway the plot was something like... you're a dude... that gets turned into a girl, and you get to seek out on lesbian adventures. Lame and iffy as hell but I don't pick these games my friend does.

And just... there was one event that you had to go through in EVERY SINGLE ROUTE. Where you got raped by your male teacher. You could NOT avoid this event, it happened in every single route no mater what girl you went after. It was the most annoying thing, every time that scene showed up it was just "fk... not this a*hole again WHY do I have to sit through this AGAIN" I don't know if it was some weird wish fulfillment thing to get it on with a lesbian since this was a game aimed at guys and not girls/actual lesbians, but you could NOT avoid this event at all. The scene was not presented in a scary way, I'm not sure if you could call it romanticized though but it was very much meant to arose the player.

Aside from that the only other one I can think of that they played is... maybe... Hunnie Pop (or however you spell that) and that was more... desperate attempts to pick the right options to get into girls pants than it really was any story.

On a side note, Amnisia was actually not as FKed up as a lot of the yaoi games my friends have played... holy crap... just... fk... give me the dude locking me in cages over the alien rape that results in shitting out meat babies game.

Edit: From what I have been told by my brother, stalking is apparently a common 'romantic' thing in male dating games, either by the male player stalking the girls or the female characters stalking you.

Two of the biggest male aimed games I can think of: Catherine and Fate/Stay Night series. Catherine I've never actually played in full but have played bits with friends. From the bits I've seen it's a fairly typical "men just can't be faithful" type involving and affair and eventually choice between the sexy seductive type and the stable marriage type. Fate/Stay Night one of the biggest anime franchises out there, has a big magical plot but seems to surprise a lot of people that it's original for is a sex heavy visual novel and a lot of these so called spin-offs to the original anime are just the different routes. There's a lot of messed up stuff in there as well, most notable in some of the side character, but it is of course famous for Rin one of the classic tsunderes.

Tsundere and yandere's are also the most obvious example of abuse towards males in some of these being considered cute. Yandere's not so much, although it does happen sometimes, but the tsundere is the classic. I've lost track of the amount of times I've got annoyed by the supposedly cute and feisty female lead best friend/love interest hitting their male lead, sometimes to the point where you can see when they've said something wrong there's a look of oh crap now I'm gonna get hit but that's considered cute and feisty and she's a strong female. I don't know why guys have decided the violent tsundere is attractive but I wish they'd stop. If a male character treated a love interest like that there would be outrage but violent tsunderes are acceptable and cute for some reason.

My biggest problem with Catherine is how they handled that one trans character and the implications around her. Disgusting.

Otherwise a fairly entertaining game. Wish there were fewer gender stereotypes going on but it is what it is.

I think it's in western media in male form more often. The pulling pigtails thing, there's an odd thought that in youngsters "he's mean to you because he likes you". The most obvious western example of a girl doing it is I can think of is Helga from Hey Arnold. I'm quite fond of a tsundere in the more harmless form of furious denial of an obvious crush, that's rather endearing but when it moves into violence and abuse, as it is more often more recently, I go off it really fast. Especially since the excuse it very often in anime fandom "it's for comedy don't take it seriously, don't you understand slapstick", even in shows where everything else is supposed to be taken seriously.

True, but I suppose in Hey Arnold's case Helga was framed as a bully and a bit deranged. Unlike in animes were tsundere's are presented as the main object of affection unquestionably.

Tbh Helga's a weird one. They did go to length to make her crush kinda creepy but then they do get together anyway. But yeah she was just the first example to the tsundere's mean because I like him attitude. Maybe it's something to do with western media preferring their girls to be shy and reveal a more confident wild side (look at all those stories about the plain girl finally having fun and getting the guy) while tsundere's are often wild or harsh to start with and then with enough love settle. Possibly something to do with different standards in the ideal partner and "fixing" them. The west tends to lean more towards men being the bad boy or sexy jerk love interest which is about the closest thing I can think of in western media.

One I see a lot in Hollywood movies that is aimed at guys is the "keep pushing / harassing her until she stop saying no, because she secretly wants it, or 'just doesn't really KNOW you yet" this often coupled alongside 'stalking for love'

Which is just harassment irl even though the movies are not painting it that way.