Self censorship

[Lensing]

"personally i think everyone should be held to a certain standard when it comes to what they put in their work and if they insist on a certain thing then warn folks ahead of time so they can avoid whatever material or content that they would find distasteful"

can you please give an example (beside the obvious ones which are "may contain violence, swear words, erotic content) so I can understand?

[Lensing]

Just a reminder, this is the topic´s question:
"do YOU self censor your own work and then not write it even if you would want to?"

[VibrantFox]

can you please give an example

for this i'd say maybe certain more polarized views/opinions/beliefs and the like so if someone with more right extremist opinions happened to have a body of work that either directly included those things or even vaguely alluded to them i'd prefer if there were forwewarning to them being in there

if we're to tie it to the original topic of "do you self censor" my example would be how i'd wanted to work on a story with a more modern/urban setting which would include folks from a variety of cultural/racial backgrounds and gender identities/sexualities (living in a US like setting) but i'd put the project aside [which i guess in a way counts as self censoring] as i didn't feel i'd had enough information or insight into how to go about properly portraying these characters. sure i've got the context of my own identity and i live in a very big city so i'm exposed to a lot of diversity both in a racial context as well as in terms of gender identity or sexuality as well as having net access but because at that time i didn't know what felt like the best starting point for research for that project and how to approach it i shelved it for when i'm more confident in my ability to do these characters and their story justice rather than just relying on known stereotypes that could lead to bad rep not based on other standards or potential response but as a self conscious decision to idk...do the right thing?

that's like even with projects i'm working on now: i have plus sized characters i wish to include but intend to do as much work as possible to make sure that i'm not falling on any of the overly regurgitated fatphobic stereotypes or redundant cliches often seen in different bodies of work, I'm creating fictional cultures which may take some inspiration from existing cultures but i want to ensure that i do so in a way that doesn't use harmful rhetoric or misinformation that's spread about them.

that's like i'm aware that there's no such thing as a perfect body of work there's no guarantee that i wont screw something up but if i can acknowledge my intent (which is proper rep in stories i'm creating so that it's not only genuine for my story but doesn't disrespect or misrepresent folks who very well could end up in my pool of readers) then i can make progress in doing that research that everyone seems so intimidated or offended by because no you'll never really know how much is enough but that's the point of doing as much as you can and getting feedback from relevant parties and not just your fellow writing buddies who're more likely to tell you to "write whatever you want" instead of practicing a bit of mindful self education

that and like in a general i don't think anyone is necessarily obligated to self-censor but i think depending on specific context it may be the better thing to do (because sure for years we heard about sticks and stones but words do hurt and have impact regardless of how little they might seem in a given moment)

[TheLemmaLlama]

Well or you can just ask other people for help. If you don't know if something is appropriate or not, then take the effort to reach out to other people.

Sure, but people aren't obligated to help you, especially if you're not paying them. I do think that in an ideal world, just asking should never be a problem as long as you're not pushy or entitled. But a lot of people are tired of constantly educating others about their identity, so it could be easily seen as 'expecting marginalized people to educate you' or 'being entitled to a marginalized person's labour'.

If you happen to get the all clear from one person, that doesn't necessarily mean you're completely off the hook either. No group is a monolith, and just because one person doesn't see anything problematic, doesn't mean others won't. And asking a second person to check over your work can honestly feel like asking too much.

Sometimes it's not about ego; it's about being afraid to burden others (and not have the money to pay so that it's not a burden).

also going back there's a different kind of standards that marginalized folks are held to as opposed to non marginalized folks where there's an expectation (or it's unsurprising) for cis white dudes to bastardize cultures or misrepresent identities and so on but there's a much higher expectation and trust for the rest because obviously they should care being one who falls within xyz demographic. which isn't to say folks from marginalized identities don't make fuck ups of their own but the bar is set much higher i think hence why there's a stronger sense of this self imposed need for self censorship otherwise you're "failing" these people

I do feel like sometimes if your from Marginalized Group A, you're expected to accurately represent the completely unrelated Marginalized Group B even though there's no reason you'd be any more informed about them than the white cis guy. Maybe it's a 'do unto others' kind of thing? As in, 'if you don't represent our group well, don't complain if someone don't represent your group well'?

if they insist on a certain thing then warn folks ahead of time so they can avoid whatever material or content that they would find distasteful.

Basically, I think this is all we need. People should be allowed to insist. But they should also warn folks ahead of time if they do.

---

(Just for the record, I'm not intimidated or offended by research; I do in fact try to do it myself. But the only reason why I can put aside my fears of 'is it enough' and just publish the darn thing is because I believe it's okay to put out work that may hurt others, as long as you put out a warning so people can avoid it. I can never confirm for certain that it's 'enough'; I have to just be okay with it not being 'enough'.)

[Lensing]

Thanks for sharing how you do it with your work, this is information I´m interested in.

I would like it when people just leave the part out of the discussion what other creators should or shouldn´t do
or if they should censor their work and discussions about other creators

[Iris-Grimoire]

Was this really needed? You could have said "the new popular series on tv." Instead you come off as very bias. Everyone gets scrutinized in movies/TV. It's not a identity thing so don't make it one.

Yes, it is Anything tumblr and twitter currently has their fangs on that's not triple A production might still be deserving of some criticism, but the amount of vitriol when they realize they can @ the creator to throw all their frustrations that it's not made for them, directly at said user, is absolutely a phenomenon.

But see, how much research is enough? How do you know you're not overstepping until you've already posted the work and someone tells you that you were? What qualifies as 'having a bit of a say in the matter'?

That's usually where I'd recommend bringing a sensitivity reader in;; the truth is, you really can't draw a line like you mentioned, and a CW is always better to cover your bases. But you've gotta try, it's what I wanted to emphasize the most. You gotta make some mistakes to become a better writer, so it's better to trip on small pitfalls that come from doing research but naturally get missed, than write something that causes actual harm because no attempt was made.

On bringing up the cis white guy thing, yeah, it's what @VibrantFox said. A rich straight dude with friends in the industry can say "yeah I wanna make a story where a gay guy suffers then dies" can get paid and compliments for it(and get a couple posts criticizing the decision that never reach them), while a minority creator can do tons of research and do something really thoughtful, but use "queer" in an audience that would rather adopt another general term, and get grilled and harassed off of social media for it. One actually did something really boneheaded and probably had tons of other problems in the work, the other did a genuine misread and mistake, but the latter catches far more flak for it because they're acessible.

I guess I don't have any personal examples other than, "oh I switched out species because this fantastical creature comes from a marginalized group and they're frequently misrepresented" because they get left at the cutting room floor wayyyy early and I move on to other stories.
Basically this scene but it all happens in my mind and I've forgotten the concept by next week

[BoomerZ]

If you don't thing a "rich straight dude" can't be cancelled for writing the wrong story or saying the wrong thing from the outrage group on twitter and social media, you live in a fantasy world.

[VibrantFox]

it's far less to do with being socially ostracized and far more that the level of consequence or impact it has on the respective individual.

the accessible marginalized individual in most cases gets pushed off a platform (i've watched this happen via mass false reports getting accounts deleted or permanently banned) or put into physical danger (i.e. doxxing which a very large number of marginalized folks can vouch for and enough research thru reputable sources can show these statistics) meanwhile the "rich white guy" can easily shut things down or is for the most part untouchable coz negative critique (or "cancellation") doesn't really extend past social media platforms. Those guys aren't losing their jobs or having their well-being compromised and very rarely do those guys show remorse and if anything tend to double down on their stances

i get you've got an angle but facts show otherwise, so the "fantasy world" seems to be one of your own making

also since i imagine you're the kind of person who wants proof:

• the validate visual novel game
• (pretty easy to google but check your sources) stats on twitch streamers and what parties are getting doxxed and swatted
• there was an instance where someone who worked on infinity train happened to draw a poc character from the show much lighter than they do in any other official art and it was to be featured at gallery nucleus. fans of the show and character point this out and no one really did much of anything save for giving out half-assed apologies and the creator of the show blocked black creators specifically in regards to the criticism given he defended the artist (it's possible these folks were listed in a block chain but the point stands that folks were barred from debating)
• nessa pokemon fanart and skintone debates
• cookie run fanart and skintone/"dough color" debates

i can probably add more but that's the most that come to mind

specifically with regards to minorities and marginalized folks taking more flack than their white counterparts you can even look into the youtube debate that rose up after cory, markiplier and jack (as well as a number of other youtube creators) talked about some things they observed with regards to visibility of their videos and channel overall versus how the youtube staff responded

and i wanna be clear this isn't me attempting to make some kind of targeted attack but when voices of people are shut out or silenced it becomes incredibly painful when people deny that it's happened or is happening but please tell us that we're making up false realities

[also i'm very sorry to op in the way this is likely derailing but i just wanted to quickly give a rebuttal and if requested will quickly move to delete this]

[BoomerZ]

Just stop. I don't deny it's happening. I deny its a marginalized person problem. If a rich white person makes the "wrong" opinion, they can lose their career just as easy as a non-white person. You tube is known for banning people for their opinion and that is their livelihood. The outrage crowd knows no skin color. They destroy anyone they don't like. And by saying people should use sensitivity readers and do research on stuff to keep them from being attacked makes you fall right into their hands. That is censorship. It's a threat to say "speak right or we will destroy you." Everyone needs to tell people that get outraged at stories to go fuck themselves and not read it. If you have a story to tell, write it. Those that say it's problematic, ignore them. If you really are writing a bad story, the audience won't be there, that will be your proof. We need to start acting like adults and not taking everything as an attack.

Finally people like you need to understand the "rich white guy" doesn't get away with as much as you think. But it's very easy to demonize them as the "other" to blame problems on. And very few writers are rich anyway, and almost no comic artists are. The outrage to skin color of a fan artwork isn't coming from "white" people, 99% of the time it's from minorities. The asian writer that wrote a story about slavery in a fantasy world was drive to cancel her book by non-whites complaining she couldn't write about it because its a black issue. This is just making everyone miserable. No good is coming from this but censorship.

[VibrantFox]

to be fair i do agree with the point that folks can write what they want and that reader response can serve as an answer but i wont argue further as there's clearly no point

[Freemints30]

I wanna know who are those youtubers with the "wrong opinions" who got banned you speak of

I mostly agree in terms of fictional content. But like if your whole video is trying to educate and you are spreading misinformation the rules are "dont spread misinformation" then.. that's not censorship. If I had rules on not pissing on my floor. And you decided to piss for """freedom"". Me kicking you out is not censorship or infringing on your rights. You can still piss else where.

But like the usual white guy types I've seen scream censorship of thier opinions are usual still quite active and talkaive. Maybe even gain a following on from thier "I just got canceled donate to my patreon"

While folks like the fall's lady, a trans woman, lost everything due to a fictional book.

[DiegoPalacios]

Personally, i filter my content based on the age rating of the story i'm making and i'm pretty upfront about it so the right audiences go to the right places.

So.....i'm willing to write adult content that interests me to make, but i wouldn't allow my nephews or other kids to watch it and would not publish it in a site oriented to children.

Now......about trigger warnings.....personally i prefer to do a more general warning about the kind of content to expect in the beginning of the story that avoids reaching spoilers. (ex: this story contains violence, abuse, sex scenes, etc...) So people can be informed if they want to deal with stuff that may be heavy for them without undermining the reader experience for people who are willing to deal with that kind of story.

So....in few words.....i give the right warnings and put the content in the right places.

[TAMAnnoying]

@Freemints30 @BoomerZ

"The thread is about how YOU censor yourself"

You guys can make a new thread on cancel culture. If you wanna continue

[BoomerZ]

I believe I said to let people pound sand on telling you what you can and can't say/do. That is on topic as you self censor if you believe doing so will keep those people from attacking you. So before you put your gif up telling us what to do, please read what we wrote.

I mostly agree in terms of fictional content. But like if your whole video is trying to educate and you are spreading misinformation the rules are "dont spread misinformation" then.. that's not censorship.

That's another way of saying you don't believe in free speech. Not going to get into it with you as you have bought into the "misinformation" bullshit as an excuse to ban people. But just know that one day this can and will be used against you and you don't want to live in that world.

[Freemints30]

Wow. Okay dude.

Okay that's not free speak sorry but free speech is like you can say something and not get thrown in prison for it.

Not you can say something and not experience social consequences. Like people thinking your gross or not worth being around. If youtube has a rule that says dont promote false covid facts or inciting racial hatred. That's thier private rule. They just aren't throwing you to the gullages they have every right to boot you off as a private company. Same with tapas.

Unless I can assume you belive in alot of bs facts from youtubers. Which I'll say you do you.

I know it will on day happen simply cus I like gross slimy fictional shit. And seeing what happened with certain queer friendly content creators (I'm sure some here already know a few names especially this year). Might as well advertise my fiction to people who love the sadz. But hey I ain't gonna be advertising myself a crappy teacher and teach misinform like Robert here early

[BoomerZ]

Okay that's not free speak sorry but free speech is like you can say something and not get thrown in prison for it.

When the government asks the hosting private company to ban people (which they did), that is no longer a private company but an arm of the government. You really need to look into what the government told (ask is the polite way of saying it, but the government doesn't ask. they tell.) companies like youtube, google, and the like to do. Then get back to me about private companies...

[thepenmonster]

Are you implying YouTube University isn't a good education?

Next you'll be claiming Prager U isn't a real university!

[Freemints30]

Okay.

YouTube isnt an arm of government man. Stop huffing the fumes.

It ain't that deep. Host your crazy weed facts on your private site. Its okay

[NellieVP318]

I don't know what any of this stuff has to do with self-censorship. But I think on a private corporation and government level is a completely different issue to what an individual does with censorship.

If all this is stuff is affecting how people self-censor themselves, maybe people should consider content warnings on their content which I don't think there aren't any harm with that.

[NickRowler]

Are you implying YouTube University isn't a good education?

You would be shocked by the number of people who use random YT videos as a source of legit information. Heck every Lion King vs Kimba article and even professional journals reference some random video which places similar scene side by side yet does not really disclose the context of the scenes. It ended up misinforming a lot of people and creating this weird conspiracy theory.