Somethings gotta give

[VibrantFox]

I don't know what category to put this in as before it likely would've landed in meta and I guess now it would land in feedback but for once I'm going to gripe about the rules.

Now bear in mind I've been here a long while, know that rules are rules and am well aware of the fact that rules will be enforced to whatever extent necessary here but when it comes to certain things I cannot help but feel like there's certain rules that are maybe to strict/strictly enforced or could at the least bear with some compromise

The big one is "Do not solicit sales on the forums" namely with how it's imposed on artists because see I cannot help but find a huge irony in the fact that less than a day old accounts can come on here and ask for free work but we just accept that as normal meanwhile if an artist happens to put out that they're available for paid work that's a big no no.... It's just odd to me. To add to this as far as I can tell there isn't really any workaround. I mean I've seen "artist looking for writer [paid]" posts but at the same time I can never tell if it's an instance of an artist looking for paid work or that they're going to pay the writer. Plus there's been at least a couple instances where commission megathreads were made for artist who all we're open for paid work got shut down so it feels really really unbalanced in that regard.

There's also the stifling of certain discussions. Now I for one usually don't have complaints in this area but here and there there's moments where what seems like a totally fine discussions being shut down sometimes less because of the rules and more due to user flagging but it's still weird. This happens most when it comes to certain discussions about the romance genre or it's cousins and in some cases it really seems less about what's being said and more that someone just doesn't like the op's opinion; which fair I guess but at the same time you could just mute the thread and avoid interaction with whomever the op is. And obviously there are more egregious threads where the original post seems purposefully inflammatory or is just someone ranting off about whatever but if it's someone making a general critique not of a single individuals work but a genre as a whole it seems very very iffy when those get shut down because they're "not playing nice" or whatever.

I'll say again I've been a long time member of the community and I usually have little to no complaints but these two things continue to rub me the wrong way especially as more time passes. If it's another "our hands are tied/there's nothing we can do/these are the rules you either comply or go elsewhere" then fine but I really hope that at some point or another a solution that benefits both the company AND the user base can be found. Plus I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one whose raised the kinds of complaints (it's simply that my memory isn't serving me as well as it usually does today) but as the title says something has really got to give at least a little...

[edit: also if someone wishes to move this to it's "correct" category then feel free I mostly just wanted to get this off my chest]

[rajillustration]

I think with soliciting sales it's a matter of "did you get caught before a mod shut it down" rather than "this is OK while this other same instance is not." Like I think the intention of the rule was to get rid of all sales, free or not free--which makes sense, this forum isn't for that and would quickly get spammed with artists looking for people to buy their merch. But, we tend to see free art as a "collab" of sorts so it gets a pass--when nah--that's just someone taking advantage of a young artist. There shouldn't be anyone asking for an artist to work for free...ever. Same with asking a writer to work for free--what?

And like as far as the collabs go, the collab tag should just be done away with, because it sets this expectation that you don't need to know anything about the people you are collabing with, which isn't really how collaborations work.

[EncryptedWriting]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but I argue that the collab section doesn't need need be abolished entirely. I truthfully think that there are too many people going into collaboration thinking "Oh I can post the least amount of information with no experience and no completed stories and will TOTALLY get artists to help me."

Like, no.

I think the collaboration tab can be useful for both artists and writers if it is used properly and if rules are actually read.

[Mallory]

I think the idea of collabs is legit, but I think that maybe the compromise can be that any thread that files itself under the "collab" tag should be formatted correctly (this format should include the original poster's portfolio as well as a formatted pitch for what they want to collab on) - or be flagged and deleted as spam (because really... it is).

I would kinda hate for this place to allow artists to advertise though... Every place I've ever seen that allows that just immediately gets overrun with the same 10 people spamming their portfolios once a day, drowning out all discussion. Well, maybe this place would be a little different, since we can mute categories, and if work-for-hire is its own category then it can easily be muted.

[Tanako]

"artist looking for writer [paid]" posts but at the same time I can never tell if it's an instance of an artist looking for paid work or that they're going to pay the writer.

This is just a way to let the writer know that they will be paid for their assistance and yes, a collaboration can still be paid. this format was created so people don't waist their time clicking on something that dosent offer any compensation for their work.
I can also see how it can be confused, or contradictory due to the fact that if it's a collab so why pay the writer or artist?. well as I mentioned earlier, in the past, there was a point in time where writers were putting little information in their posts, no work to show on their end and asking for free work with an enamors amount of work load for the artist and unrealistic expectations and deadlines. if someone is going to take something like that, it only fair its paid. and the reason why writers or artist add paid in the title section is so the post looks more appealing and someone might want to take the offer.

At least this is my intake on the subject matter unless someone else has a better explanation.

[SleepingPoppy]

this forum isn't for that and would quickly get spammed with artists looking for people to buy their merch

Yeah, even if it was specific to work for hire, I feel like we're majority artists here, and we'd be flooded with self advertisements. If it were easily contained, it'd be nice if there was a place for artists to post their commission rates and a little art, but I just can't see being a good fit.... Not to say I'd be against it if the forum changed the rules to allow it.

that's just someone taking advantage of a young artist.

As much as I feel like finding collabs this way is a waste, if a young artist and a young write find each other and want to partner up, it's nice to have a place for that. It's just that that's 99% of the time not what's going on (and even on the rare case it is, it falls apart, because these are young people who don't know what they're doing, lol). There are people on this forum that have teamed up for short collaborations successfully out of a spirit of community, too, though, and I don't want to take that away from them?

I don't think we have the man power for it, but I wish the collaboration threads had to be manually okayed to go live. So they were forced to actually provide a reasonable amount of information before the rest of us have to deal with it. Or maybe make it something that doesn't "appear" until you reach a certain level of community involvement, like the lounge used to be? But less strict. That probably isn't reasonable, but I am very sick of the wanna-be writers.

[Kaydreamer]

I don't like the inequity of it, either. As artists, people are allowed to come in here and ask us to work for free, or for poverty wages... yet we're not allowed a space to advertise our rates, availability, and standard of work? Given that categories can be muted, preventing 'artist for hire' spam from overrunning the forums, I don't see why we couldn't be given a category for it.

I also think there should be an 'engagement' threshold a user has to pass before being able to post in the 'collab' category. And that should also apply to a hypothetical 'Artist For Hire' category as well.

[Mallory]

I also think there should be an 'engagement' threshold a user has to pass before being able to post in the 'collab' category. And that should also apply to a hypothetical 'Artist For Hire' category as well.

Oh, I like this. One of the best free marketplaces I've ever seen was on a forum that dictated a certain amount of engagement from the poster before they were allowed to even see the marketplace categories.

[rajillustration]

Oh I'm not saying that collabs are bad, I just don't think the collab tag is working like at all. I've long since muted the thing, and I can't be alone in that.

I think that if people want to make collabs, they should actually interact with the forums and become friends with people on the forums, and then they can just ask them directly. Just like real life. There's no collab section in real life, it's just friends talking together.

If the collab tag exists--people don't interact. They just post and bounce.

[doublemelon]

I suggest there could be a weekly masterpost of "Artist advertisement" where artists can post their rates and availability, not on the old thread where people bumps, for reasons being:

1. Updated list of people who are available right now / this week.
2. Updated pricing.
3. Less spammy, while at the same time giving space for artists and clients to find each other.
4. Same people would repost their own rates on a weekly basis, but thats fine as many same people are already spamming their own comic everywhere here anyway.
5. New people will find the thread and post there too, instead of trying to find old posts or bombard the forum with their own threads.

[VibrantFox]

this honestly sounds like a great solution and would hopefully prevent any clutter in the tags

[VibrantFox]

update: following doublemelon's suggestion i've made a masterpost thread

Per a suggestion given in another thread I made I'm hoping to host these every week or every other week. The premise is pretty simple: If you are an artist available for any kind of commission or collab work post here. Keeping in line with collab category rules but also out of courtesy I ask that folks give a quick little intro as to who they are and the kind of work they're seeking (illustrations, covers, thumbnails, banners, comic pages, etc) and samples or links to their work and their rate…

not sure if i ought to swap the category from collabs to promotions but it's up

[jensrichard77]

I found this idea informative and useful for the community. Also, this is a great way to change the culture of all the rookie writers out there to understand that art cost.

[tapiyokastudios]

I'm not part of the Tapas company, nor am I the most business oriented person. But, if it were my company, and I made the rule of not soliciting sales on the forums there is a clear reason I would do that. It is not the prettiest reason, but business is business. The real reason isn't necessarily spam, or low-quality posts (if anything, they don't give two craps about the low-quality posts). They do not allow sales as a means to control artists' independence. They WANT the best artists to stick with Tapas as their publisher. They would not want the promising growing artists to start building their own independence through freelance sales. And it is not necessarily about whether you could survive off freelance, it is more so about consistent time commitments for releasing comics.

I've mentioned it before in a past post that, there will always be low-quality 'collaboration' posts because young, inexperienced, and impatient people are blinded by strong dreams, not realising that they would be better off actually mastering their craft as an individual first. My suggestion for this is that people start creating specifically "Looking for mentor", or "Looking for mentee" kind of posts more often. They can even have a group thing going on. This of course could only be possible with very generous people that are willing to take time off to teach the misguided. I must also point out that there are two types of teachers. One is the type that is willing teach anyone and everyone, the other will only choose one or a select few similar to the competitiveness of becoming a mangaka assistant. Regardless, I think this would be a healthier approach rather than destructive collaboration.

[jensrichard77]

My suggestion for this is that people start creating specifically "Looking for mentor", or "Looking for mentee" kind of posts more often.

This is something that really could help the bad "give me all for nothing" culture that we have.
Instead of the many many promo threads that no one watches and the sub4sub that doesn't work and the "I need more subs", if we could change that culture into "seeking mentors" WOW
That would be a whole new life around here.

So? How do we do that? Where do we start? Who are willing to offer themselves as mentors and what would it mean to be one?
I would like to be one but I might need to know more about what would be expected of me.
Maybe starting a thread where we can collect mentors and discuss what that would be like to be? would you join me @tapiyokastudios

[VibrantFox]

To be fair there was something like this that existed ages ago. Less in a mentor/mentee kind of way but still offering advice to beginners or those looking to gain more knowledge or experience which was these threads

NITTY GRITTY TIPS Hi Y'all, welcome to Nitty Gritty Tips! This is the master-thread for all of Nitty Gritty Tips. A series of discussions where we get together as a community to share helpful advice, tips and tricks, around around a various topics. This thread is also where people can come to suggest new topics for the series and share forum discussions that can be considered honorary NGT's (any thread where we've all gotten together to share advice) NGT will be back soon with new topics,…

[jensrichard77]

Lots of great stuff collected.
But it is a lot of information to run over by a new young dreamer.
I wished that every time they show up and wish for glory and a great free artist the standard answer was: “Please seek a mentor to help you”

I’m trying to come up with a strategy for this to happen. Maybe I just should jump out and do it and see if others will follow

[tapiyokastudios]

Freakscomics recruiting (unpaid)

Freakscomics recruiting (unpaid)

Sounds like a very professional setup whit no pay and no reference for previous work?Where will this be published?Will there be any rev-share?

SHOW US, CAUSE TALK IS CHEAP

Freakscomics recruiting (unpaid)

You even have me being curious about joining the team. I will catch you on discord.

After my comment, you became quite flaccid. Then there is your other post about wanting to help people's dialogues for the sake of your own experience and self-claiming "planning to go pro". What makes you think I would like to collaborate with you with this kind of mentality? I'm sorry, but I think the toxicity has manifested within you, and your patience has dwindled. Can you not see the embarrassment upon yourself when you specifically asked for me? I'd like to keep my integrity and image intact than to associate with you, thank you.

In my "professional" opinion, you do not currently have what it takes to be a leader, boss, teacher, mentor, or anything among those lines. You should work on yourself a bit more. You mentioned what is expected from a mentor. They are expected to give, not take. This is my only response for you. I will not reply to you any further to avoid being a public nuisance.

-Leon

[jensrichard77]

Hahaha. Got me good there.
And you are perfectly right!

I’m not ready. There is too much of my own doing I need to get in order.

Thank you for the slap. I needed that.

[VibrantFox]

well given whatever that situation was it's one of the reason's i can't really see mentorship as a solution as it'll boil down to havng the right kind of people serving as mentors and while anyone could volunteer the process of screening and all other things leads to a lot of room for error or complications.

referencing this specifically:

But it is a lot of information to run over by a new young dreamer.

it may be a lot of info but something that's been explained as necessary is taking the time to read/listen, learn and gain understanding. For those struggling you can absolutely try to break it down but I don't see it as that tremendous an obstacle (regardless of age or skill level). If language barriers are an issue there's always the option to translate but folks can definitely take the time to read if they care enough.

That like with the collab category, guidelines have been posted on how to make proper pitches and there's those who follow them and those who don't. It's essentially the same context in that you either take the time to read and reflect a little (and ideally it would be an unbiased thread) or you just do whatever

I can respect the desire to personally assist someone but it's not a simple task to take on