Speaking about anti-male bias...yay or nay?

[DokiDokiTsuna]

This could be a good one, or a very bad one...anyway, if nothing else, let it be known that I approach this topic in good faith. The fact that I have to say that, though, is part of the problem...

So lately I've noticed a strong bias against the male characters in a few of the shows I watch, especially when it comes to villains and the currently-popular 'redemption arc'.

Long story short, the male villains rarely get that courtesy. And in these shows in particular, female villains almost ALWAYS get it. It's actually kind of annoying, because at some point you can't invest in a female antagonist's antagonism any more...you already know it's going to be rejected by the story's end. They're no longer really a villain, just a protagonist-in-training and future angst victim. =[

On the flipside, the male villains end up under-explored...which is doubly unfortunate, because they're usually the leaders, while the female villains that soak up all the screentime are the pawns (you really can't make this sh*t up...).
The obvious reasoning is that it's harder to throw pity parties for someone in a position of power, so the female villains are often subservient characters...which sucks for a whole host of other reasons. But my point is, we spend the LEAST amount of time learning about the people who actually incite and drive the conflict in the story.

After the assassin girl is finished crying about how all the many crimes she's committed make her so sad, the heroes kill her boss and that's it. If we're lucky, we might get a death-bed one-liner about his motivations, but the processes that led to him being in a position of power are usually ignored in favor of 'bad man dead, problem solved'...which again, sucks for a whole host of reasons. Lots of toxic writing strategies here...

It's actually a really interesting issue to think about, at least for me...like, even though the male characters are the ones getting sidelined and disrespected, if you look closely, the motivations for those choices are still misogynistic (for example, not knowing any other way to make female characters look strong and self-actualized besides just trashing all the males). Like I said, you can't make this sh*t up. ^^;

But that's a nuance that's often overlooked...and thus, these conversations usually just turn out to be bait for actual misogynists. =/
And so, although I engage in critique fairly often, it's a subject I try to avoid for the most part. Critique in general is often full of sexist dogwhistles; ever since I started taking an interest in critique videos on YT my feed has become a minefield of nightmare takes...so I'm used to having to word things carefully to make clear what I'm saying and NOT saying.

But is that likely to work for a subject like this? Or is keeping my mouth shut entirely the better option...?

[DotCalmComic]

Let me introduce you to

Lindsay Ellis

She has interesting things to say on all of this.

[IndigoShirtProd]

Can you give examples of media that does this in your opinion?

[FafasMcMelt]

On a side note, which I think is somewhat related, media seldom presents the status quo in a good light, hell, even justified. I get why people would want to vilify something they mean to destroy, but it really bothers me that it often feels like the world is in complete stasis until the heroes arrive. Like, the common folk just live in these conditions and do nothing of it?
Established institutions are easily dismantled by the heroes with little to no consequences, which always makes me wonder how did they become established in the first place. Prejudices and the preconcieved notions of the general public are completely arbitrary and seldom even have an explanation, I mean, these kinds of stuff don't have to be right, but they do need a reason.
Again, I get why people do that. But when whatever it is that poses as the antagonist in a story is completely iredeemable and shallow, I find it very hard to be invested in the conflict.

[Lunar-Turtle]

I once promoted my comic to some person. I got a reply that the person only reads stories with female characters.

Geez, I guess I should be ashamed for having a comic with two brothers as main characters, because men are not apparently humans or something, lol.

I also hope you all understand I mean that the second part a joke. But yeah, I also noticed men are not popular in this era.

[FafasMcMelt]

At the end of the day, your hero is only as good as the challenges they overcome. So when people create poorly written villains, with shallow motives and goals, whether to make their hero look good and complex in contrast, or just for sheer incompetence to develop a beliavable idea which they disagree with, the whole story suffers. And the hero (and the ideas they represent) suffers the most because of it.

[darthmongoose]

I'm personally struggling to think of examples of female villains who were better developed than male ones. Is this a very recent trend?

In my experience, female villains, as well as just generally being fewer in number overall, tend to have pettier motives, usually revolving around having been "scorned" by a man they were interested in, having been rendered unable to have babies and therefore deciding to turn evil (that one's always a yikes), or being jealous of another woman's youth, beauty or having the attention of a man who isn't interested in them. They sometimes get a redemption arc, but when they do it's often problematic and pushes this narrative where a woman who is ambitious or isn't nurturing will turn bad, and getting her back in touch with her feminine, nurturing role of looking after people's emotions will turn her good again; an arc you'll almost never see in a male character, where the path to redemption is usually something like "remember your manly duty to protect" which will lead the villain to stoically sacrifice himself.

[MK_Wizard]

I really hate being anti any person or character and male is not the exception. Being mean, critical and showing up males doesn't chalk one up for women. I am all for fixing problematic male characters, but turning them into inept baffoons doesn't level the playing field. It's mocking them. I prefer the Sudio Chibli film approach to writing men especially if they are supposed to be a foil to the women. They are supportive, reliable and kind without sacrificing their ability to be responsible, brave and in tuned with their masculine side.

Since we're on that subject, I never got the whole idea of women having a "turn" at doing the worst things men have done in the past because it actually chalks one down for feminism big time. Number one, it reinforces the negative and false idea that if we empower women or make them equal to men, they abuse that power and behave out of control. Number two, feminism includes men by encouraging them to stop the negative behaviour and not take up toxic masculine behaviours that hurt women, other men and themselves.

[crowstories]

I think this might be a matter of perception. I've also seen a lot of commentary on how with the rise of BL, readers (in this case mostly straight women) basically don't want to read about women, or will apparently talk shit about a female love interest in non-BL romance stories. Not saying that this is accurate as I haven't seen it myself -- just that the commentary (like a lot of it) is out there.

[arxianfall]

It's part of a much larger problem.

Some call it an over-correction to old media

Others, over-representation.

Lately (as in 2015) writers started really messing with male characters, going so far as denigrating them in a non parody or satire or outright doing a genderbend. The few male characters left are given the short end of the stick regardless of their original characterization.

Back to the villain thing, I feel like Wandavision is the latest show guilty of this. By the end she doesn't even get a slap on the wrist and the other characters somehow look at her as a broken hero. That felt very tone deaf to me.

Very much of american and western media is going for the things you notice and that's why indie, manga and anime are growing fast. As someone from Eastern Europe I can barely watch anything since it's all so ideologically and politically charged that it's suffocating any good points the show might have.

I can only assume two causes:
Storytellers who grew up in closed off bubbles.
Or a stable paycheck from someone who looks at graphs about who yells the loudest on Twatter.

[arxianfall]

NPCs and questgivers.

[Inspector_Spinda]

i honestly don't know. i think it may be a problem in some works by some authors, but not a widespread probably as I can think of a lot of friendly male villains and redeemed one (zuko for a start). but if we're talking about american cartoons... most of them with actually evil villains nowadays star an all female or mostly female cast so the bias may just come from that. i also think it might be a problem is some anime, but there are enough counter examples for me to not think it's a wide spread issue.

[FafasMcMelt]

the last airbender is 16 years old at this point, it isn't current

[Inspector_Spinda]

gru, garmadon, joker, ice king, discord, the Grinch, varian

[SleepingPoppy]

It's timeless, so it gets a pass

Though more seriously, I think for many of us, Zuko is kind of the gold standard for a good redemption arc, so it makes sense that would come to mind for some people regardless of age.

[FafasMcMelt]

it doesn't get a pass, we're discussing a recent trend

[SleepingPoppy]

The "it gets a pass" was a joke, which is why there was a winky face and then I followed it up with a more serious response, which was simply a defense of it being relevant as far as a reference point. Not evidence of the trend one way or the other. My intention was mostly being silly, though. =P

[Crusoe]

I think this idea that you have on male antagonist bias is complicated by the fact that there are less and less shows where there's a binary like traditional evil versus traditional good. This does not mean that all male antagonists are redeemed in the end, but villains or antagonists in general do tend to have more complex, realistic and understandable motivations for what they do. (From the developments I recognize in a lot of genres at least.)

I do agree with @arxianfall to a degree that it may also be due to some over-correction in media representation. There's a lot of pressure to start portraying marginalized groups more realistically and right or receive backlash, which means that the white male character gets the short end of the stick in a lot of cases.

Lastly, I don't know what shows you are referring to specifically, but it's a good thing to keep audience demographic in mind. For a show with a female target audience, it makes sense to redeem the female characters and keep the main big baddie a male.

[thedude3445]

Nay. She-Ra, Avatar, Star Wars... male villains can get redemption arcs just the same.

[NickRowler]

So lately I've noticed a strong bias against the male characters in a few of the shows I watch, especially when it comes to villains and the currently-popular 'redemption arc'.

Long story short, the male villains rarely get that courtesy. And in these shows in particular, female villains almost ALWAYS get it.

I don't really see this as being anti-male. I see this more as writers being afraid to make female villains "bad". Sometimes I feel like female villains are just written as "girl bosses", which can be annoying.