Speaking about anti-male bias...yay or nay?

DokiDokiTsuna 2021-03-18 15:08:15 UTC #42

I've been trying to illustrate how this specific style of writing is actually harmful to characters of both genders...mostly since people have been saying things along the lines of "isn't this better for girls tho". So no, that is not an example of "anti-male" bias, just a precipitating factor.

That's actually...not true? I think you're conflating the idea of a literal trend with that of a popular trend.

Like, to give a scientific example: how many people in the world have schizophrenia? Maybe 2-ish percent: not a popular trend. But if your grandfather has it, and your father has it, you are also likely to have it, which is in itself a trend. A trend within a small sample group, but still a trend (which is probably what led to people figuring out that it was hereditary).

But if you really want another example (that you've probably never heard of, but just to show that I'm not pulling this stuff outta my ass) Symphogear was also a big inspiration for this topic.

I love the show, really I do, but its fanservicey nature does get out of hand occasionally. I think every female villain in the show was AT LEAST shown in a sympathetic light (half the cast is made up of redeemed villain girls, even ^^; ) but the one time they had a male villain as the season's 'final boss', they just put him down like a rabid dog without even so much as ONE flashback from his perspective. I mean, Adam was a freak, but his backstory would probably have been way more plot-relevant than the fluff we got from his female-presenting henchies...

To give another example, the dichotomy between Dr. Nastassja and Dr. Ver.: both were evil scientists, both caused a lot of harm to the world and to the main cast, but only one was presented as a loving mother who was just doing what was best for (read: abusing) her daughters, rather than a delusional psycho.

Not that I would've wanted Ver to be redeemed (I reeeeeally don't like him)...what I would have wanted was for Nastassja to be handled with the same emotional distance...like yeah, she can be useful, she can even have good intentions, but her misdeeds shouldn't be brushed under the rug and justified just because she happens to be female.

IndigoShirtProd 2021-03-18 15:33:14 UTC #43

I don't know if the prevalence rates of a mental illness is conducive to the prevalence rates of anti-male bias in modern media. Can you even call it a trend in it of itself if you, the original poster, only had one example? I asked for examples because in my media diet, I hadn't seen any. It's not as though I don't think it's possible for actual anti-male bias to show up more and more in future shows and movies, but it's not really a clear trend at the moment.

Why didn't you just say this earlier? And two pieces of media does not make a trend, popular or not.

And at least for the Symphogear example, it sounds less "anti-male" and more "patronizing the female villain," at least to me. There's still this air in media where women are infantilized to the point where they're not allowed to be fully evil or perceived as fully evil, because that would go against the idea that women are mothers and nurturers, with only good intentions but they're just being led astray.

migxmeg 2021-03-18 15:42:58 UTC #44

I didn't see the word "trend" in Doki's original post - it was just an observation about a few shows right?

Though I'll say I disagree about RWBY, that could be a whole debate . Personally I don't mind at all when individual works are unbalanced in one direction or the other as long as it isn't part of a trend.

DokiDokiTsuna 2021-03-18 15:49:18 UTC #45

... Obviously they're not related ideas, I was just trying to illustrate the concept. =/ I could have said a similar thing with, like, fruit fly genetics, but of the two fields where I have knowledge people generally understand my psychology analogies better.

Those aren't the only two examples I have ever seen, and I'm not going to try to recall the character dynamics of every poorly-written show I've ever watched just to satisfy your curiosity.

Like @migxmeg said, I was never trying to make a sweeping generalization about all of media, I was just pointing out something that I noticed happening in, and I quote, "a FEW of the shows I watch".
The fact that you can't relate doesn't mean my observations are invalid, or that I have to prove them to you. And honestly, the fact that at least a few other people in this thread CAN relate speaks for itself.

But_a_Jape 2021-03-18 16:07:40 UTC #46

To add onto the semantic debate of the word "trend" - if you're trying to identify a trend in a specific subgroup, that subgroup needs to be identified itself. For your schizophrenia example, the subgroup is identified as a specific family - you can look into that family's history and isolate why they have a higher prevalence of a certain quality than the general population. With your two examples given (RWBY and Symphogear) I'm not clear on what subgroup they have in common is. The best I can think of is "anime-style action series," but again, these are two relatively low-key properties within that group, so I would hardly consider them strong examples of a prevalent trend.

Of course, you don't need to list these examples, but it would be useful to contribute to actual discussion. Speaking for myself, I actually do find this subject interesting and if more examples can be provided for my personal evaluation, I would find that useful for exploring the topic with further discourse. But there's only so much to discuss if one party says "I actually am not clear on how large an issue this is, can you provide some examples?" and the other party responds, "I don't need to do that."

I ask this fully with good faith, but what sort of discussion were you looking for when you created this topic? I don't see anyone suggesting your observations are invalid or based on nothing, they're just asking for further elaboration on your part. And honestly, "other people agree with me" is not, in itself, supporting evidence for your claim, especially when those others haven't provided substantial examples either. There was one other example I saw given (WandaVision) but again, it was only one data point and I have already given my thoughts on how it actually pertained to this topic.

djourner 2021-03-18 16:32:40 UTC #47

Ultimately my opnion on this subject might be biased itself because i'm a guy.
But to people who want some examples of anti-male bias with which to analyze.

The lastest movies i could think of
Mulan (the 2020 version) and Wonder Woman 1984 (what a mess this movie is)

Anime might be too searing in this topic as it is know for being pandering for male audiences... A lot of shounen use villainess only on ocasion, most often they fall into the subservient category mentioned by op, and they often don't get punched square in the face like the guys do (thought it has happened)
What could be discussed is the overall presence of 'female powers'. powers that are generally less combat oriented being pushed on female characters for the sake of keeping them out of the fight. And how often these powers involve some for of manipulation or transformation.
Also maybe touch on how the guys get punched and launched, and break every bone in their bodies while fighting... But the girls get minor bruises and scratches before they fall down unconscious.

Funnily enough as i thought about this, i realized the efforts a lot anime are putting in pushing this away... Like boku no hero... Sure some of the girls powers are not as bombastic, but there are scenes that show them shining more than the guys who do have that.
However I still think the anti-male bias exists, is there... Like look at how the cast of villains has 1 woman, and her power is... Shapeshifting and manipulating people emotionally.

We could also look at stuff like... the entire horror Genre and how women have more tropes and roles there. And wether thats a good or bad thing.

A final point i'd like to make... Maybe the problem is not in the writer but the audience.
In the above examples... Mulan and Wonder Woman 1984 are 'girl power' movies, they serve to emphasize the woman against the male characters, and can often feel pandering towards women (just like guy power fantasies pander towards guys)
A lot of popular anime a made with a male audience in mind, that is simply how it is... And in general terms (not me) boys want to see girls being sexy and submissive so it makes sense for shounen and other shows to paint women like that... Because their primary audience will agree with them regardless of the overall opnion. Even if is a disgusting way to pertray women;
And the horror genre tends to be tied into eroticism , hence why a lot of the times there is a diference in gender between the protagonists and the thing chasing them, however this is the one i can talk about the least as i dislike horror.

So yeah... Maybe it's not on the writer, but on the readers... The writer write what he thinks people might want to read,

TAMAnnoying 2021-03-18 16:50:55 UTC #48

Honestly willing to have a thread about just roasting how awful those movies are - with wonderwomens idea that sexually assaulting men is ok- and with Mulan where we have a Garbage redemption arc for a character that had absolutely nothing going for her (along with the 20 thousand other morality issues with Those movies)

As a women the problem I have with a lot of “female empowerment” movies is that they 100% do not practice what they preach with disney catering to a government that things is perfectly ok to force abortion on minorities.

I don’t care how “strong” your women characters are if your writing is completely fuckinh trash teir and you treat women like shit outside of the public eye.

But_a_Jape 2021-03-18 17:05:34 UTC #49

Hey, I'm a guy too if that adds any necessary context to my posts.

I haven't seen Mulan but I have seen WW84 and I haven't really gotten a sense of "anti-male" sentiment from it. In fact, the villain dynamic in the movie is the opposite of what this topic asserts: Cheetah is a villain until the end and needs to be "killed" by Wonder Woman (she survives, but Diana was definitely going for the kill there) while Maxwell Lord is swayed by the love for his son and renounces his power. Steve Trevor is a prominent male character who is consistently portrayed as a good guy (bodily autonomy issues aside) and Lord's villainy is never really shown to be driven by his masculinity (in fact, his fatherhood is his redeeming quality).

The closest thing I can see people interpreting as "anti-male" is the guy who harasses Barbara, but that's far more "anti-sexual harassment" from my perspective. Also, Barbara beating up that guy later is portrayed as her "turn to villainy" moment.

Here's my issue with using these kinds of movies as some sort of measure for "societal trends": these movies are kind of universally considered to be bad. No one's holding these films up as aspirational stories because they're only ever brought up in conversation as punchlines. One of the first things people bring up about WW84 is "Didn't Diana technically rape that guy?" and about Mulan is "I hate Disney remakes" or something about the Chinese government.

It's the same issue with the 2016 Ghostbusters - the only time I ever hear about this film is people complaining about it being part of an anti-male/girl power trend, when ultimately, it's a mediocre film that would otherwise be forgotten like most mediocre films if not for the people who have such disproportionate hate for it.

The way I see it, a lot of these complaints boil down to "bad media exists," and I've kinda got burnt out on those discussions once I outgrew watching Nostalgia Critic videos.

TAMAnnoying 2021-03-18 17:08:47 UTC #50

I’m so happy we think it’s fine to sweep raping men and consentraion camps in China under the rug cause “well bad media exisit”

Boy I’m already tired

But_a_Jape 2021-03-18 17:13:46 UTC #51

Disney's cooperation with a totalitarian government is a serious problem, but completely separate from the topic at hand. The current conversation is about the writing of gender dynamics in media, so I was speaking from that perspective. The only reason I brought up the Chinese government was to illustrate how discussion on Mulan's place in media criticism is focused on either the topic of Disney remakes or the topic of powerful companies being complicit in bolstering the Chinese government.

Perhaps my writing was inelegant, but I had no intention of tying the "bad media exists" statement to the CCP topic.

DiegoPalacios 2021-03-18 17:23:13 UTC #52

I would say there is a connection with the topic. Pandering to a totalitarian and sexist government will lead to sexist media. Looking at one of the roots on the issue is correlated to the issue itself.

But_a_Jape 2021-03-18 17:30:19 UTC #53

Is that really what's going on with Mulan's gender themes though? The assertion is that Mulan is part of a growing "female empowerment" trend that is detrimental to media. Are you suggesting that the "girl power" themes of Mulan are a result of pandering to the Chinese government?

irresponsiblepics 2021-03-18 17:33:37 UTC #54

Sucks to be that person... these people exist in their limited little echo chambers.
They lose out

SleepingPoppy 2021-03-18 17:34:59 UTC #55

I think it was a pretty weird way to go to bring Steve back, since they entirely ignore the moral dilemma of wiping out and taking over this innocent man's life. Since the moral dilemma was instead about Dianna's desire verses her obligations to the world, they might as well have just full magicked Steve back to life and not done the body swap.

It makes me wonder if there was an intention to address it, if it was intentionally ignored, or if everyone was too stupid to even see it? There was no narrative purpose to involving Random Dude.

Ignoring male rape in media is definitely a problem, though. I really liked most of Grimm, but there's at least two obvious cases of men being raped by a female villain- guess who got redeemed??? Though I wouldn't say she had a redemption arc, and to my understanding it was largely because of pandering to the fans. (And just generally so icky, I stopped watching at this point).

((Sorry, more a random drabble of thoughts that cropped up then directly related to the OP! XD ))

DiegoPalacios 2021-03-18 17:39:06 UTC #56

Actually, one could argue that female empowerment was dismissed by making the new Mulan an overpowered messiah archetype and missing the point of the story itself.

The original Mulan is about a woman doing what is right despite breaking the rules and traditions. Is about a woman who wanted to protect her ill father and willing to risk her life to do so.

Is about a woman who blossoms in adversity and despite not being the strongest warrior, overcomes her enemies by using her quick thinking.

Lunar-Turtle 2021-03-18 17:39:56 UTC #57

Yes, my beautiful boys are way too good for someone like that, lol

joannekwan 2021-03-18 17:53:19 UTC #58

Hesitant to reply because I don't know if Doki thinks this is derailing from the thread but:

All of the pandering in Mulan directed toward China was the attempt at making a film that was "authentic and accurate" to its historical and cultural setting. It flopped in this of course and Mulan bombed in China and received negative reviews as it did here.

Making Mulan overpowered where she doesn't have to train intensely for a length of time I feel is more of a trend born in western media as seen with Rey in Star Wars. The notion being that they shy away from making their female leads flawed or less-than-perfect and completely underestimate the audience's ability to appreciate a good character arc where she grows and organically becomes stronger.

(Then again I can only really speak for western media as that's the majority of what I consume currently)

ratscout 2021-03-18 17:56:02 UTC #59

I really don't think this is mysoginistic in nature? To me it just sounds like bad writing, or maybe even just writing that is not preferred by you, personally? Writing is just really complex, and I would really need to examine the examples you are using thoroughly to determine whether I agree or not (RWBY has never been of interest to me). There are literally dozens of reasons why male and female characters could be written like this--and I don't necessarily think it was because the writer intentionally wanted to make a bad male character to make a female character look better. Especially when you consider that there are a LOT of writers and people with all their fingers in the pots on these projects. It could be that a writer's plan for a male villain may have been completely different, but a coldhearted producer or director holding the whip told them to change it. XD

I dunno, misoginistic is a heavy word to be throwing around, and I think we should save it for cases we know are sexist in nature.

skicoak 2021-03-18 18:03:19 UTC #60

If they're doing parody comics about it...it's probably a thing.

I will add that I'm not sure this is really about male/female as much as it's about popularity/sex appeal mainly. Attractive characters get redemption arcs WAY more than goons do.

I'm not "hip" to all the latest manga/anima but in American comics it's been a trope forever...Harley Quinn, Catwoman, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch, Emma Frost, Mystique...the list goes on an on. It was mainly a side effect of predominant male leads in the titles and they were created as sexual tension foils... but it has morphed a little bit over time.

But_a_Jape 2021-03-18 18:03:57 UTC #61

This is a good topic to explore in itself, but I do feel like it's a different topic from what I was commenting on.

What you're discussing is how the story explores the themes of "female empowerment" and how it can ostensibly be about that theme but presents it in a completely different manner than another interpretation.

What I was commenting on is the wider discussion of "media as a whole pushing an anti-male/female empowerment agenda." The assertion being, Mulan is another heavy contributor towards society's growing anti-male bias. My objection is that in general discourse, Mulan isn't really contributing heavily towards that message because most people generally consider it a bad film, and films with very so little appeal typically do not contribute to wider cultural sentiment.

The reason I started speaking on its relation to the Chinese government is because I believe that discussion is what Mulan most heavily contributes to: the wider discussion on the global market's complicity with the CCP. In my view, this topic so heavily weighs on conversations about the film that there's no room for it to have even a minor impact on the general "male vs. female" discourse.

To sum up, my main point is that Mulan was a flop and very few people actually liked it (as @joannekwan noted above, even China didn't like it). Unpopular films have very little impact on general discourse. No one's jumping to Mulan's defense and holding it up as something to aspire to, so whatever problematic messages it presents are going to be drowned out by its poor reputation.