Sub for sub is shallow and worthless

[orbitkatart]

I know all the glitter of internet fame and glistening same-y looking series promoted in the front page has blinded us, making us to desire more of the glory. But in the end of the day, why we cannot just tell a story that people enjoy?

Absolutely this. Unfortunately it is the very nature of social media and content aggregator sites/apps that promote a frantic obsession with just the numbers themselves.

Shouldn't we be creating for the sake of creating? And because we love doing it?

[Nen]

You know there are tons of resources out there to help with this that you can read. I think at least one mod has posted a thread on this and frankly there are countless twitter threads, tumblr threads, youtube videos and legally freely available and not so legally available books explaining design and brand management. Fuck Steak-umm runs an account that basically does that on twitter and so does the Fall Guys brand manager Oliver Age 24. We should probably be harder on a persistent situation than worry about something that we can find millions of solutions to

[thedude3445]

I think it's worthwhile. I've found a few nice comics that I would never have read just because they were in my reading list from sub-for-subs, such as @mcarrowolga's stories. Yeah, the vast majority I will probably never end up reading, but I'll never read the vast majority of stuff in my reading list regardless, so that's probably OK.

[Nen]

It really pulls you down cause you think you're doing something wrong when you don't include yourself in these especially if everything else just isn't working due to a lack of luck. I get the pain

[orbitkatart]

I tend to see sub for sub situations with those who are early in their art journey. It's not always the case but it's more common. Not to mention, art is very subjective and people perceive quality differently.

[orbitkatart]

Sometimes I wonder what goes on in people's minds when they do it though

[vothnthorvaldson]

I personally think 'dead' (ie people not liking or commenting) sub for sub is useless and never do that; however I'm not ok at all that one has to focus on non-artist readers.
Not everyone has ambitions to become professional. Not all artists are asking for validation in a unhealthy way.
Subs from artists are very helpful to me and I never got into arguments over ego or exagerate susceptibility.

[orbitkatart]

Spend the rest of your life trying to forge relationships one by one or throw a bunch of money at advertisers. I think the truth of how to solve the problem is too depressing to make a topic over.
Besides, there's is no solution, or else it wouldn't be a problem. Not to mention not all solutions will work for everyone.

Also, I've never seen this topic cause I'm fairly new on here so shame on me

[orbitkatart]

If you're bad at saying no, just don't say anything and pretend you do not see it

[ar-ninetysix]

I get where you're coming from, but that doesn't exactly fix the issue either lol

Wouldn't it just be better to make this sort of information more common knowledge for those stepping into the realm? If that persistent situation is emerges out of people not being aware of these solutions to begin with, wouldn't the situation be bound to come up again? If you get rid of sub-for-sub, people are still going to be left with that need to find a way to get more attention and they'll come up with an alternative for it. That's partially why read-for-read came up as another variation of the trend (I believe so anyways, could be wrong)

[DiegoPalacios]

Could someone please instead recommend how to improve your online presence so that your comic or novel looks more appealing?? The whole process of posting episodes of a comic or novel goes deeper than just hitting upload and post, and I really wish people would actually try to help instead of just complaining and advising against a trend that doesn't work.

Like this idea.....i would create a topic with tips i learned from advertising, but first, wanna do it myself to prove it's efectiveness.....

Still gonna upgrade the art of some older pages to be fully presentable for marketing purposes

[skicoak]

Sub for Sub is so inefficient and people still do it which to me seems more an issue of ego than anything else

I made this point in a debate long ago but it's worth repeating...

There's something fundamentally wrong in making subs a goal for reaching the various monetization goals but the more concerning issue is their usage as a status point. We're being trained to look at subscribers/looks/likes before we, at no real risk, look at the actual series.

[orbitkatart]

That's true but I definitely see those seeking validation in unhealthy ways more and is why it's the focus in my rant. But it was not my intention to box all artists into this, but it is at least a loud majority

[DokiDokiTsuna]

In the end, the goal for artists is to obtain a non-artist audience because they are the ones who are more likely to consume your art/product. When it comes to artists supporting other artists, things get weird. Artists tend to have the fragilest of egos and when there are two fragile egos in the mix both asking for validation from each other for the same type of content, that is where things get dicey.

This I think is the most valuable insight. Harsh, but kinda true. ^^; (this is coming from an artist with a very big and very fragile ego)

And in addition to that...artists are usually kind of focused on their own work, especially on the platform they're posting on. I do 90% of my browsing on the platforms where I post the least (i.e. Twitter) and very little on the platforms where I post the most (i.e. DeviantArt).

So...yeah. You really do want to source most of your audience from the people who aren't artists themselves, at least not in the same medium. Sub-for-sub isn't likely to get you that, so if numbers are what you're after, it won't really help much in the long run.

[Utamee]

Oho.. what a sensitive topic that I need to stop my drawing time to comment on.

I tend to see sub for sub situations with those who are early in their art journey. It's not always the case but it's more common. Not to mention, art is very subjective and people perceive quality differently.

This, I agree. I never knew there's a sub for sub between artists before joining Tapas forum.
As a new creator, What I do when I see this? yup, just follow it. I totally think this is how Tapas work.
Of course, before reading this thread, I never know there's a similar thread ranting about sub for sub.
I think for a senior artist who doesn't like this better to talk to the forum admin.

Since @orbitkatart here just speaks his/her mind and not trying to put down any artist., I, who already did this sub for sub is not feeling down and I hope other artists (especially new like me) who did the same, not feeling down too. I'm sure all newbie just like me, we just follow the seniors, right?
Oh, btw, it's happened too, twice, some seniors, use newbie like me, telling subs for subs, then they unsub after got the sub. How about that?

Next, I see someone said about validation, even I automatically follow this sub for sub thread, I never once think this is validation or trying to lie to myself. I already know this is not a real reader, so I never hope they read my comic after sub nor I celebrate with the numbers or say thank you card for the sub. Is a deal anyway.

I already know, before posting, this gonna be hard( find reader), and I think my real follower is who visits my blog. I don't know about others, but what I always checked first, it's not Tapas/webtoon, but blog.
I believe everyone's goal, in the end, to see the possibility for monetization. Tapas limit to do this is lower than webtoon, so I can understand for people doing this. Make a comic is a labor, so, who doesn't want to get a little bit of a return?
Thus, until now, not change yet, I view Tapas as a platform to connect with other artists, not to sell the comic yet, since I know better than anyone, I still need many things to learn. I still do, learning, and I think making comics is a great practice for an artist, I see my art take a shape during this period of time.

I understand the stress for you who do this for a living or professional, or spend money to make it, but don't make mistakes, even though I'm still learning, my effort is not a joke either. I literally draw every day until morning, I started to eat in front of the computer, never have time to watch tv/movie/Netflix anymore. I only watched random artists' videos on how to draw this, how to draw that. Probably many of you do that.

Conclusions:
I don't mind sub for sub, because:

1. I saw Tapas as an artist hub (Just be real, no one true reader for me here).
   "wow, so many artists here, but I will forget them, no button to add friends." Easy, sub for sub.
   Of course, you can always, add each other SosMed for an alternative. I am not really SosMed person, I barely open my Fb account, and I only started making other SosMed specifically because I started a comic.

2. Educated me that art is very broad.
   Just a few months ago I was only a reader, and my rule to pick the comic, art looking good then story.
   I don't even try to click a comic with the art that not up to my style. I bet most people do this. Even with good art when I found the story boring, I will just stop reading it. I think this is a fact that everybody knows.
   But, with 'sub for sub', it's educated me to give changes equally to comic/novel before judging it. I trying to read everyone's comic that I sub, and surprisingly I even found a story that I curious about, even the art not my style.
   note: I promised to give it a try not promised to always read it.

3. related number 2, with sub for sub, I indirectly insist people read my comic first, then I can see how much who keep reading. It's like a survey. I like it if they give comments, critic or feedback too, since I have no one to do this in the real-life, I need this at least online. This way, I know which part the reader notices my mistakes.

Disclaimer: This is my state of mind for now. 'Mind' is a very fickle one, so I might change my mind on one or two my statements here in the future, I don't know. I think there's no shame in that. That's a very human thing.

So folks, I just stopped by to share my 2 cents and now off to draw.

[MeltingCORE]

I don't find any of this advice harsh, just true. When you're begging for subs with a promise to sub to others - you gain nothing. I do think a lot of us are guilty of focusing on the numbers. My brother (who is also a writer) pointed this out the other day: When you crave numbers... When you reach your goal? You simply will do nothing but crave an even bigger goal. But what is the real end goal?

I personally am subbed to a lot of creators because I like to show my support, however small that may be. That's just how I am - what other creators are doing fascinates me because of the immense diversity in genres and subjects people tackle. I don't expect any of them to sub me back nor do I ever ask. And most of them don't check me out. Which is fine! They don't owe me anything and my stuff is pretty niche anyways. I have been lucky, however, to gain friends here on the forums who are genuinely interested in my stuff. That's enough to make me personally happy. Even if it was just one person, for me, that'd be enough. I decided awhile ago I didn't want to get corrupted in the race for popularity like I've seen happen to others.

[KhanSpring]

Someone said it!
Have you ever read Dead Souls by Gogol? I feel like it's a great example of what's going on.
You'll have so much subscribers, but does that number matter when your reads are significantly less than the number that it presumably should be?
If you feel like you want to do sub for sub, do it, I am not discouraging you. You do what you want and feel like.
When I first started publishing my novel I did it too. Because I wanted to find some good works I could read and support and because I hoped someone would feel the same for my novel. But with time I felt like it did me no good. Because I felt like my goal for people to get the message of my novel wasn't happening. Like your stuck in libmo. You want to continue with your work, but your voice is a voice in a desert.

[skippyjoeskilling]

Sub for sub in terms of gaining readership is basically useless. I do think making connections with other creators on here is very good, but it's better to join a discord server or something.

Pretty much the only creator connections I've made from promotional threads were threads for really hyperspecific content (like, post your gay werewolf medieval fantasy comics!) where there was already going to be an automatic connection.

[uglygirlnextdoor]

I actually disagree, true you gain in numbers, and not so much on readers, but a small percentage turn out actually to be readers. and it helps your work to be trendy or popular where actual readers can find you easier. Numbers are useless for your satisfaction as an author, but they help you to reach your end game.

[xeu]

I agree. The whole pointlessness of it aside, I don't want dead subs, and I don't want people who don't enjoy my work to some degree. I can understand that sub for sub is tempting, especially when you're starting out and have very few followers, but it's a temptation that I believe writers and artists should avoid.

I'm sort of for read-for-read though, because when I do it (rarely), I make sure to make it clear that no one owes the other person a sub or a follow. Read-for-read for the purpose of critique is okay, and if they want to continue reading because they like it, that's cool.