Excellently worded tbh, couldn't have put this any better. If it was reddit I'd throw a platinum at you.

I especially love this sentence. as a former teacher, this is so incredibly put

Too many artists view ability as a binary and not as what it really is which is a never ending scale upon which we all as learners of art /writing are moving at our own paces and into our own specialties.

If nothing else, everyone should at least take this quote and hold it close to their chest. Thinking twice before getting into a sub 4 sub relationship with someone

As an advertising graduate, gotta second this.

The numbers are just a measure unit, but if ones tamper them artificially with practices like sub for sub, you are not getting the real results of your story's performance.

Followers mean nothing if there is no engagement.

Engaged people are the ones who recommend your story with other readers, make fanart, buy merch and post comments and theories......

Sub for sub is basically lying to yourself about your audience, and that can only harm you on the long term.

Hope this advice helps!

I like this.

Also, how can you be proud that your story is "well-received" and "high-quality" because it has big subscribers number, while those comes from people who are just being courteous and expecting you to pay back the favor. Why can you be complacent with such fakeness?

While some people can gain loyal active readers by sub-for-sub, I think I don't like the concept itself. It is like how some people can find true love by arranged marriage, but the system itself is shitty. Good that you can gain loyal readers, but I think most of us will rot in someone else's library.

It is inevitable, but when people (including me) are obsessed or tying their series' worth with numbers it's all goes down. They can go as far as sacrificing quality or integrity.

I think there must be a reminder that, it is probably fine not to be a behemoth with millions of subscribers. It does not affect how good or bad your story is (in fact I have seen questionable quality and shit story in Premium and popular series). It cannot be a parameter on how well-liked your story is.

I know all the glitter of internet fame and glistening same-y looking series promoted in the front page has blinded us, making us to desire more of the glory. But in the end of the day, why we cannot just tell a story that people enjoy?

Powerful, we stan a creator with confidence in their work

I don't really see what sub for sub has to do with the quality of art--that's kind of assuming everyone with low numbers can't draw, which isn't always aligned. Yes, better art makes better chances for higher numbers. But, it does not guarantee it. Being an artist is not the same career as being a social media giant, those are two separate jobs.

But yes, sub for sub has always been just busywork and it makes no sense to do it on a forum as small as this. You'd get maaaybe 100 followers. Maybe? So even if your only goal is numbers--you won't get it from sub for sub. Most people on there are first timers, who start a comic, make 4 or 5 updates, and then never use their account again because the next semester of High School started and they got distracted. It's not how networking works, you need to actually form connections.

Nowadays I just mute the promotions category and I don't have to see those posts anymore.

It makes no sense to do it period tbh, there is no value even in a gigantic forum cause you're not converting real readers

Sub for sub is not real support?
Imagine my shock...

Whats even funnier is that after this post, there is going to be another Sub for Sub post,

1

Pretty much says it all.

..Yeah, we know this already. We made several threads ranting about it before, and it doesn't stop people from making new sub-for-sub topics so like..?? Whatever lol

Real talk, I'm kinda over this. No one's really adding anything to the conversation, and everybody's just regurgitating the same sentiment over and over. We get it. Sub-for-sub is hollow, the numbers aren't real, the subs are barely readers, but hey, numbers go brrrr..

Could someone please instead recommend how to improve your online presence so that your comic or novel looks more appealing?? The whole process of posting episodes of a comic or novel goes deeper than just hitting upload and post, and I really wish people would actually try to help instead of just complaining and advising against a trend that doesn't work.

I hate it when I get offered a sub for sub and agree because I'm bad at saying no, but I don't even like their comic, so then I'm subbed to a comic until the end of time that I never even read. ._.

I think it's worthwhile. I've found a few nice comics that I would never have read just because they were in my reading list from sub-for-subs, such as @mcarrowolga's stories. Yeah, the vast majority I will probably never end up reading, but I'll never read the vast majority of stuff in my reading list regardless, so that's probably OK.

I personally think 'dead' (ie people not liking or commenting) sub for sub is useless and never do that; however I'm not ok at all that one has to focus on non-artist readers.
Not everyone has ambitions to become professional. Not all artists are asking for validation in a unhealthy way.
Subs from artists are very helpful to me and I never got into arguments over ego or exagerate susceptibility.

This I think is the most valuable insight. Harsh, but kinda true. ^^; (this is coming from an artist with a very big and very fragile ego)

And in addition to that...artists are usually kind of focused on their own work, especially on the platform they're posting on. I do 90% of my browsing on the platforms where I post the least (i.e. Twitter) and very little on the platforms where I post the most (i.e. DeviantArt).

So...yeah. You really do want to source most of your audience from the people who aren't artists themselves, at least not in the same medium. Sub-for-sub isn't likely to get you that, so if numbers are what you're after, it won't really help much in the long run.

Oho.. what a sensitive topic that I need to stop my drawing time to comment on.

Since @orbitkatart here just speaks his/her mind and not trying to put down any artist., I, who already did this sub for sub is not feeling down and I hope other artists (especially new like me) who did the same, not feeling down too. I'm sure all newbie just like me, we just follow the seniors, right?
Oh, btw, it's happened too, twice, some seniors, use newbie like me, telling subs for subs, then they unsub after got the sub. How about that?

Next, I see someone said about validation, even I automatically follow this sub for sub thread, I never once think this is validation or trying to lie to myself. I already know this is not a real reader, so I never hope they read my comic after sub nor I celebrate with the numbers or say thank you card for the sub. Is a deal anyway.

I already know, before posting, this gonna be hard( find reader), and I think my real follower is who visits my blog. I don't know about others, but what I always checked first, it's not Tapas/webtoon, but blog.
I believe everyone's goal, in the end, to see the possibility for monetization. Tapas limit to do this is lower than webtoon, so I can understand for people doing this. Make a comic is a labor, so, who doesn't want to get a little bit of a return?
Thus, until now, not change yet, I view Tapas as a platform to connect with other artists, not to sell the comic yet, since I know better than anyone, I still need many things to learn. I still do, learning, and I think making comics is a great practice for an artist, I see my art take a shape during this period of time.

I understand the stress for you who do this for a living or professional, or spend money to make it, but don't make mistakes, even though I'm still learning, my effort is not a joke either. I literally draw every day until morning, I started to eat in front of the computer, never have time to watch tv/movie/Netflix anymore. I only watched random artists' videos on how to draw this, how to draw that. Probably many of you do that.

Conclusions:
I don't mind sub for sub, because:

1. I saw Tapas as an artist hub (Just be real, no one true reader for me here).
   "wow, so many artists here, but I will forget them, no button to add friends." Easy, sub for sub.
   Of course, you can always, add each other SosMed for an alternative. I am not really SosMed person, I barely open my Fb account, and I only started making other SosMed specifically because I started a comic.

2. Educated me that art is very broad.
   Just a few months ago I was only a reader, and my rule to pick the comic, art looking good then story.
   I don't even try to click a comic with the art that not up to my style. I bet most people do this. Even with good art when I found the story boring, I will just stop reading it. I think this is a fact that everybody knows.
   But, with 'sub for sub', it's educated me to give changes equally to comic/novel before judging it. I trying to read everyone's comic that I sub, and surprisingly I even found a story that I curious about, even the art not my style.
   note: I promised to give it a try not promised to always read it.

3. related number 2, with sub for sub, I indirectly insist people read my comic first, then I can see how much who keep reading. It's like a survey. I like it if they give comments, critic or feedback too, since I have no one to do this in the real-life, I need this at least online. This way, I know which part the reader notices my mistakes.

Disclaimer: This is my state of mind for now. 'Mind' is a very fickle one, so I might change my mind on one or two my statements here in the future, I don't know. I think there's no shame in that. That's a very human thing.

So folks, I just stopped by to share my 2 cents and now off to draw.

I don't find any of this advice harsh, just true. When you're begging for subs with a promise to sub to others - you gain nothing. I do think a lot of us are guilty of focusing on the numbers. My brother (who is also a writer) pointed this out the other day: When you crave numbers... When you reach your goal? You simply will do nothing but crave an even bigger goal. But what is the real end goal?

I personally am subbed to a lot of creators because I like to show my support, however small that may be. That's just how I am - what other creators are doing fascinates me because of the immense diversity in genres and subjects people tackle. I don't expect any of them to sub me back nor do I ever ask. And most of them don't check me out. Which is fine! They don't owe me anything and my stuff is pretty niche anyways. I have been lucky, however, to gain friends here on the forums who are genuinely interested in my stuff. That's enough to make me personally happy. Even if it was just one person, for me, that'd be enough. I decided awhile ago I didn't want to get corrupted in the race for popularity like I've seen happen to others.

Someone said it!
Have you ever read Dead Souls by Gogol? I feel like it's a great example of what's going on.
You'll have so much subscribers, but does that number matter when your reads are significantly less than the number that it presumably should be?
If you feel like you want to do sub for sub, do it, I am not discouraging you. You do what you want and feel like.
When I first started publishing my novel I did it too. Because I wanted to find some good works I could read and support and because I hoped someone would feel the same for my novel. But with time I felt like it did me no good. Because I felt like my goal for people to get the message of my novel wasn't happening. Like your stuck in libmo. You want to continue with your work, but your voice is a voice in a desert.

Sub for sub in terms of gaining readership is basically useless. I do think making connections with other creators on here is very good, but it's better to join a discord server or something.

Pretty much the only creator connections I've made from promotional threads were threads for really hyperspecific content (like, post your gay werewolf medieval fantasy comics!) where there was already going to be an automatic connection.

I actually disagree, true you gain in numbers, and not so much on readers, but a small percentage turn out actually to be readers. and it helps your work to be trendy or popular where actual readers can find you easier. Numbers are useless for your satisfaction as an author, but they help you to reach your end game.

I agree. The whole pointlessness of it aside, I don't want dead subs, and I don't want people who don't enjoy my work to some degree. I can understand that sub for sub is tempting, especially when you're starting out and have very few followers, but it's a temptation that I believe writers and artists should avoid.

I'm sort of for read-for-read though, because when I do it (rarely), I make sure to make it clear that no one owes the other person a sub or a follow. Read-for-read for the purpose of critique is okay, and if they want to continue reading because they like it, that's cool.

I want to start with: I get why people sub for sub. I've said it a lot of times before and I'll say it again, I am NOT a fan of that progress bar on the Tapas dashboard, and that's as somebody who climbed past it within my first few months. I think it's horrible to place a big burden of expectation of what is "succeeding" onto developing artists who should be working on having fun, keeping going to build their stamina for outputting pages and making friends. My first ever webcomic had like... maybe 30 readers tops (probably less) and I'd have felt really demoralised if that was shown as less than a third of the progress bar permanently stuck mostly unfilled. I hate that bar and I can see why it would push anyone to want to gather subs, because hell, I was definitely not immune to it.
I'm friends with a number of people whose comics have thousands of subs, so I completely get what it's like to look at the numbers and to feel like you're underperforming, and game-ifying that feeling is really kinda thoughtless on Tapas' part, especially now the site has removed or reduced the effectiveness of many of the means for works to get discovered (like pretty much removing Trending, moving Staff Picks halfway down the app, changing the Popular algorithm to focus on recent likes....).

The reason I will always, always say "don't do sub for sub" is that it undermines your ability to see if your marketing is working. If you can't drop a picture of your comic, or the cover and blurb for your novel in a place and see an uptick in people checking out and subbing to your series, it could mean one of three things:

• You need to choose better marketing material, make a better banner, thumbnail, cover and/or blurb. Maybe this one doesn't read well at a distance because it's not high contrast enough or too busy, Maybe the image itself doesn't look interesting enough and needs to focus on something more visually interesting. For example, my banner used to be just the logotype title of the series on a white background. It had low clicks when I posted it around. I changed the banner to also include the characters from the cover and the clicks and subs from posting it went up, because it was more visually interesting and made it clearer what the comic contains in terms of art style and tone.

• You're posting your marketing material in the wrong place for the audience you want. Some comics do great on twitter, others better on insta and some do best on Reddit. Just overall we know from interviews that Tapas' readerbase skews heavily female aged 18-24, so if your work is aimed outside of that bracket, you'll naturally have to lower your expectations for what "performing well" looks like and see if there are better places to host your work. Some comics do better on webtoon, for example.

• This is the unpleasant one... Your work might... actually... still have some room for improvement (owch). Try the first two bulletpoints first, please! But if a work is really struggling, it might be that there are issues with things like readability or pacing.

The key thing to look for here, whether your readers came from sub-for-sub or organically, is actually comments. Are people reliably commenting on your episodes about what the characters are doing and what's happening in the plot? Are they speculating about what will happen next? If your comments are like that, you know the readers you do have are engaged, so it's probably more the case that you need to look into how and where you're advertising so you can find more engaged readers.
If you're almost never getting comments and the ones you get (especially ones that aren't from your BFFs who you regularly talk to about your characters on discord or similar, their comments can draw on external elaboration of details you might be omitting in your actual comic or novel) are vague and reference surface elements like a particular panel... that's where you should start to ask the question: "Are people actually struggling to follow and get engaged with this comic? Are there problems with the art or text readability, or maybe I didn't establish the characters clearly enough, or maybe the pacing is dragging and there isn't enough for readers to talk about?"

I said it before and I'll say it again. Sub for sub is a toxic way to build your story and audience... Because, well let's be honest, there's nobody there to support you with that.

IF that's all you do. From a marketing standpoint however, and when you have a plan, it can work. Think major companies who buy followers. Is it scummy? Yeah, i don't think buying followers is a good thing, neither am I forgiving them for it, but it does work. In a sense, sub for sub is a much more innocent version of that. It's just us petty creators inflating our numbers somewhat in the smallest way possible.

Sub for sub is bad for you when that's all you do, BUT if you can balance it with healthy read for reads in the beginning, and exchanging feedback, promotion, etc... Sub for sub is really just a small exchange in it all. Is a reader going to mind that a writer did a big "no-no" sub for sub with another creator? No. The sub number is always false because even readers who subscribes are very likely to ignore your story for a huge chunk of time until they forget or unsub themselves.

But from a psychological stand point, having an inflated number of subscribers helps, because then a new reader is more likely to subscribe if there is already a big group there. It's the mob mentality. This is why it is also smart to do read for reads/feedback for feedback with other creators because they can leave comments on your story. That encourages a reader to leave a comment too, because again, they won't feel like they are stepping on territory nobody else did. They wanna feel hidden but be supportive too.