Sub for Sub - It's become a bit of an issue

[ShidoDraws]

You know, @VibrantFox, it's difficult to say anything on social media because everyone is in different stages of their lives regardless of age. A lot of people who were on the forums ten years ago aren't here anymore, and in ten years from now who knows if this forum would still exist. I don't mean to bring down the mood but we'll probably have this same topic be brought up again in the future.

Based on this forum alone, a lot of people are here to make money. They want a piece of that pie that quite literally, is money from the same pool of people in the community. People just don't know how to market on social media to expand past the Tapas site and move outside of that realm of possibility to discover their audience. Understandably, it's difficult to expand without someone to help them market their work, because not every work can be marketed the same way.

So, now you have people coming in trick or treating for support. Like I said, the same pool of people supporting them. A lot of them stopped coming back and a few decided to stay in the forums because it's fun and engaging.

Sidenote, I don't interact much with the interactive threads people make, even though some I have drafted down responses but never replied, it's mostly due to the fact that a lot of it has heavy spoilers to my story. I also find it fun to just talk. Of course, I also lean more into the lurking category of people but I wouldn't say I'm a lurker. Haha!

[Abel]

I’m sorry—but if anyone is coming to Tapas thinking “I’m doing this to make money” then that’s problem number one. No one is making money on Tapas unless it’s friends supporting each other during Inksgiving or until they build an audience who separates them from the rest of what they’re reading, meaning that someone is creating a story that can’t be replaced.

What do I mean by that? If you take, for example, the princess-genre, people who aren’t into the genre say “they’re all the same”, but to an audience, a reader, they spend money on the stories they genuinely want to read, and some of those stories cannot be replaced by another with similarities. Maybe it’s because they like the leading lady a little more than the rest, maybe the male lead is more gorgeous than the others they’re reading, or the story is at a point where, if it stopped updating, there isn’t another story that can fill in the gap.

But, if there is, that gap is easily filled by the next story on their TBR. And if a reader has to choose between two stories of the same genre, one free and one paid, they’ll always pick the free one unless the paid story is something they find remarkable. And if a reader has a choice between WUF and paying, they’re going to wait—unless they really love what the author is creating.

And creators have to strive for this.

If anyone wants to make writing or drawing a money-making career—then Tapas is the LEAST of your concerns.

The way to profiting off your craft is to build relationships with your readers and producing something they genuinely love, not a quick read for funsies.

It harder work than anyone thinks. No amount of Tapas intervention is going to replace YOUR motivation and opportunity. If Tapas were to put your story on the front page as is, what would change? How would you keep the audience? And if they don’t stick around—why? And is it Tapas’s fault?

If anyone wants to make money with their comics or their stories, they have to spend money. My first cover commission cost $80 and I made nothing in return, but the cover I commissioned for my Kindle release was $200 and I made that back in profit over time. It’s a give and give and take.

And if there’s one thing I think everyone should do regarding networking—it’s approach people genuinely. Don’t befriend someone thinking “they’re going to be a great beta reader” or “they’re going to read my story” or “they might give me a shout out”, approach them because you love what they do and you want to learn from them.

I befriend A LOT of people, a lot of creators who are world’s ahead of me in talent and profit, but I do so because I freaking LOVE what they produce and I would love to learn more about them and their dedication. And NEVER once have I asked a larger creator friend for promotion or free merch/commissions or special treatment. I befriend them because they’re creating something that I know separates them from the rest.

And like I said earlier, NO ONE is building an audience by clicking post and sitting there with their fingers crossed, and no one is making money off their craft unless they’re spending money to produce the best of what they got.

[GamerPrincessXI]

I'm not trying to make money but at the same time, I'm commissioning two artists to help my story come to life....I'm dropping 400 dollars on amazing art that no one seems to appreciate. It's kinda sad....and feels like a waste of time. I already stopped updating on Webtoons.

[VibrantFox]

You know, @VibrantFox, it's difficult to say anything on social media because everyone is in different stages of their lives regardless of age. A lot of people who were on the forums ten years ago aren't here anymore, and in ten years from now who knows if this forum would still exist. I don't mean to bring down the mood but we'll probably have this same topic be brought up again in the future.

the funny thing is i'm of the demographic who was here ten years ago so i've gotten to see in real time whose stayed, whos gone and for those i managed to keep up with what they're doing elsewhere so the evolving landscape of the net and it's communities is something i observe a lot both from an analytical perspective but also coz its interesting (it's like how ive watched my neighborhood change over the past 20 or so years xD )

but i do have to second what @Abel has said about the making money side of things. Not a lot of people who go into this whether with the intent to make money or not will hit it big and the rare few who do "explode with popularity" or get these big opportunities didn't do it with just s4s or other forum marketing. When I mentioned there's tons of factors when it comes to that kind of thing it really is a ton (some seen, some not). Which is why it helps to both interact, learn and observe. The making friends and networking thing is how you learn what might work and what might not. Plus like they mentioned not every investment is going to earn returns as that's just a part of how things go.

Like Tapas things aside art in general is struggling like hell not just because of ai grifters or even site algorithms (though no one denies the impact they play as well) but an ongoing devaluing of the arts, audiences who just want instant gratification and a constant flow of content to consume regardless of quality and mass censorship if you've been keeping any tabs on the current news with payment processors going after platforms and what content they host (something i do think folks here really ought to consider looking at tbh)

But coming back to my point I think, yes it's natural for an online space to change over time it's the nature of things but it doesnt negate the value of building connections. I'm not some bespoke individual trying to sway the masses and force them to do anything but i know what impact just socializing and not solely advertising has done for me. By interacting with folks and just making friends I've gotten commissions, gotten to participate in small collabs and even done art exchanges. No i'm not some huge creator much less reveling in any kind of financial success but the journey and focusing on it and enjoying it has been better than just ceaselessly focusing on trying to reach some end goal.and i'm sure it makes me sound like some sap or bleeding heart maybe but i know what i have gained through those experiences.

[alextsarace]

I'm honestly curious why there are no comment for comment threads
I mean it's more cool to swap comments for each other works, not just subs

[ShidoDraws]

@VibrantFox

I completely agree with you and @Abel about literally everything. One doesn't need to be here since the beginning of the forum to understand how a community acts and keep up with the news constantly to know how businesses operate.

[bumblebeelz]

I'm gonna assume because it's more effort. To leave any sort of relevant comment, people would actually have to read the comic / novel. Even if it's only one episode, that's a much bigger timesink than just clicking the subscribe button and moving on to the next.

It could also be that support is locked behind subscriber count, so it's what everyone focuses on. People want to monetize their series, and comments / likes aren't relevant in that.

[jwabeasley]

There have been a few but it is more effort than subs/likes, and it's more of an issue if the person doesn't actually reciprocate. I always skip comment4comment with novelists because the effort it takes to read a novel chapter is far higher than a comic page or chapter. The one time I tried it with an offering novelist it wasn't reciprocated at all.

Instead I've just grown more liberal with commenting on the comics I sub to without expecting anything in return. Since I'm naturally a lurker, that takes a conscious effort.

[Krysteena]

Agreed they push other artists but not us little guys I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing I am handicapped and have no supporters outside of this platform and yes I have tried!

[jwabeasley]

I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing

That does not help the argument to keep s4s! Having novels ranked high via sub4sub that wouldn't otherwise be there is one of the problems!

[BellaTheCow]

Hey everyone! So wow ok a lot has been going on since I’ve taken a break from forums (and mostly cause I’ve been mind blowing busy) I saw this announcement just now lol and thought I would contribute my opinion before I get swamped with work again haha.

Pros of sub4sub:

1. Community Creators get more recognition, otherwise it sometimes seems like these creators are at risk of being pushed aside by the premium content Tapas promotes on the front page (although both sides do produce amazing stories and lately I’ve seen a good amount of community promotion from Tapas).

2. You can reach your ink goals quicker which while it could possibly be seen as an abuse of the ink system, could also be seen as a way for creators to circulate the ink (I hope this makes sense I’m half awake bear with me lol).

Cons of sub4sub

1. You might promote false interest in stories because most of the stories you sub you never read or don’t want to read so you end up being a fake sub, this is why I only sub to those stories I will read when I get the time and I let them know about me subbing but not in a “sub to me because I subbed to you” way, I want genuine subs and I know others want that too so I just give them a link and make sure they know sub only if they like because it’s their choice

2. Too much new read notifications filling up my mailbox 🤣🤣🤣

3. Too much spam in forums

Hope this helps! Let me know if yall need any clarification of my response. Be sure to tag me so I can see and respond (and possibly like the post so it can light up by my icon). And please bear with me I’m super busy lately so if I don’t get back in like even a week it’s not that I didn’t see anything it’s really that I can’t get to it at the moment, thank you for your understanding!

[BellaTheCow]

And I did see your mention of that game lol. @Krysteena I do miss that game and have been thinking about doing that when I can with @Aero sometime again. And if anyone wants to start another one yall are so welcome to do so it’s fun and would really help the community too I think. But only if you want to I don’t want any pressure on anyone. Peace! ️

[KennethLopezJr921]

The issue I have with sub4sub imo is that it requires commitment on both ends. If someone reads your stuff, you have to read there's. The issue is that not everyone is willing to make that commitment most of the time. That and its also not a great way to make new fans because of how transactional it is. Im honestly for getting rid of it, just because I want to see more varied forum threads that arent just sub 4 sub stuff. Like how it was before the discord was made

[DemonzuLucy]

sub x sub is like an ancient thing on the internet, well specifically YouTube, like 2012, and guess what... it never worked, and it won't work now

[Paul_Tromba]

I have been for and against sub4sub threads for varying reasons and have used them myself. Yes, it can be used to artificially inflate numbers or by people who just want the attention. However, I have also met a lot of good writers, found great stories, and received good readers of my own through them. TBH, it was really the only thing that allowed my novel to actually get seen by the community, due to my story not being of a particularly popular genre nor being a comic. There is the issue of AI writers, so not having sub4sub could be of some benefit. I guess it doesn't matter in the end. I will still be using the site.

[bulgariansumo]

I don't know if there's a kinder way to say this: Sub4sub is a method that makes me doubt a creator's skill. At best, it seems desperate. At worst, it's artificially inflating the subs of a series the creator knows can't stand on its own. That usually doesn't matter, but in certain situations, like the Action Fantasy tournament (iirc?), I remember contestants rightfully getting upset that some of the others were getting ahead by spamming sub4sub.

It also feels like one of those things you'll have to keep doing forever. If a series needs sub4sub to get readers in the first place, it's probably going to continue needing it after it crosses however many subscribers the creator is aiming for.

Whether or not it gets banned is no skin off my bones. I figure people will flock to "link and leave"-style promo threads in its absence.

I am pleasantly surprised to hear that some people who do sub4sub make an effort to engage with the series they're subbed to, but like other people said, it's not the only way to find series to engage with.

[UnholyWriter]

Hello! While I grew my novel mainly using the sub for sub method,

I think it's fair to say that it can be difficult for the countless small creators on Tapas to grow their novels without it's help, since subs will circulate around the community.

What I do think is that there should be a limit on how many subs you have before you can use sub 4 sub - e.g. If you pass 200 or 250, or maybe even 150 subs, your novel has reached out to a number of people equivalent to a year group in a large school, and so you shouldn't need sub 4 sub anymore.

However, this method also makes it seem as though you lack enough writing ability to be able to grow your series by yourself - using sub 4 sub feels like forcefully gaining fake fans. But, the counter to this is simple - if you don't want to appear that way, don't use it, I suppose.

That's my humble opinion, thank you very much!

[azurehayalet]

I only have one episode up of a series rn. I understand how it can be tempting to use sub4sub to feel like you're seen but I find it uninspiring. We're writers! We should be able to find another way of attracting attention. Something personal and interesting. I understand some people won't want to think about marketing on top of writing their story but that doesn't mean methods like sub4sub should be encouraged.

[rasteranime]

Ma'am as you read from my post it is more of a assessment, and as I mentioned sub4sub is messing up the algorithm and I do not want to partake into that culture anymore... I feel like it adds to the problem...

On a personal note I've seen your artwork on forums...and I think its beautiful and I feel you don't need to rely on sub4sub culture either... your comic will sail through on its own... I'll take my leave here... and let others voice their opinion topic... Good day to you Ma'am...

[kalmia]

I’ll be honest, the amount of sub 4 sub posts have turned my away from the tapas forums for nearly 2 years. They’ve clogged up the forums quite a lot and only recently did i learn that you’re even able to block self promo posts from showing up and decided to give the forums another try. I think either getting rid of them completely or severely limiting them would be great. Not just because of the clutter, but also because I think a lot of creators don’t realize how sub4sub is actually harmful to your own story. It leaves you with dead numbers. Your sub count might look nice but you get very little actual interaction or meaningful readers majority of the time since people only subbed to you because they want you to sub back to them, then they never actually read your story. And often times because of these dead numbers, actual readers will be turned away because to them, your numbers look like people subbed to your story and realized it wasn’t good. I’ve never engaged in sub4sub primarily for this reason. There’s a lot of times i’ll check out a “popular” comic on tapas only to find it gets on average 2 comments and 3 likes each update versus their 250 subs that would say otherwise. I’m personally for getting rid of it myself.