Sub for Sub - It's become a bit of an issue

[misfitcrew04]

Not gonna lie, I have interacted with those threads before, and I have discovered pretty unique stories and met other creators in that way. However, I've also seen other creators actively making numerous sub 4 sub posts and spamming their story multiple times a day, on the same thread as well. It's gotten pretty concerning that, that's all I see now instead of actual engagement. I don't think sub4sub is inherently bad, but too much of something can be.

While I won't say that I haven't done something similar before, I have tried to make new gimmicks when making promotional posts such as encouraging others to promote someone else, or asking others to tell what's unique or special about their story, and even promoting each others' socials instead of simply posting a link. Sub4Sub has become a way for others to be discovered and to quickly grow, but on the flip side it's also true that it can be abused.

I'm okay with removing sub4sub. I think doing so would cut down on a lot of spam posts and force others to think of new and creative ways of promoting their story and allowing them to truly shine and interact with other creators. But I also understand the impact it may have on suddenly banning it, and the potential backlash. I'm not sure if this can be implemented, but how about creating a sub4sub thread once a week? Like, creators cannot make one themselves, but there is a weekly official "subathon/subfest" or "promote your stories here" type of thread posted, and closed at the end of the day until a new one is made the next week?

[kokichiluvr]

Not to be shady but I remember seeing you on a sub4sub thread the other day so I wasn’t sure if you were for it or against it, @GarzaGoose And I get your point, but maybe calling people cringe, needy or begging could come across as a bit harsh too.

Honestly I don’t really think sub4sub is harming anyone. People don’t exactly get much out of it, maybe a few cents at most, and it’s usually just a small group of beginners. It’s not something sustainable in the long run, but I don’t see it as something that hurts anyone either.

For me it has actually been helpful. Like @susutaru said, it’s a way to meet new people and discover new stories. I leaned on it because starting out is really hard. New novels don’t get promoted anywhere and when I first tried posting normally I got ignored XD. Then I saw others doing sub4sub, gave it a try, and finally got noticed.

I do understand it can be annoying to see so many sub4sub posts, but maybe instead of hating on it the solution could be to regulate how often people can post them. I don’t know, that might make it less overwhelming.

It’s just a way to get started. A story with some subs and likes looks more appealing than one sitting at zero. That’s how I see it. But idk, I’m open to anyone’s opinion.

[EncryptedWriting]

I have an issue with sub 4 sub. Not because I find it is annoying (well I do) but because people over spam it. It is freaking annoying. I like promotional threads when they are engaging. However, sub 4 sub lacks any sort of emotion. Those subs arent real fans (nine out of ten times). I get hitting a milestone. It is fun to hit numbers. Hell I did sub 4 sub when starting TOB.

In my mind, shoot go for it. But when you post multiple threads a day for a sub 4 sub or just spamming your piece in areas where the topic isnt even close to regarding your piece, then it is annoying. Not to just me, but for everyone else in that thread. When folks spam links with no words, just a link, then I actively dislike you. You are annoying. You are spamming these threads. You take away from the sincerely of the forums.

Again, I dont mind a good promotional thread if it is done right. If it engages everyone. But when you post your link with nothing else to it, then you are annoying.

Is this harsh? Incredibly. Do I feel bad for calling it out? No.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[misfitcrew04]

Like I said, I've used it and done it before. I'm honest on that front. But that doesn't mean I haven't seen issues when people overdo it. I try not to spam a dozen every day or something. I'm not against sub4sub, but limiting it can be helpful. I'm sure some of us have used it as well, but thinking of more creative ways to promote a story could be nice too.

I remember making a really meaningful promotional thread where people are supposed to share how their story started and what it means to them, and there were two maybe three people who would just post their link there without engaging in the thread, and did it twice even. It does get annoying.

So I guess I could say I have seen both sides, and I'm okay with limiting or removing sub4sub. I'm not going to go ballistic if it were removed since I try to promote using my socials now most of the time, but I do understand that for others especially for those who are just starting out, it might take a bit of adjusting since it has sort of evolved into a mini culture.

[misfitcrew04]

woops didn't mean to reply to you specifically lmao, pressed the wrong one

[Humbug]

I'm one of those people who have muted the Promotions section. It was was getting real annoying when half of the front page is all sub4sub. And it seems to be getting pretty bad because it's starting to leak into sections outside of Promotions.

[ShidoDraws]

Subscriber counts are as powerful as you make them to be. Making it affect Novel rankings might mean that Tapas values Subscriber numbers over other metrics and that shows what the creators need in order to "make it" on the platform.

I personally can't make any real suggestions since I don't know what the staff can or cannot do, but getting rid of Sub for Sub threads wouldn't solve the problem. This is a bandage solution to a bigger problem, and a real solution should be considered following this action if executed, whether that'd be changing the Tapas guidelines or looking deeper into the root of the problem. Tapas users will go to other sites like Reddit, Discord, etc. to continue this behavior.

This problem is inevitable once a platform has expanded past its old moderation capabilities, the company itself has to think about making changes within. Like I said, I don't know what the staff can do with this information so I'm just going to leave it out there for Tapas.

[JokesterComics]

I really agree. It's also kind of annoying for it to be the only posts on my feed. Like, yeah, I agree, we should support each other, but I just find it rlly annoying to see it legit everywhere. It's kinda boring and I much rather prefer posts that are questions about someone's characters/world. Those are much more fun

[joeing25]

Sub 4 sub should just be changed to general promotion like everywhere else. For example, on sub-Reddit, you have a limit of self-promotion per month!

If the authors want to promote, they are fine to post their cover/ blurp/ etc. to show their story!
There is no need to do S4S. If people (even the fellow writers/creators) like to check out and sub, that's perfect. The author in turn can still see who is subbing and perhaps check out other works.

This will be a lot more organics.

But for what I've gathered. The discoverability in Tapas for novels is a bit low. That's why s4s existed in the first place, so the story can get a bit of the early boost.

Happy to see how you decide with s4s going forward.

[Krysteena]

I love the sub 4 sub but the things I hate about it is...

1. Creators not subbing in equal return. I have subbed way more then others that subscribed to mine.

2. The little guys like myself have no where else to sub so sometimes if we don't get traction here we might not get it at all in promotion.

3. The big guys get promoted with ads but not so much on the side of community.

4. I have misunderstood some of the rules and came off spammy...(Devoted to promoting) That said I was advised that interacting in other areas not just promote helps that image. -Not very social but anything for my book!-

5. AI art and AI novels should be took down. The art is easy to tell for the most part but I am unsure how you detect fake writing. There has been many 404 can't be found pages here lately.

6. I pay attention now where the thread will say like 46 a blue bubble next to the post and that means it hasn't be updated since then. If I am over 30+ people behind and almost 2 weeks washed out I will post again to be seen.

7. People not paying attention to the post comment like the games and just posting whatever. I may play a game a promote like the 3 door challenge that was fun with @BellaTheCow and we did small prizes or promote. But for others just dropping the same comment over and over every thread not truly interacting. That needs to stop!

8. People should work together equally as they are from themselves to promote and grow. 1 sub, like, comment in equal love in return! I am always subbing you back it you hit me up in anyway and even give gifts to my fans!

[Krysteena]

Something else for others to pay attention see this post I can remove it by muting cause I have surpassed 100 SUBS unless you make a new series and start fresh. I will sub and see they are promoting fresh like today at 500. Accidents happen but slow down!

[Krysteena]

Oh and this blue dot is what I was saying about how many people have posted ahead of you like the one that says 99 I may post back there again to bring it back to the top. @ratique There are things I didn't know until poking around. There should be a app or a crash course to newbies on forums. LIKE AM I THE ONLY ONE!!!! That didn't know we have badges we can earn.

Learning some of these things could cut back A lot on some of the chaos!

[the_mysteriousego]

I have always thought "sub4sub" as a label, or a title to a thread. In the case that sub4sub threads become prohibited, and normal promotion continues to persist, some users may still revert to the sub4sub tactic.

I usually read the series first, and like & sub if I enjoyed reading it and would like to read more. I have seen many users do the same. Although I have also observed that people do subscribe to get subscribers in return, but just removing the "sub4sub" keyword would not do anything (Of course, the moderators will not be chasing users in each and every thread, guessing if they did do a sub4sub ).

I am also quite dubious if the traffic gained from sub4sub should be a matter of concern. Sub4sub is another way of publicity after all, and subscribers gained from it do not necessarily imply that people have subscribed to the series just for the sake of it. Again, in the event that it is restricted, users would still have the freedom to choose what they want to do, which should be never be put under the scrutiny of restriction.

I think this is an important topic of discussion, and I thank the moderators for taking this up with us.

[LunarScyphozoa]

It may be a bit harsh, but I am all for sub4sub getting regulated or banned altogether. It artificially inflates numbers, clogs the forums hiding the actual promotion threads of people looking for things to read, and does just about nothing for real community building.

[Lingering_Wanderer]

Like @misfitcrew04 and many others, I've used sub4sub a few times when I was in the early stages of publishing my work. However, I find myself putting my work on shorter/newer sub4sub threads when I find the initiator's work cool/interesting. I've discovered many high-quality and passionate works through this avenue, and have made meaningful interactions with some of the creators. They, in turn, also support my work.

Though sub4sub is getting spammy, I am against the outright banning of sub4sub. Limit it to once a week and block repeat offenders who flout the rules. As someone who writes on Royal Road and Tapas, Tapas has non-existent visibility; Royal Road at least has an 'Updates' page for works that have posted new content (but the time a work stays there is limited). Therefore, I understand why people to sub4sub just for that bit of visibility. I got the most organic growth from the rotational Community Staff Picks and Staff Picks, but outside of that, I have to bank on the 'Popular' list for views and subs.

Create more avenues for organic growth. I think weekly CSP and SP picks are great at that as it features new and upcoming works and also brings older, established works for new readers. I also propose genre-based megathreads here for people to post their works if they belong. On my end, I try to make fun promotional threads (just once, actually)

As for community members, I think we could help the admins by encouraging discussions about our work and inviting other people to the conversation~

[Aeneas1]

I am thoroughly opposed to this decision. The reason being that I didn't get where I am today by simply relying on goodwill from everyone else. I worked my way to the top of this website through the sweat of my brow. If you ban sub for sub threads, my ability to continue to grow my following will be severely limited. Where else are my followers going to come from?

Besides, I am hoping to monetise my work one day, and to do that, my work would need to be popular and I don't know how else to get popular on the internet. I have promoted my work on Facebook and Instagram, and people are aware of that, but they're not visiting this website AND subscribing and that's the problem. I have an account on ComicFury, but only four people are subscribed there and I don't know what else to do.

Furthermore, very few people outside my family know who I am. Very few people offer me any bloody respect when I go on the Tube in the morning, and I hoped that by getting famous on the internet, I would be respected and liked. I don't know how to organically build a fanbase, and most of the time, people haven't cared.

[Azifri]

I also have the promotions category muted because it's a waste of space. Would be nice to see those sub4sub threads gone for good and have that category be somewhat useful again. I recall at some point there were ideas to keep self promotion to one thread per person - some users already have threads like that and it's actually interesting when they post WIPs and behind the scenes. But yeah, the way it is now, link dump and sub4sub threads are just annoying and a way to know who not to subscribe to.

[svlyisanliu]

Hey, just to say it - whatever will be figured out about this forum and what's going on on Discord - it won't really change the situation until the main reason why people try to get subs is there. Look at our author's dashboard. The goal is one and very clear: whatever Tapas has for authors as a gratification is related ONLY to the number of subscribers. I wonder if it would change if simply the milestone's banner were different.

Also, to add, I totally agree something should be done with this forum here. Also, subs and exchange of feedback, likes, comments - are tools for creators to connect and to grow, especially at the very beginning. It's not easy to gain visibility on Tapas; let's not forget that our work is shown in a tab 'Community' so a lot of readers won't even get there; they will focus on the main content from Tapas. Having said this, ways for creators to showcase their work would be appreciated - more of them not less.

[moontokkym]

I've definitely seen the extra spam of sub4sub, but it didn't bother me too much (i just cleared "new" when it was only those threads left) until the people "breached containment", creating sub4sub outside the "promotion" category (usually not even thinly veiled) and started mass advertising sub for sub in other threads because people started assuming they could and not looking at the actual conversations going on. I've seen 3 different people do that this week alone.

My bias is that I severely dislike sub4sub as a system. Very few people are actually willing to go and read and support others when they go on these threads and only do it for selfish reasons, the ones who actually go and read are kind and get a lot out of it, but it's not the majority. I don't want the few people who actually give as much as they get to be punished for it, but for the health of the forum i think it's necessary to find a way to stop the spam from spreading, and so far telling people nicely hasn't worked TwT

Maybe temporarily banning sub4sub threads might work? Like for 6 months so the spam has time to be forgotten, and then re-allowing it with strict rules (- one new sub4sub thread per person per month - no sub4sub in any other category other than "promotion" - you can be reported if you abuse the system, such as repeatedly massively subbing then unsubbing other people's stuff, etc...). I don't know if any of this could be effectively put in place and communicated, but there definitely needs to be a firm and widespread reminder of the rules.

[GiveMeThatBread]

I'm absolutely in favor of this.
Ban it.
Grow organically.
I've always advised against it to others because it just hurts their algorithm in the end. It was heavily abused during the novel contests to the point of constant reports, community guidelines violations (spamming reader and contestant walls to vote for them), and several of the top "performing" novels during these high-stakes events were purely sub4sub engagement, which felt highly unfair to those not participating in the scheme.

Thanks for addressing it!

I wonder if there could be a monthly promo thread like Reddit communities, where all certain topics are under one thread. Like "September sub4sub here" and sub4sub posts not under the main thread are deleted.