Sub for Sub - It's become a bit of an issue

[CarltonIsaac]

@ratique

To eliminate the deluge of Sub 4 Sub requests, Tapas needs to get rid of the milestones.
Stop the requirement of 'subscribers' to 'unlock features', and this need for Sub 4 Sub will cease.

[CEWashburn]

While I'm not totally against sub4sub, I can see why it's such a problem, and not just in terms of boosting ranks or whatever. When I sub to someone's work, it's because I'm legit interested and will actively read it, though I do get behind as many of us do, I'm sure. I hope that when someone subs to my stories, it isn't just to boost my sub numbers, but also because they enjoy what I write. That, to me, is the greatest way to show your support; not by subbing for its own sake but by actually reading and interacting with a creator's work.

This is just my opinion on the matter...I wouldn't know a solution that wouldn't be difficult to monitor or couldn't be skirted.

[powerplantanimations]

Yeah organic growth is probably the best lol. I AM REALLY SHOCKED IT TOOK YOU THIS LONG THOUGH. LIKE I'm sorry but WHY.

Heads-up, people will be doing sub-4-sub most likely with Discords outside your reach which makes it even trickier or them DMing people.

I'm bringing this up because Royalroad and Wattpad has become a hellscape for sub-4-subs, and Tapas is probably the best platform out of all of them.

Obviously you can't be everywhere, but just making you aware of a problem.

@ratique Also I agree with Carlton, quit it with the sub milestones. Probably be open with how the algorithm really works? Like how GL is more favored over other genres or how you guys look for artstyles that blend with your main projects?

Something that rewards proper engagement rather than mindless subs. I understand it'd take a while to peer review and it'd be a hard on you guys, but still though probably look for innovative ways to reward people because that'll help you stand out from your competitors.

Maybe do milestones with how many times you make it to Staff Picks or something? I dunno.

[MK-AKA-Morgan]

If this makes forum's easier for the the people running the forums I'm all for it- I'd hope that none of us would want to actively make the lives harder for the mods. It'll likely make it a bit harder for smaller creators to get support, so everyone reading this- remember to push extra to support the creators you do enjoy and maybe check out more smaller creators when you can!

[VibrantFox]

the only issue i think with something like "making it to staff picks" as a goal is the spamming would probably then be directed to staff trying to squeeze out info on what makes a staff picks worthy comic/novel or worst case scenario straight up harassing staff which while unlikely doesn't mean there's a non-zero chance of it happening

i firmly believe if people foster healthier engagement with the forums and focus on networking and making friends and not just hitting sub goals it'd make things a bit better.

if the concern is finding avenues for monetization then that should be expressed so that other solutions can be offered. its been a discussion on the forums before in the past and something im sure folks would be happy to offer advice about (so long as its genuinely heard) but abusing the system isnt the way to go.

and if its just gaining visibility new creators will have to learn that growth is not a magical overnight process and that its something that takes time, effort, consistency but especially time. no one with a massive following gets that instantly and if it does happen theres usually a combination of factors or a previous following from elsehwere

all that said i apologize for spouting off at your reply specifically as its not directed at you but i think these are things that people keep shoving aside in the name of just hitting targets or whatever else and itd be nice to see folks get it through their heads 🫠

[susutaru]

@VibrantFox
That my now be a little off topic. But i have a few thoughts about this.

Part 1:
I don't think that users will spam the redacteurs of the page to become staff pick and more bc. it's hard to find any contact data XD Also, that process isn't inflicted by contact of users i guess bot belongs to the decisions of the staff members themselfs.

Part 2:
What I didn't understand is ...what does being present and discuss in forums has to do with artistic skills? What has it to do if you have a lot of followers? It exactly doesn't say anything about your artistic skills. It's just how you can sell yourself and maybe put constant input in social media.

Nowadays it's really hard to get your audience. I grew up in a time, where - when you were good at something, you uploadet it and people looked at it and liked it (or not). I missed the step in social media, bc first i wasn't interested enough, later I did a long drawing break due to personal themes and now ...it's nearly impossible if you don't post reels on insta (and tbh i don't want to use insta anymore, bc my art is getting eated by AI; like in Facebook too).

So pls explain me - why does social interaction does make me a better artist?
Would you really read for example. my comic, just because we write so nice with each other outside the promote threads? (this situation is just fictional, pls don't take it as self-Promo /).(\ )

[jwabeasley]

Would you really read for example. my comic, just because we write so nice with each other outside the promote threads?

Well, I would - I have done that several times for comics, just like I read all my s4s comics. Though I'll admit I may be in the minority there.

[VibrantFox]

@susutaru

from my perspective networking is kind of a supplemental skill. no it may not directly relate to improving your craft BUT it will help you to build connections. connections can grow into friendships and some of those friends can also come to be readers of your work, people who you can create alongside, some one to bounce ideas off of or even share tips with. hence why i beg folks to really look at and engage with the forums outside of just promotion because even if it's not related to growth the social benefit, interacting with other people, is also good for you [whether they become a reader or not]

that's like a big thing i've come to learn in my time online is that while social media didn't always suck it has gotten worse and even though this is the case it is a thing you will sometimes have to engage with for promotion and interaction outside of the forums. a big big thing that helped me though is not looking at it as "i have to post these kind of things coz thats what gets engagement and do this to get eyes on my comic" and like making it this job thing. even though yeah i do wanna make money and grow from my art but i literally had to take like a year and a half break because i wound up hating it so so much and didn't really care about the numbers anymore but just wanted to interact with and socialize with other people.

which is kind of my big overarching point. yes it's natural and normal to want to grow but also being so obsessively consumed with making the numbers bigger does eventually begin to hurt you as a creator and that's speaking both from my own personal experience but also talking to and listening to other creators. by socializing by just making friends i have learned even more outside of just artistic improvement but how to survive mentally emotionally and physically as a creator, how to survive the hellscape of social media, how to keep my body healthy as an artist (especially taking care of my hands and wrists), how to avoid stress and manage burnout and best of all being able to just have fun talking to other people about stories i'm working on but also other interests and hobbies and just daily life stuff and it's made things so much better

i know not every creator wants to hear that and wont often see there being any benefit but it does make the creative journey a happier one and that's just as important as all the self promo and growth stuff. nurturing the soul helps to nurture your craft it's just not always in a visible sense

and a big second to @jwabeasley's response because during the times that i have been consistently active, talking with folks and having positive interactions has in some cases led to me reading people comics just coz we "had a nice chat" and it really is and can be that simple. obviously don't butter people up just to get them to read your comic but you'd be surprised the benefits to just socializing and talking with people. it's the same in business-y jobs too. why else would "company mixers" be a thing you hear about so often? the networking stuff helps too.

---

also another other thing i wanna share in terms of threads on here that not only made me a better artist but also just led to some really good discussions the Nitty Gritty Tips threads

https://forums.tapas.io/t/nitty-gritty-tips/34751

wont force anyone to read em but its got great info thats also kind of relevant to this and i think

[Lensing]

I agree and I also think that online and print comics by smaller creators are way more interesting
than the more commercial comics.

[ShidoDraws]

You know, @VibrantFox, it's difficult to say anything on social media because everyone is in different stages of their lives regardless of age. A lot of people who were on the forums ten years ago aren't here anymore, and in ten years from now who knows if this forum would still exist. I don't mean to bring down the mood but we'll probably have this same topic be brought up again in the future.

Based on this forum alone, a lot of people are here to make money. They want a piece of that pie that quite literally, is money from the same pool of people in the community. People just don't know how to market on social media to expand past the Tapas site and move outside of that realm of possibility to discover their audience. Understandably, it's difficult to expand without someone to help them market their work, because not every work can be marketed the same way.

So, now you have people coming in trick or treating for support. Like I said, the same pool of people supporting them. A lot of them stopped coming back and a few decided to stay in the forums because it's fun and engaging.

Sidenote, I don't interact much with the interactive threads people make, even though some I have drafted down responses but never replied, it's mostly due to the fact that a lot of it has heavy spoilers to my story. I also find it fun to just talk. Of course, I also lean more into the lurking category of people but I wouldn't say I'm a lurker. Haha!

[Abel]

I’m sorry—but if anyone is coming to Tapas thinking “I’m doing this to make money” then that’s problem number one. No one is making money on Tapas unless it’s friends supporting each other during Inksgiving or until they build an audience who separates them from the rest of what they’re reading, meaning that someone is creating a story that can’t be replaced.

What do I mean by that? If you take, for example, the princess-genre, people who aren’t into the genre say “they’re all the same”, but to an audience, a reader, they spend money on the stories they genuinely want to read, and some of those stories cannot be replaced by another with similarities. Maybe it’s because they like the leading lady a little more than the rest, maybe the male lead is more gorgeous than the others they’re reading, or the story is at a point where, if it stopped updating, there isn’t another story that can fill in the gap.

But, if there is, that gap is easily filled by the next story on their TBR. And if a reader has to choose between two stories of the same genre, one free and one paid, they’ll always pick the free one unless the paid story is something they find remarkable. And if a reader has a choice between WUF and paying, they’re going to wait—unless they really love what the author is creating.

And creators have to strive for this.

If anyone wants to make writing or drawing a money-making career—then Tapas is the LEAST of your concerns.

The way to profiting off your craft is to build relationships with your readers and producing something they genuinely love, not a quick read for funsies.

It harder work than anyone thinks. No amount of Tapas intervention is going to replace YOUR motivation and opportunity. If Tapas were to put your story on the front page as is, what would change? How would you keep the audience? And if they don’t stick around—why? And is it Tapas’s fault?

If anyone wants to make money with their comics or their stories, they have to spend money. My first cover commission cost $80 and I made nothing in return, but the cover I commissioned for my Kindle release was $200 and I made that back in profit over time. It’s a give and give and take.

And if there’s one thing I think everyone should do regarding networking—it’s approach people genuinely. Don’t befriend someone thinking “they’re going to be a great beta reader” or “they’re going to read my story” or “they might give me a shout out”, approach them because you love what they do and you want to learn from them.

I befriend A LOT of people, a lot of creators who are world’s ahead of me in talent and profit, but I do so because I freaking LOVE what they produce and I would love to learn more about them and their dedication. And NEVER once have I asked a larger creator friend for promotion or free merch/commissions or special treatment. I befriend them because they’re creating something that I know separates them from the rest.

And like I said earlier, NO ONE is building an audience by clicking post and sitting there with their fingers crossed, and no one is making money off their craft unless they’re spending money to produce the best of what they got.

[GamerPrincessXI]

I'm not trying to make money but at the same time, I'm commissioning two artists to help my story come to life....I'm dropping 400 dollars on amazing art that no one seems to appreciate. It's kinda sad....and feels like a waste of time. I already stopped updating on Webtoons.

[VibrantFox]

You know, @VibrantFox, it's difficult to say anything on social media because everyone is in different stages of their lives regardless of age. A lot of people who were on the forums ten years ago aren't here anymore, and in ten years from now who knows if this forum would still exist. I don't mean to bring down the mood but we'll probably have this same topic be brought up again in the future.

the funny thing is i'm of the demographic who was here ten years ago so i've gotten to see in real time whose stayed, whos gone and for those i managed to keep up with what they're doing elsewhere so the evolving landscape of the net and it's communities is something i observe a lot both from an analytical perspective but also coz its interesting (it's like how ive watched my neighborhood change over the past 20 or so years xD )

but i do have to second what @Abel has said about the making money side of things. Not a lot of people who go into this whether with the intent to make money or not will hit it big and the rare few who do "explode with popularity" or get these big opportunities didn't do it with just s4s or other forum marketing. When I mentioned there's tons of factors when it comes to that kind of thing it really is a ton (some seen, some not). Which is why it helps to both interact, learn and observe. The making friends and networking thing is how you learn what might work and what might not. Plus like they mentioned not every investment is going to earn returns as that's just a part of how things go.

Like Tapas things aside art in general is struggling like hell not just because of ai grifters or even site algorithms (though no one denies the impact they play as well) but an ongoing devaluing of the arts, audiences who just want instant gratification and a constant flow of content to consume regardless of quality and mass censorship if you've been keeping any tabs on the current news with payment processors going after platforms and what content they host (something i do think folks here really ought to consider looking at tbh)

But coming back to my point I think, yes it's natural for an online space to change over time it's the nature of things but it doesnt negate the value of building connections. I'm not some bespoke individual trying to sway the masses and force them to do anything but i know what impact just socializing and not solely advertising has done for me. By interacting with folks and just making friends I've gotten commissions, gotten to participate in small collabs and even done art exchanges. No i'm not some huge creator much less reveling in any kind of financial success but the journey and focusing on it and enjoying it has been better than just ceaselessly focusing on trying to reach some end goal.and i'm sure it makes me sound like some sap or bleeding heart maybe but i know what i have gained through those experiences.

[alextsarace]

I'm honestly curious why there are no comment for comment threads
I mean it's more cool to swap comments for each other works, not just subs

[ShidoDraws]

@VibrantFox

I completely agree with you and @Abel about literally everything. One doesn't need to be here since the beginning of the forum to understand how a community acts and keep up with the news constantly to know how businesses operate.

[bumblebeelz]

I'm gonna assume because it's more effort. To leave any sort of relevant comment, people would actually have to read the comic / novel. Even if it's only one episode, that's a much bigger timesink than just clicking the subscribe button and moving on to the next.

It could also be that support is locked behind subscriber count, so it's what everyone focuses on. People want to monetize their series, and comments / likes aren't relevant in that.

[jwabeasley]

There have been a few but it is more effort than subs/likes, and it's more of an issue if the person doesn't actually reciprocate. I always skip comment4comment with novelists because the effort it takes to read a novel chapter is far higher than a comic page or chapter. The one time I tried it with an offering novelist it wasn't reciprocated at all.

Instead I've just grown more liberal with commenting on the comics I sub to without expecting anything in return. Since I'm naturally a lurker, that takes a conscious effort.

[Krysteena]

Agreed they push other artists but not us little guys I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing I am handicapped and have no supporters outside of this platform and yes I have tried!

[jwabeasley]

I am ranked between 3 and 15 on action fantasy on the novel side but I upload and interact almost daily and If they took sub 4 sub down I would have nothing

That does not help the argument to keep s4s! Having novels ranked high via sub4sub that wouldn't otherwise be there is one of the problems!

[BellaTheCow]

Hey everyone! So wow ok a lot has been going on since I’ve taken a break from forums (and mostly cause I’ve been mind blowing busy) I saw this announcement just now lol and thought I would contribute my opinion before I get swamped with work again haha.

Pros of sub4sub:

1. Community Creators get more recognition, otherwise it sometimes seems like these creators are at risk of being pushed aside by the premium content Tapas promotes on the front page (although both sides do produce amazing stories and lately I’ve seen a good amount of community promotion from Tapas).

2. You can reach your ink goals quicker which while it could possibly be seen as an abuse of the ink system, could also be seen as a way for creators to circulate the ink (I hope this makes sense I’m half awake bear with me lol).

Cons of sub4sub

1. You might promote false interest in stories because most of the stories you sub you never read or don’t want to read so you end up being a fake sub, this is why I only sub to those stories I will read when I get the time and I let them know about me subbing but not in a “sub to me because I subbed to you” way, I want genuine subs and I know others want that too so I just give them a link and make sure they know sub only if they like because it’s their choice

2. Too much new read notifications filling up my mailbox 🤣🤣🤣

3. Too much spam in forums

Hope this helps! Let me know if yall need any clarification of my response. Be sure to tag me so I can see and respond (and possibly like the post so it can light up by my icon). And please bear with me I’m super busy lately so if I don’t get back in like even a week it’s not that I didn’t see anything it’s really that I can’t get to it at the moment, thank you for your understanding!