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Feb 2019

@HGohwell The main drawback of incest is that children with serious health issues may be born with higher probability from it, than from the couple of non-relatives. So it is irresponsible to make children this way. I suppose that it is the main reason why people accustomed to feel disgust to everything, related to this thing.
But I agree with your post. Incest don't harm anyone, if people who do it, are both of age of consent and don't make children (or just can't do it, as in homosexual couple). I adhere to the point of view that adults may do everything which they want behind closed doors if it is willingly, not harmful for anyone and they don't impose it to others.

Actually.... I don't try to avoid problems about those taboo things in my comic, I decided I was going to embrace them instead.
Sometimes drawing them very crudely, sometimes drawing them in a subtle manner.
I think it's necessary to show the different ugly faces of life in fictions (depends on the fictions in fact and how it is made). Because it exists and sometimes I think we can offer a certain thinking of things about it, the beginning of a way to deal with it.

The main difficulty of this approach is to sort out, what is really encouraged from author, and what is not, which was discussed in this topic:

I personally feel quite uncomfortable, if the character, which supposed to be the "good" one, does something, which I consider as something really disgusting/harmful, but no of other characters comment it, and nobody show any emotion about it. It is shown as something totally acceptable, nobody even notice that it is something bad, and they all just behave like everything is allright. I start to feel myself inadequate because of it, and also lose the sense of consistensy of the characters and their culture.
P.S. But now I've thought that probably it is ok for describing the culture of the fictional world, which is extremely different from our own? :thinking: I dunno

Hmmm I don't really see it as taboo subjects. I think everything should be fair game. But more like there are taboo ways to present ideas/tell stories.

For example, you wouldn't put rape in a Children's board book.

But likewise you shouldn't put something super fluff into a deep heavy and important adult scene either.

and @HGohwell

The biological explanation to ban incest is admissible, but it think it is not enough of an explanation in a modern world. Because one event of incest in a genealogy of people usually pairing with partners different enough genetically speaking, is less harmful than constant lower-level inbreeding.

Historically, both were usually happening together, so it makes sense evolutionary speaking to avoid too close parents. An incestuous generation was lowering significantly an already low genetic diversity due to generations of lower-level inbreeding, and that was a real danger. But now, the danger is way weaker, when we can increase enormously our genetic diversity with one single generation (parents of very different origins - and that doesn't have to be from different continent, it may just be two different cities of the same country. Even that was not necessarily available to our ancestors) ,so I think incest is almost solely a social ban now.

Personally, I have tendency to consider any relationship within a small community as (socially, and possible genetically) incestuous, but it's just my personal point of view, and I know it's super controversial.

Because of that, I think a relationship between 2 siblings that were separated and raised in different places is healthier that the relationship between 2 unrelated persons who know each other from birth, especially if they have the same background. But both cases would make me a bit uncomfortable anyway (the thing that makes me SUPER uncomfortable is when 2 persons know each other for a very long time but one was a child and the other an adult when they met. Arghhh, way worse to me than incest between two persons raised separately).

Interestingly, marriage between first cousins is legal in France, although not super common. Funny thing is that it's a bit frowned upon, but that a lot of French people love to make fun of North Americans for being disgusted by it :laughing: I don't know if it's only by love of contradiction or if it's not the same set of people.

I do not think, that any subject should be taboo for a comic, but these complicated topics need to be handled with care and research. To use the example of suicide:

Public report or depiction of suicide in mass media is known to have an effect on the public and it has been researched that an increase of follow up suicides can come from it. As a creator it is important to talk about uncomfortable subjects, if you feel equipped to do it. But it is also important to think about the potential harm and damage covering these issues can cause.

In the case of suicide there are guidelines to avoid these negative consequences, like not showing the method directly and things like that. I was super pissed when the show "13 reasons why" ignored nearly all of these guidelines in spite of having psychologists tell them, what to do.

If you include these potentially dangerous subjects in your work I would also advice to have a good reason to do so. It's nothing that should be used for just shock value, I think. You can also use your work to question these taboos (incest has been mentioned, which is an interesting topic to explore, I think).

But is there any sence to forbid a books or any kind of art, which may potentially inspire people to do bad things in some of interpretations? Bear in mind that if we will do it, we will lose a lot of classic literature, religious books and other kinds of cultural heritage.
1. For example, Middle Ages catolicists interpreted Bible that way which inspired them to burn witches and do crusades. But does anyone really think that Bible should be forbidden?
2. Or, closer to the suicide topic, should "The Sorrows of Young Werther" of Goethe be erased from literature annals because it caused copycat suicides?

Moreover, I don't think that author should carry any of responsibility for making the "inspiration" to do "bad things". The deeds of reader are the responsibility of reader.

TL;DR: Having dark stuff in your story can be super important, but you need to do your homework and be empathetic to those facing those issues irl! Yes, my comic does have some of those subjects. There is no way to avoid offending people, you will upset someone, just stay respectful and be open-minded to learning new things.


I personally really like darker topics, fiction should be able to cover any type ground, imo. I mean, what better way to explore your own emotions than within the controlled realm of a story? In the US taboo stuff runs along the lines of being (In my experience):

  • Rape
  • Abuse
  • Certain mental illnesses
  • Suicide
  • Race
  • Religion

Death/murder and nonsensical violence in media is more accepted, sometimes not even questioned, or even glorified. But man, if you add in one of the things I listed above, people get on your ass! I can see how some of these things can be touchy for a lot of people, as sad as it is rape and abuse hit really close to home for many folks, either being friends and family members of victims or victims themselves. My work did a survey not too long ago relating to this, out of the thousands of us 9 out of 10 was, or knows someone who was a victim of abuse and/or sexual assault. While exploring such topics in fiction can be cathartic for some, not everyone is alright with reliving the events.

Mental illness has classically been villainize, either used to make a character look stupid, insane, or evil. While we as a species are getting better, mental health still isn't given the best treatment. Anymore people like sweeping it under the rug, or using it as a cheap sympathy cash-in. (like how illnesses like cancer gets used as sympathy fodder) The subject is normally considered taboo because people just don't like talking or even thinking about it, mental health is a very personal, and most don't like making themselves that vulnerable to others. Even denying possibly seriously mental instabilities themselves.
My dad is a good example of this, he shows very obvious signs of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but refuses to acknowledge or even discuss the possibility of him having any mental problems. Not just because he's a boomer, and was raised that it's bad, but because it's extremely uncomfortable. (and, you know, the disorder)
Also mental health is still treated like a joke for a lot of people who just can't wrap their heads around it. My mom used to think you only got help if you were "crazy", as she put it. When she learned my uncle sought help for anger issues, possibly brought on by depression, she learned to take it more seriously.

Religion? Well, the US being an Theist evangelical country, there's a lot of feelings surrounding the inclusion of it in fiction. It doesn't help that works including this subject are either chick tracts or horror fictions where religious people are depicted as dumb monsters, or calculating murderers... or how people on both sides of the fence just blow this up in the worst way possible.

Race? Yeah, if you've schooled yourself on US history you can probably guess why this subject is taboo.

Suicide is similar to the mental health thing. It's an uncomfortable subject to talk about, usually leaving friends and family confused, and distressed.

Communities such as most of Tumblr, and the queer community kinda demonize the use of taboo subjects. Like, the very existence of something problematic being a work of fiction about queer characters is unspeakable! I'm kind of a douchebag contrarian, so I love tackling dark subjects not only because it's my personal preference, but because I've been told not to do so. I feel like they need to be discussed more, so I don't just have darker topics in my comic, I made them a major focal point. I don't care if people like it or not.
I will say, though. Research is soooo important if your going to use something that is so subjectively experienced, and in need to be taken seriously. My story focuses on mental health, abuse, some queerphobia, and will be touching on sexual assault later on. Before starting my comic I talked to people willing to discuss their experiences, therapists and psychologists about the medical side as well as their encounters with people suffering from the issues I'm working with (The HIPPA friendly version, of course), I watched videos, read research papers. Knowing the technical and personal side is incredible important. Getting the opposing pov, and the psychology behind that mindset is helpful too!

Even now I'm always learning new things and experiences from people. Also there is no real way to avoid causing problems, even the most respectful works covering dark topics can be taken badly or be seen as edgelord trash.

I did in no way advocate to forbid depiction of these topics. What I did say, is that you as the author have to use these topics responsibly. You DO have a responsibility, when it comes to your story. No, you are not directly responsible for what your readers do, but a badly handled story about suicide can be contributing factor in someones decision and I'd rather not be the person who provided that story. Or at least do my research correctly so I know what I'm doing.

With my example of 13 Reasons Why we are not talking about "some interpretations". We are talking about a creator deliberately ignoring guidelines provided to them by experts on the field. We are talking about a show with a massive appeal to a vulnerable demographic, that portrayed serious topics in a harmful way to the very demographic they were trying to reach. That is not how you use your platform responsibly.

The bible is not a good example and I would rather not go into it here. And as for Werter: I haven't read it personally (even though I'm german, lol), so I don't know how the topic is handled there.

Suicide is a cultural subject. In certain countries and religions it has been vilified because when you kill yourself, you take money away from those institutions. In other countries and religions it is acceptable, and in certain conditions expected. The indoctrination you received from your state and religion have formed your views on the subject. Most people never get past that indoctrination to form their own views.

I think it's fine to write about all the taboos. Art is a medium. Mediums all face censorship at one point or another. If people can't handle things then they can just choose not to read them.

An another note: Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire has a lot of that shit and people love it.

Okay, the fact of the matter is that you're going to offend somebody sooner or later with your work. Might as well just make the work you want to make and let it be judged for what it is rather than try to second-guess what other people may think. People launched a campaign to get the Teletubbies of all things banned, for crying out loud (It allegedly contained "pro-homosexual propaganda)!

Everybody has a right to be offended, and that's fine. Nobody has a right to not be offended or to demand that something that offends them is changed or destroyed.

I think there's two sides to this. To one side, I think a part of art is about pushing the envelope and exploring difficult topics. Sometimes it is a person exploring their own trauma, too, which deserves consideration. On the other hand, I think its appropriate to criticize any media that seems to promote insidious content, and I believe, particularly those creating media that reaches a large audience, there is absolutely a duty of consideration to the content created.

Like, I think Tapas' rules about hateful content and what not are very fair.

But the complications of these subjects is exactly why there are no hard and fast rules about what can be discussed.

I think it's less about condemning suicide, then just being sure not to glorify it. But exploring it honestly and with sensitivity is fine. I think "serious" can be subjective, because we're only going to want so many stories that are a really deep exploration of death, per say, but while a vampire story might come across as less serious, it could also be a way of broaching deep and difficult subjects from a different angle.

I'm not really sure what this is targeting? Cannibalism? Organ donors? Necrophilia? Just not sure the exact meaning. But one of my favorite shows was NBC Hannibal, so hey! Dead bodies! Also vampire stuff. Undead bodies~

Anything sexual is definitely more regulated in popular media, and sometimes to a ridiculous degree. This is another one where context would be hugely important to me. There are cases where creators include something like rape in a way thats very much "look how edgey and dark I am!". When, where, and how to include sexual violence in media will always be a sensitive subject, and it should be sensitive, but that doesn't mean people can't or shouldn't include or explore the topic.

On the bright side, indie media is much more able to tackle these topics, even if popular media isn't great with them.

Not so much insult, but I'm all for critique of these things. XD

Some. More so with future work. And I just plan to address it as thoughtfully and sensitively as possible. In some ways I don't feel equipped for that, but I think it's worth trying. And I do think its important to be sensitive to those creators (especially young ones!) who miss step with sensitive topics. People learn and grow over time, and we're all going to make mistakes and learn to change. A mob of hate for those that make mistakes is typically not a good or healthy way to create change. (though there might be cases where many people raising their voices loud is necessary for change, particularly in addressing someone in a position of power)

Everyone has the right to explore any topic, but they are not free from critique if they cross lines or promote harm in some way. It is both necessary to push limits and to create from a place of empathy. It is okay to make mistakes, but important to learn from them. :grin:

Having said that, doing offensive things in your writing just for the sake of doing it to be "edgy" can end up making you look really immature, lazy or just unpleasant. For example, it's generally discouraged to use rape as a way to trigger some drama in a story, not because it's abhorrent or offensive, but it's often a sign of a hack writer. It's considered a cheap way to get a horror reaction our of an audience

So yes, you can write whatever you want. But consider how what you write reflects on you.

I found dark subjects work best when its more subtle. Like I was playing Lisa the Painful recently and they really don't show much when it comes to really intense stuff like sexual abuse or play it off as comedic which helps balance it out. A really good piece of work makes you think about it and comprehend it than be shocked and maybe even laugh.
1

Yes, I agree that it is appropriate and sometimes even useful to criticize media, especially large ones, as well as study its impact on people, but with some reservations:

  1. Criticism should really be criticism and deal with its subject calmly and thoughtfully, not emotionally. Just blindly condemn and censure everything "indecent", point finger on it and scream about disgust is not really a criticism in my opinion. It is just emotional reaction, which shouldn't be a reason for making conclusions and serious decisions about the subject. Also criticism shouldn't lead to stigmatization of the author.
  2. Study should really be study and should be done by a scientific standards. For examples, "Petya have played a computer game and have killed his mother => computer games make kids killing" is not really studying an impact of the computer games. Such a conclusions, made by one or few cases are usually not logical and are made just for hype. They have nothing in common with real studying impact media on people.

I understand that you probably didn't justify anything like that. I say this more to fully clarify my position and to emphasize that I don't support people who spread misinformation under the guise of "studying media impact", as well as censorship, which has become so unhealthy in my country nowadays.

As far as I understand, these rules are proposed to restrict spreading a propaganda of inappropriate views. The complicated thing here is to define what propaganda is, and what isn't. But since I personally didn't see real cases of deleting comics for a reason of hateful content, it is hard to say anything else about it.

It includes everything listed here. The conception of "paying respect for a dead" have gone so far in minds of people, that they tend to completely forget that dead bodies are just a physical objects. Every simple mention of doing something with a dead body makes story more dark.

I would hope we all automatically assume that this should all be done with intellectual honesty! I shouldn't have to clarify that making shit up to extend an agenda (such as using video games as a scapegoat instead of talking about gun control) is not okay. ;D

Depends? I believe in learning from mistakes, but I also believe a pattern of behavior might earn the stigma it gets. Authorial intent would matter to me here, as well as the history of the person, and their likely future behavior. But I'm also for giving the benefit of the doubt, etc etc. I'd rather people try and fail on a sensitive topic then never try, because that's how people improve! ^^

rape and incest i guess :kissing:

these are the only topics that i rarely engage in art or conversations :confounded:

unless they start the topic then i go for it :confused:

i agree with you, i think the main problem about when a story touch these themes, often they do not touch them properly, like, for example, something not that controversial as, let's say, killing, is usually portrayed as a poorly executed plot device, or even worse, as a shock factor. the problem may not be about talking about these themes, but about how you talk about them, these sensible themes must be treated with intelligence, respect and sometimes with a more philosophical point of view.
I, personally, would say that someone should not be afraid of being controversial, but should not be disrespectful either

i dont think creativity should be restricted but like.... you have to take responsibility for how you portray these topics. adult x minor content is used by pedophiles to show to kids theyre grooming that "it's okay". people who consume sim cp and romanticized noncon can get really desensitized to it. you need to take care and make sure you're not sending the wrong message in the way you portray these things. you dont want to end up accidentally creating racist or pro abuse propaganda that can in turn be used to hurt people.

side note, people getting angry at these topics being misrepresented or romanticized and/or being pressured by the general population to remove said content isn't the same as censorship. american free speech laws protect you from the government, not from me.