Tapastic community too nice? (WARNING: Long rant)

[dglisson]

As a newbie creator (my comic is the first webcomic I have ever done and I started making it last November) I have already been on both sides of the spectrum. My readers who love my comic who are always providing encouraging commentary on the one end of it here on Tapastic, not really any criticism there! I requested a review once on this forum and was given a glowing recommendation from the reviewer. I requested critiques from a couple of my subs through private messaging whose honesty I trusted and received great feedback, mostly positive with a few things to focus on, but all of it very supportive.

Then on the other side of things, I once requested critiques of my comic on a site I mirror and had one person start with "Maybe I'm just being nitpicky but..." and proceeded to just tear the comic apart with a mixture of valid criticism of the art (mostly on the early pages) to questioning character motivations in the tiniest of manners, all in an extremely rude tone. I took what I felt to be valid, ignored the rest, and thanked him for all of it. I found it to be a positive experience as there definitely were concerns of value there.

Still, in my opinion if given the choice, due only to the rudeness of the tone, I would take the "Tapastic too niceness" any day.

[UrMom]

I would post more criticism, but 1. I don't have time, work takes up every aspect of my life now, and at the end of the day I hardly have energy to even work on my comic. 2. I'm not very nice, my criticism is blunt, which usually gets me a lot of crap that I no long have the energy to sort through. 3. (which is kinda related to 2) Me and my paranoid self find it kinda dangerous, not only have I had people send me death threats, I've seen people get doxxed for just saying something negative about someone's work. Sure I guess I don't have to worry about stuff like that here, but thanks to my general distrust of my own species and being too tired, I don't want to take any chances.

Maybe someday when people stop equating criticism to personal attacks, or aren't so into themselves they expect every bit of commentary on their work to be butt kissing, or sugar coated. Lol, but that'll never happen, we're too human. xP

[nathankschulz]

Honestly, I disagree. Nice is important. Don't we have the rest of the internet for absolute harsh truth? For rants about how everything sucks? Maybe tapastic should be viewed as a nursery. Not in a bad way, but in an early growing way. Sure, we ask for no-holds barred criticism, buuuuut.... c'mon we don't really want it. Seek out particular people for trusted, tempered opinion. Which you can find here. I think this is a site for letting people try stuff out and have fun. I'm in my 30's, but it took a damn long time to be ready to deal with criticism. Then again, I'm just a big marshmallow of a man, so what do I know?

[Luie]

I can relate to your point. There is a vague but general sense of niceness, and while I try to be as honest as I can, I often have to consider if I should say nothing to avoid offending somebody --Which is something that would never cross my mind in any other setting. This makes the critique itself much more time-consuming. I've done critiques that take over an hour, and on average they take at least 30 minutes if the comics themselves are short.

Generally when people start a thread asking the forum to critique their comic, it's because their comic is not doing as well as they expected or they suspect something about it isn't working and they are feeling under-confident about their work. For the fact that I would want someone to tell me when something isn't working, I try to give my best critique to anyone who asks. However, there are plenty of times when it's just too much work. Most of the time, it is simply because a comic is too long. And yes, I do notice a lack of response towards requests for critiques on comics who have a lot of things that aren't working. But I always assumed a lack of response is because the requesters are asking for a free service and most people, no matter how good their intentions are, don't have the time or energy for.

Criticism where it's wanted is an important thing, but it's a service that takes time and effort. If it's not being repaid in some way, it shouldn't be expected.

[kkitty]

It's a grey area in terms of unsolicited critiques.

I don't know, I like Tapastic. It's okay if people don't criticize that often. I also haven't thought of the fact that asking people to critique really is asking them to do something really good for free, so thank you to everyone that pointed that out. It'll make me put more effort in asking for critiques in the future.

I'm someone that no matter how much I understand I need critique and that there's room to improve, I'll still feel like I'm putting myself on blast when someone says something negative about my work. It's just who I am as a person. So I try extra hard to thank them in the end.

Reddit is one example of a place I hate though and a place where unsolicited critiques include:
-constant downvoting of art if the character isn't an attractive female that the majority of the fandom likes,
-telling me that my guys 'look like females' when the SOURCE MATERIAL WAS in fact a guy who was supposed to look androgynous,
-just a general attitude that I really hate. It's really pretentious, like they expect everything I post to be a masterpiece.

It kind of feels like I'm a chef that's not getting paid to feed a bunch of spoiled children that will spit the food back out if they find a single grain of salt too many.

Personally though, I think that Tapastic can afford to be a bit more critical. But Reddit is one example of what I think people are afraid of this forum being (which I'm sure it won't since the mods are active and on track a lot).

[VermillionWorks]

From what I've seen from reviewers and when someone asks for a critique, people here are usually pretty straight forward and honest.

I'm perfectly fine with criticism more on the blunt side, but I ain't going to encourage people to start being more brutal around here or in comments just for the sake of it, I enjoy Taps being a happy land. XD

Then again, maybe it's just because I dealt with the brutal side of webcomic comments/criticism for years and am just finding this refreshing. As some have said, there are still lots of other sites, webcomic-related or otherwise, where you can get more harshness. XP

[Aspie_Gamer]

Honestly, I prefer the fact that Tapastic is a very very mellow community. Having been a part of some toxic internet communities in the past, I can honestly say that I'd rather have warranted nice, but firm criticism on my comic than some unfunny asswipe review my comic in the style of a poor man's AVGN/Nostalgia Critic/Angry Joe/etc. out of the blue.

[demthorshie]

The issue is, criticism is endangered around here.

I think you bring up a pretty valid point when you say that criticism is almost non-existent here at the Tapastic forums. As already mentioned in previous posts before mine, some of us literally only critique others when they ask to be critiqued on something specific, whether it be a critique of their art, panel formatting or dialogue within their comics. The point is, I think it's a little messed up to assume that everyone is wanting to receive criticism when they haven't specifically asked for it.

The honest to god truth with that is that you don't know where they are in their own artistic abilities. For someone to issue an unsolicited critique on the internet is pointless and chances are, that person is probably not going to take that 'criticism' as advice, but rather an insult. That's why I will only critique someone if they are specifically asking to be critiqued. I don't see any real premise in doing otherwise.

[Makarov]

With all the toxic communities out there, in gaming, politics, work, social media etc. , it's quite refreshing to have a kind and nice community.

I'm really glad people at Tapastic are really nice, and I don't want that to change. Criticisms to point out mistakes for the sake of improvement can be done privately anyways.

[angelfire]

I agree with what you're saying. I know a lot of people have already shared their thoughts on this, so I'll share mine too ^^

I have greatly noticed the lack of criticism on this site. It's always bothered me. Especially when I ask for criticism and don't get any. It's honestly awful. I mean the encouragement is through the roof, but even I can see that I need to improve immensely.
There are people who don't take to criticism lightly, I used to be one of those people, but if they don't get that help (regardless of what stage they're at) they're going to continue doing the same mistakes thinking it's right.

It doesn't have to be something big either. Something like "Hey, I'm having trouble understanding" or "I think next time you should try a deeper color with that" is fine.
Don't be like "This sucks" or "I can't believe you said that!" be CONSTRUCTIVE about it.

I read lots of replies here about how they'd choose tapastic's "niceness" over other sites meanness, And yeah it makes sense, but quite honestly this niceness gets on my nerves.

[miseryhunting]

As a person who is just starting, I chose Tapastic as the place to post my first comic on. Why? Because I liked the variety of comics and the community of friendly creators. I already find it difficult to open up about my art and my passion for comics both online and in real life and it took me a lot of courage.
I think it is crucial for the community to be supportive in order to grow. If I feel welcomed, I would love it more, communicate more, and this way, learn from other comics and creators. Sometimes the positive changes in your skill set come from observation and sharing instead of demanding critique on your work. This being said, I don't mind receiving feedback, but for the ones that are just starting, having support is way more important.

[AnnaLandin]

First off - you do have a point. A lack of constructive criticism does mean that artists can stagnate. Surrounding yourself with all praise and no critiques means you will have a harder time seeing the flaws in your own work.

Secondly, though, I agree with @Shazzbaa - one of the reasons I rarely give big critiques (which need to be thoughtful and serious, not just "oh my god you suck at drawing faces practise anatomy") is that it takes a LOT of time. Not just in reading the work you're critiquing and writing out what you think, but in considering how to phrase that critique. There is an art to writing a proper critique that is more likely to be well-received and acted on by the person who is critiqued.

This can take hours, if not more, depending on the length of the work - because if I'm going to critique a thing, I'm going to want to have read all of it, so that I can put the work in some sort of context. I need those hours to draw comics.

Thirdly, not everyone here is looking for critiques. Some people here don't care about getting better at art, they're just doing it for fun.

And finally - I try to keep a positive tone even in my critiques. It's not about avoiding being critical so much as it is delivering that criticism in a friendly way. It is possible, and it is certainly a lot more likely that someone will receive that critique as constructive and helpful rather than hurtful. It hurts when someone comes in and tells you that this thing you love? This thing you've spent ages working on? Well, it sucks and you need to do better if you ever wanna get anywhere. And while there's a place for that kind of harsh wake-up call in criticism - some people do need the shake-up - I find that a lot of people who ask for criticism are already striving to improve, so they don't need the harshness. They just need an outsider's view on something they're already aware is imperfect.

TL; DR - it's possible to give helpful critiques and still be nice and friendly.

[scythe]

Fuck you all! I hate all your guts.

[scythe]

^ There. Problem fixed.

[Yap]

I gave a critique once, and I think I pissed the author off. It was a short and minor one just about his palette possibly being a bit too bright for the tone of the comic. And after that I felt like he was ignoring me until recently, despite that being my only issue. Could be a perfect example of the way I wrote it coming off as an ass. Or maybe he wasn't ignoring me, and just missed my future comments, and I'm being a bit too anxious. IDK.

But I'd rather have a nice and supportive community, with constructive criticism offered when asked.

[Pandastrophic]

I get your point but I'd rather have an overly nice community than anything else.

[TheVoidchildProject]

Several people make a good point in that it should be up to the person themselves what they're looking for. While it's my own firm opinion that constructive criticism is necessary for improvement, in any field not just making comics, another person may have a different aspiration.

If I post in the "comment on the last person's page"-thread for instance, I'm making it clear that I am subjecting myself to critique. Whereas that might not be as clear if you just read the actual comic. And therein lies a responsibility of the individual themselves to be clear on what they're looking for.

I don't even feel it necessary to comment further on the idea that you can provide criticism in a nice and positive manner. This should always be the case and if you're not doing it that way then your critique is more likely, and should be more likely to be disregarded and hasn't helped anyone regardless of your intention.

[KreativeConfusion]

I'll just start off by saying critique is useful and needed if you want to improve. However there's a lot of things that can affect the way a critique is received. If no one asked for it, then often people will get annoyed and may or may not take it into consideration. It varies from person to person, but I've seen people who just give up because they can't take critique, no matter how good the intentions behind it are. I've seen people get really passive aggressive as well, when people point out flaws they didn't want to talk about. (Which annoys me because from my experience, 99% of the time, these people are aware of the problems but don't want to fix them)

I'm not saying unwanted critique is bad, but sometimes people just don't want to hear it. And from what I can see the community here is pretty non confrontational, so giving unwanted advice is pretty avoided. Not to mention it's annoying when you take the time to try and help someone but they make it clear they don't want it. It feels like a waste on the critic's part.

However, in the case of actually asking for it? Go forth and tell the person what you think. Of course do it in a way that isn't rude (like just listing all the ways its wrong/ bad but giving nothing to work on. Like "I don't like your line work" instead of "Try to vary the pressure with your pen or work on defining the shadows a bit with thicker strokes. " Of course like what a lot of others say, a good critique can take time. I remember replying on the "comment advice here and advertise for your comic" forum and I wanted to say a lot but didn't have the time so I just took something I noticed and could be fixed quickly (because the "work on anatomy" advice can be tiring to hear since I think it's a given?) and replied with that.

[VermillionWorks]

It varies from person to person, but I've seen people who just give up because they can't take critique, no matter how good the intentions behind it are.

I think this sums it up well. Sure, we can say harsh criticism can open a person's eyes to things they really need to improve on, and it may very well do that, but then again, depending on the person's personality, they might just be so hurt that they drop art entirely or at least it leaves them in a bad cycle of constantly doubting their work to an insane degree. I've seen it happen before. This is why I think it's better to give harsh criticism when it's asked for...or again, at least around here. XP

@AnnaLandin made good points about how criticism takes time and thought to write, too. So when someone asks for a thorough critique of their entire comic and no one gives an answer, it might not be because they're too "nice" to answer, there may just not be a lot of people who want to buckle down and do that at the time. XP

[iddqd]

I agree that Tapastic is a nice community, in the sense that people encourage each other, and if someone has nothing nice to say, they say nothing. It's a very "live and let live" attitude, and I like it a lot, even though it means that the responsibility of getting any criticism rests with the author. @shazzbaa mentioned that criticism takes effort and time, so it only makes sense the author has to put in some effort into getting it too.

I haven't gotten any critical feedback on my comic here at all, and every time a thread like "will offer critique" appears, I am always too late to the party. Bummer. There was this guy here on forums who offered his services as a reviewer/editor for a very modest sum (a price of maybe two or three Starbucks drinks) and I am honestly thinking of getting in touch with him. I also think, hey, if you really want to get better, that might cost you in the monetary department. Matter of fact, I supported Ben Caldwell's project on Kickstarter once (and it did cost me), and got a 3-hour Skype critique of my comic. He really picked everything apart and put it back together for me. God bless capitalism.

On the other hand, I host on a non-English site, and unsolicited critiques come in spades. They're usually not very nice, either, and sometimes they just hurt. Only one person asked me if they could offer me their critique, I said yes, and boy, did they - but it was also proved very useful to me. I've learned to deal with unsolicited critique by strangers by either ignoring it if it is nasty, or a curt "thank you for your opinion" if it's nice enough, but unasked for. Kind of presumptuous to just barge in and tell the author how they should be doing things, don't you think?

All in all, I think Tapastic's "niceness" is a good thing. Those who want to get better will definitely find the way to get critiques, and everybody gets some encouragement whether they want to get better or not. Win-win.