The discord among the community

[minerrale]

This. Exactly this.
It is completely possible to appreciate one another's talents, and work together. It is also completely possible to ask each other for help. And to create worlds. And to eat ice cream together. Yeah.
My stories wouldn't exist without amazing artists willing to help me out. I wrote comic scripts for free too. Because why not?
Discord isn't necessary between artists and writers, and most of the time there is actually a lot of love and respect in this community. So y'all, chill out and grab a banana. It's good for your health.

[BobbyjoeX]

nah, your good, i dont remember things well when im having a breakdown of some sort, it may have came off as ranty and from the edit i made about how i may have taken the forum as the rabid cats, they really werent. that was caused from bad memory with the server after the thread was shut down

[seru]

The discourse among the community of artists and writers really stems from time and money.

Everyone wants to get paid for their time. if you're the captain of the ship, make sure your crew is well fed and taken care of.

I want to write a long winded paragraph here but this topic has been debated, argued, blah blah almost beating a dead horse at this point.

Anyway,

To writers, put your money where your mouth is and pay the artist to materialize your work. TIME IS MONEY. No one is owed art. PERIODT. If you want drawn comic pages, PAY UP.

To artists, KNOW YOUR WORTH. Don't fall into the trap of no pay EVER!!!

I'm not sure if I said this before but....here it goes...

Success and making money off of comics are extremely RARE. Honestly, it's better to work at a minimum paying job than to do comics full-time, but us creatives do it for passion or we're just naturally masochistic.

[SleepingPoppy]

I think having a breakdown is a fair reason to not quite remember things clearly! And no worries. I hope you're doing better now, though.

[Delphonse]

This pops up every once and awhile. Usually people joking about writers begging for art all the time. As someone who has spent over 20k on art since starting comics I can say making money on comics is easy if you are focused on it and know what to do. If your not interested in really working to earn money on projects then you won't.

A lot of creators want to make money but dont know how to they hope a script or piece of art will open the door to money but it really comes down to crowd funding and building a social media following that you can turn into an email list. That is what will help a lot of people seeking to earn money.

As a writer myself I see the biggest problem that even I deal with is writers never have something to show artists when they seek help. They give a short snippet of what their story is about but never usually give any writing history so the artist knows their skills.

Artists can be that way sometimes too. Seeking help without posting their portfolio.

It's not a big problem but it can look unprofessional and make people trust you less.

And the important thing in all of this is trust. You need to trust the writer or artist is good on their promise.

I am rambling a bit and might be off topic but I figured I was bored and wanted to give my 2 cents.

[Trevor]

there's a little more to those posts than what's on the surface. You're telling me to go condemn them to their face, but at least I'm actually condemning them at all. The only other person to condemn them was the creator defending themselves. The only other post that had any regards to the comment was Map handing out an excuse as to why the poster should be allowed to behave that way. You didn't condemn it, Map didn't condemn it, no one other than me and that writer has condemned them at all.

You say:

There are occasions where the community has over reacted to a collab pitch (usually from a writer), and I myself have pointed out when I felt it crossed the line.

so did that comment not cross the line for you then? Clearly you saw it, because you pointed out that it JUST happened when I posted this. And the fact that you have pointed out that scenarios like that post where artists over react like that have happened in the past, this kills your whole point that the discord does not exist and that it's over dramatization. I'll bet you if the search system on this site actually worked right I could probably find more myself as well.

That is, unless you're actually talking about responses to pseudo-writers and not legitimate collaborations. In which case, the problem clearly shows itself even now where you guys can't seem to figure out the proper terminology that SHOULD be used

You also say:

Most artists, if anything, suffer from a lot of self doubt.

as if artists are the only ones who do this or something

To which I say: "Yeah, and so do writers," I myself have a personal project in the works and I'm questioning if I'm even doing a good job on it, and every fucking day that self doubt crosses my mind like a fucking parasite. I don't speak for all writers, but im sure there's a fair few of them out there who are like this.

How does that response saying they're not worthy of a collaboration with an artist feel now?

Oh but I guess it's not a big deal and I'm just making it sound like it is, so that justifies me going to any artist looking for writer collaborations that I see and saying the artist is so lazy and shit at their art, they aren't worthy of collaborating with a writer I guess.

I'll even make a copy pasta for it for anyone else who wants to join me (Don't actually do this, I'm trying to make a point here):

Not to be rude or anything but Do you know the value of what you are asking for? all you are doing is the art and then the writer has to do the world building, grammar editing, story telling, then text? wow. and if your "Audience", doesn't like it that's it? the writer is fired?? LMAO wow interesting. I had no idea there were still people out there in the writers/artist world who thinks like you. They think a writer would just pick up any project all in the name of collaboration. and oh, just so you know, any writer who has a skill of 8/10 is actually very good one.
anyway, good luck. just wanted to post this comment so you can go back an rethink what you just posted.

I know what the response would be if I actually did this, there'll be another massive thread of artists complaining about how self entitled pseudo-writers are.

Mind you when I was talking about how artists in those debates seem to act like artists are perfect, I wasn't talking about narcissism, I was thinking more along the lines of white knighting, which I guess my bad writing in explaining that piece was more my fault than anything.

On top of that, it's not like im the first person to really say all of this, this has all been talked about before to... YOU actually, back in October.

(Mod Note: Removed Screenshots)

Taking a step back from the points that everyone is making here (some I agree with, others not as much) I just wanted to add some of my experiences as an example. I'd like to believe that I'm somewhat of an established author but when going into a collaboration, what's taken at face value is honestly what you bring to the table. Just like how artists have portfolios for professionals to look at, I clearly state my "portfolio". An example of a writer's "portfolio" won't usually be just a li…

This isn't the first time this has been brought up, and I'm certain it won't be the last.

[Maps]

I wasn’t trying to create an excuse on behalf of the rude poster. I am just not one for conflict and I wanted to give a reason as to why they may have acted that way and ask him more details about what he was looking for.

I’m no ones mother and I won’t be making excuses for them.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

We know you really took a conciliating and mediator role in all this mess. Don't worry. We love you for it

[Maps]

Thank you @QueenofBabyLoon ️. I had an “oh shit” moment here thinking “what have I accidentally done?!”

[SleepingPoppy]

so did that comment not cross the line for you then? Clearly you saw it, because you pointed out that it JUST happened when I posted this.

I'm no watchdog. I saw it, I thought about it, I didn't come up with a reply I was comfortable with, I walked away. I genuinely thought your critique of the situation was good, though.

as if artists are the only ones who do this or something

I was talking about artist doubts specifically in reference to the idea that they act perfect, as an "I don't really see this behavior". I wasn't denying writers suffer from insecurities?

Oh but I guess it's not a big deal and I'm just making it sound like it is, so that justifies me going to any artist looking for writer collaborations that I see and saying the artist is so lazy and shit at their art, they aren't worthy of collaborating with a writer I guess.

I thought suggesting that there is a community wide schism based on the art vs writing board was dramatic, that is in no way the same as saying the specific person in the specific thread's response to the OP was okay. I dont think it's okay to be jerks to people asking for collabs.

Mind you when I was talking about how artists in those debates seem to act like artists are perfect, I wasn't talking about narcissism, I was thinking more along the lines of white knighting, which I guess my bad writing in explaining that piece was more my fault than anything.

Not bad writing, but this does clarify what you meant, so, thank you.

On top of that, it's not like im the first person to really say all of this, this has all been talked about before to... YOU actually, back in October.

I was thinking pretty specifically about the art vs writing board. I have a better sense of what you're trying to talk about now. The capital "you" is silly and accusatory though. Like yes, I was also in that conversation. It was a thing that was talked about. I hope I didn't say anything dumb in it?

[skicoak]

The capital "you" is silly and accusatory though.

Just hear it in your head as Smokey the Bear identifying who can stop forest fires.

[UrMom]

Whoo, the more threads like this I see the less I'll ever want to collaborate. Too much melodrama.

the artists who I usually see engage in those writing vs art debates tend to act as if artists are perfect.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you show some recent examples of this? Because in the latest thread I couldn't find any, most of the discussion was people talking about the that drawing pages takes longer than writing them. Also comic unions, how you can compare writing with drawing, and other monetary stuff. In my whole life I think I've only seen a handful of artists who think they're perfect specimens of humanity.

I've seen a post before from an artist looking for a writer (a rare site) that basically had this incredible lack of care for the writer they were looking for, and was asking for free work, something I see artist complain about pseudo-writers doing on a daily basis:

Wow, I've never seen someone be upset about artists making threads to offer their services for free. That's so weird! Can you show an instance of an artist mistreating a writer who came to them in their 'I'll comic for you for free' thread? I wanna kick their ass.
From what I've seen, usually the writer's work is already done. Realistically, a person wouldn't submit a story that doesn't exist yet. (kids tend to jump in with a bare bones idea due to enthusiasm) If you're implying an artist should pay to convert someone else's story into a comic because offering their services for free is insulting to the writer, that's kinda strange? Assuming the story is already written, the artist would be doing most of the work at that point. Sooo that'd be like a farmer, who already has an established farm, charging someone who wanted to volunteer to help out... or something along those lines.
Asking for someone to draw a comic with no pay is kinda different from someone offering to draw a comic for no pay. One is asking for a service to be done, the other is offering a service... although I guess it could be seen as the artist asking for a free service? Everyone has their own perspective, I'm probably bias since I draw.

I thought everyone was being pretty civil in the latest discussion, no one seemed to be devaluing or generalizing anyone else, maybe I'm blind lmao! There are douchebags in every community, people are always going to fight about something, we're an asshole species. Best we can do is call out the ones with bad behavior, and hope that it may not happen again for a while.

Not saying what you said isn't justified, it is, and you have every right to want to discuss your problems. I personally agree with most of your post. Although it feels like you're kicking a dead horse at this point... if you're talking specifically about the Art vs. Writing thread. Sorry if I overlooked or misread anything, this migraine is making my brain fuzzy.

[Kittosaurus]

If you're implying an artist should pay to convert someone else's story into a comic because offering their services for free is insulting to the writer, that's kinda strange? Assuming the story is already written, the artist would be doing most of the work at that point. Sooo that'd be like a farmer, who already has an established farm, charging someone who wanted to volunteer to help out... or something along those lines.

Now I'd like to play devil's advocate here. Have you ever thought that maybe the artist is paying for the right to use the writer's story. There are some artists who may not want the burden of coming up with stories/ scripts and are happy to pay a writer to do that.

[SleepingPoppy]

I want to add, because it seems like it might bear saying, that boiled down specifically to the point: We shouldn't treat all collaboration requests like the pseudo-writer requests, and we should not foster an atmosphere where people feel uncomfortable asking for collabs, I completely agree.

I actually would go so far as to say we should give most people the benefit of the doubt, too, and give them a fair chance to correct mistakes.

[UrMom]

Lol why do people always say they're being a devil's advocate when they're expressing a different point of view? It make the person sound like they want to start shit, but then they start a polite discussion. Yeah, that makes sense. Even if the artist wouldn't be making a profit, it would make sense to pay to buy a story. I guess I saw it as someone doing a thing for me for free since I'm an opportunist.

[Kittosaurus]

Lol why do people always say they're being a devil's advocate when they're expressing a different point of view?

Habit I guess I apologize!

[UrMom]

Naw, man. You're good!

[SleepingPoppy]

I think if the artist was buying a story from a writer, they'd pay up front for the story, then the entirety of the comic project would belong to them. If the artist is offering to work on a story with/for a writer, we're in that sort of middle grey area of collaboration where both parties decide how to split things.

This is one area where things really fall in the artist's favor simply because there is a demand on the side of writers for artist services.

Though I have to say the idea of commissioning a writer for a short story to draw sounds really cool? XD

[Maps]

@SleepingPoppy

I agree with that last bit about allowing people to correct themselves. The troll poster was just attacking everyone so there was no saving him, but I think that when John posted he should have been given a chance to redeem himself, but was probably scared off by the aggressive first response. I think it’s important for people on the forums to take a deep breath after they read a post that gets to them, and then approach things civilly to see if they can be worked out civilly, rather than letting anger take control of-the-bat.
I’m sure like 95% of the creators here are willing to re-word or eleborate the way they’ve worded things, if it seems to have caused offense.

[skicoak]

At risk of alienating @DaniBoy...

Let me play Saint's advocate...

I think with the majority of the Artist seeking Writer threads, the very act is a call for true collaboration. They're not showing up with fully finished pages looking for dialogue... The potential union is starting on a ground floor adjacent starting with the artist's style/strengths. It doesn't eliminate the discord in potential fiscal matters but it's not in the realm of the artist adopting the role of publisher as much as when the story is fully formed/controlled by the writer.