The discord among the community

[Maps]

Thank you @QueenofBabyLoon ️. I had an “oh shit” moment here thinking “what have I accidentally done?!”

[SleepingPoppy]

so did that comment not cross the line for you then? Clearly you saw it, because you pointed out that it JUST happened when I posted this.

I'm no watchdog. I saw it, I thought about it, I didn't come up with a reply I was comfortable with, I walked away. I genuinely thought your critique of the situation was good, though.

as if artists are the only ones who do this or something

I was talking about artist doubts specifically in reference to the idea that they act perfect, as an "I don't really see this behavior". I wasn't denying writers suffer from insecurities?

Oh but I guess it's not a big deal and I'm just making it sound like it is, so that justifies me going to any artist looking for writer collaborations that I see and saying the artist is so lazy and shit at their art, they aren't worthy of collaborating with a writer I guess.

I thought suggesting that there is a community wide schism based on the art vs writing board was dramatic, that is in no way the same as saying the specific person in the specific thread's response to the OP was okay. I dont think it's okay to be jerks to people asking for collabs.

Mind you when I was talking about how artists in those debates seem to act like artists are perfect, I wasn't talking about narcissism, I was thinking more along the lines of white knighting, which I guess my bad writing in explaining that piece was more my fault than anything.

Not bad writing, but this does clarify what you meant, so, thank you.

On top of that, it's not like im the first person to really say all of this, this has all been talked about before to... YOU actually, back in October.

I was thinking pretty specifically about the art vs writing board. I have a better sense of what you're trying to talk about now. The capital "you" is silly and accusatory though. Like yes, I was also in that conversation. It was a thing that was talked about. I hope I didn't say anything dumb in it?

[skicoak]

The capital "you" is silly and accusatory though.

Just hear it in your head as Smokey the Bear identifying who can stop forest fires.

[UrMom]

Whoo, the more threads like this I see the less I'll ever want to collaborate. Too much melodrama.

the artists who I usually see engage in those writing vs art debates tend to act as if artists are perfect.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you show some recent examples of this? Because in the latest thread I couldn't find any, most of the discussion was people talking about the that drawing pages takes longer than writing them. Also comic unions, how you can compare writing with drawing, and other monetary stuff. In my whole life I think I've only seen a handful of artists who think they're perfect specimens of humanity.

I've seen a post before from an artist looking for a writer (a rare site) that basically had this incredible lack of care for the writer they were looking for, and was asking for free work, something I see artist complain about pseudo-writers doing on a daily basis:

Wow, I've never seen someone be upset about artists making threads to offer their services for free. That's so weird! Can you show an instance of an artist mistreating a writer who came to them in their 'I'll comic for you for free' thread? I wanna kick their ass.
From what I've seen, usually the writer's work is already done. Realistically, a person wouldn't submit a story that doesn't exist yet. (kids tend to jump in with a bare bones idea due to enthusiasm) If you're implying an artist should pay to convert someone else's story into a comic because offering their services for free is insulting to the writer, that's kinda strange? Assuming the story is already written, the artist would be doing most of the work at that point. Sooo that'd be like a farmer, who already has an established farm, charging someone who wanted to volunteer to help out... or something along those lines.
Asking for someone to draw a comic with no pay is kinda different from someone offering to draw a comic for no pay. One is asking for a service to be done, the other is offering a service... although I guess it could be seen as the artist asking for a free service? Everyone has their own perspective, I'm probably bias since I draw.

I thought everyone was being pretty civil in the latest discussion, no one seemed to be devaluing or generalizing anyone else, maybe I'm blind lmao! There are douchebags in every community, people are always going to fight about something, we're an asshole species. Best we can do is call out the ones with bad behavior, and hope that it may not happen again for a while.

Not saying what you said isn't justified, it is, and you have every right to want to discuss your problems. I personally agree with most of your post. Although it feels like you're kicking a dead horse at this point... if you're talking specifically about the Art vs. Writing thread. Sorry if I overlooked or misread anything, this migraine is making my brain fuzzy.

[Kittosaurus]

If you're implying an artist should pay to convert someone else's story into a comic because offering their services for free is insulting to the writer, that's kinda strange? Assuming the story is already written, the artist would be doing most of the work at that point. Sooo that'd be like a farmer, who already has an established farm, charging someone who wanted to volunteer to help out... or something along those lines.

Now I'd like to play devil's advocate here. Have you ever thought that maybe the artist is paying for the right to use the writer's story. There are some artists who may not want the burden of coming up with stories/ scripts and are happy to pay a writer to do that.

[SleepingPoppy]

I want to add, because it seems like it might bear saying, that boiled down specifically to the point: We shouldn't treat all collaboration requests like the pseudo-writer requests, and we should not foster an atmosphere where people feel uncomfortable asking for collabs, I completely agree.

I actually would go so far as to say we should give most people the benefit of the doubt, too, and give them a fair chance to correct mistakes.

[UrMom]

Lol why do people always say they're being a devil's advocate when they're expressing a different point of view? It make the person sound like they want to start shit, but then they start a polite discussion. Yeah, that makes sense. Even if the artist wouldn't be making a profit, it would make sense to pay to buy a story. I guess I saw it as someone doing a thing for me for free since I'm an opportunist.

[Kittosaurus]

Lol why do people always say they're being a devil's advocate when they're expressing a different point of view?

Habit I guess I apologize!

[UrMom]

Naw, man. You're good!

[SleepingPoppy]

I think if the artist was buying a story from a writer, they'd pay up front for the story, then the entirety of the comic project would belong to them. If the artist is offering to work on a story with/for a writer, we're in that sort of middle grey area of collaboration where both parties decide how to split things.

This is one area where things really fall in the artist's favor simply because there is a demand on the side of writers for artist services.

Though I have to say the idea of commissioning a writer for a short story to draw sounds really cool? XD

[Maps]

@SleepingPoppy

I agree with that last bit about allowing people to correct themselves. The troll poster was just attacking everyone so there was no saving him, but I think that when John posted he should have been given a chance to redeem himself, but was probably scared off by the aggressive first response. I think it’s important for people on the forums to take a deep breath after they read a post that gets to them, and then approach things civilly to see if they can be worked out civilly, rather than letting anger take control of-the-bat.
I’m sure like 95% of the creators here are willing to re-word or eleborate the way they’ve worded things, if it seems to have caused offense.

[skicoak]

At risk of alienating @DaniBoy...

Let me play Saint's advocate...

I think with the majority of the Artist seeking Writer threads, the very act is a call for true collaboration. They're not showing up with fully finished pages looking for dialogue... The potential union is starting on a ground floor adjacent starting with the artist's style/strengths. It doesn't eliminate the discord in potential fiscal matters but it's not in the realm of the artist adopting the role of publisher as much as when the story is fully formed/controlled by the writer.

[Maps]

People should be allowed to comfortably ask for a collaboration and they have a right to offer (not demand) what their expections are from a potential “teammate”. It’s the only way they’ll find someone who aligns with them and will work well with them. BUT they also need to be willing to discuss, adapt, negotiate, and compromise because their partner has just as much a right to share what their expectations are too. And they both can discuss if there will be pay or not and how all the logistics will work for them. Collabs should be teamwork.
If you do not want to collab, but you want to use someone’s writing or someone’s art, I think it’s fair that you pay (unless someone is willing to do the work for free) because at that point it seems to be a hire for work than a teamwork.

But I’m no businessman. It’s just what I think seems right.

[skicoak]

But I’m no businessman. It’s just what I think seems right.

Personally, when looking at these pitches or talking to creators, it's clear most of us aren't the keenest financial minds of our various generations.

When the hypothetical split of profits pops up, nobody even discusses what agreed upon expenditures are tallied before "profits". Our group just did a mini-convention, and by my projected bookeeping... Oddly Vanilla is in the red until 2036.

[ble]

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[DiegoPalacios]

I think there is a huge difference between a healthy and unhealthy debate. Most people use the word discord to describe the latest.

A healthy debate can be a pleasant and interesting conversation, where both people can learn something new. The more solid the arguments on both parts, the better.

An unhealthy one devolves into fallacies, personal attacks and is basically a war of egos that leads nowhere.

Completely agree with challenging the hive-mind thinking. Disagreements don`t neccesarilly need to get hostile.

[Trevor]

If I had instead used the word "Hostility" (a synonym for "discord") you guys would be arguing whether or not I'm talking about acts of warfare

[GamerPrincessXI]

I followed the whole writer verus artist thread and I find it to be silly. Ppl disagree over things that really aren't worth it. I get it, artist want to get paid for their hard work and dedication. Writers want validation for their hard work. I tried very hard at being an artist and a writer. I can't do both, but I can Animate. XD. Anyway, disagreements are bound to happen eventually. Old things come to pass and people fade away. That's life.

[UrMom]

LMAO! Woooow, you are salty! Also you're sounding a lot like that troll in the thread you've brought up, with the insults and insane hostility.

That one was my bad, like I said head was fuzzy. It is funny though that you're really into keeping writers and visual artists segregated with the "us vs. you" thing. (You said it's not like that in the OP, but your wording and wanting to make me seem like an oppressor comes off as otherwise)

get it through your skull that artists aren't the only ones who have their own standards, writers deserve to have their own standards too.

Please find where I said writers didn't deserve to have standards, thank you.

In all reality, expecting an artist to pay a writer to draw up their story is not so far off from artists asking for pay from pseudo-writers to do art for them. If I make a story, and it happens to be a popular one or that I worked really hard on it, I'm not just gonna hand the ownership of it to an artist I just met on the internet,

Wouldn't that depend on what the person wanted to do? Sure, an artist can buy a story from a writer, then it would pretty much be the artist's work. (As SleepingPoppy said) If the writer wanted to keep the story and collab, then it would be silly to have the artist pay since they would still be recreating the writer's story into a comic. Also if you didn't want a stranger on the internet who offered their services in a thread, you just wouldn't post in it. It's not like they're going up to you personally, saying "hey, you're popular. I want to turn your story into a comic! Give it to me!" Now that is ridiculous.

It might be a somewhat false equivalency, but pseudo-writers promise "free work" as well, but I don't see you defending pseudo-writers, do I?

Like I said, I was out of it. I don't defend the person you linked to, they're clearly a dumb child... at least I hope they're a child. Although the general idea of having an artist paying to colab with a writer is still weird. Also why would I bring up writers looking to colab when that's not what I wanted to talk about? If a writer truly wanted to colab, make the story a thing for both of them to get invested in (just like with an artist looking to work with a writer), yeah, I don't see a problem with the free thing if the artist is totally fine with it. However if the writer was asking for a service, then they'd have to pay.
They're not really that different, actually.

• Artist offers free work: They can either buy a story, or colab with a writer (for free).
• Writer requests artist: They can either commission the artist, or work out a way to colab with the artist (for free).

Whoo man, though! Thanks for that salty, salty response. You are B.I.T.T.E.R, damn! Careful dude, you might put the United Salt Corporation out of business if you keep that up.

[Maps]

@Trevor Ahh. I’ve had really nice conversations with you on the forums before and I have to admit I’m a little shocked by the way you’re speaking to people on this thread.