The mixed messages of BL

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 14:38:15 UTC #21

That's fair enough.

Some genres lean towards a specific art style. But if it is not a bad thing, why some BL defenders get deffensive when it's mentioned?

azzy-m 2020-10-29 14:39:47 UTC #22

I mean, I don't know if it's just me since I don't read a lot of BL (or romance for that matter, I've always gravitated towards fantasy or sci-fi stories) anyway, but the BL I've seen nowadays is a lot...better? Most of the seme-uke stories I've seen that don't seem to enforce the dynamic. Last ones I've read literally don't do this, having the two guys as equals, no one's inherently the top or bottom. Just a cute romance.

I also don't understand the "enforcing the stereotype" thing, at least in regards to the covers. I haven't read any of these, but I'm familiar with Boyfriends because I've stumbled across it before. It's literally a slice of life about a poly relationship between multiple men, and the cover does communicate that. I don't really see how that enforces any of the stereotypes when it comes to BL. Gotta agree with Junohugger here, i just see two guys (or in the case of boyfriends, multiple guys), in love with each other.

Problematic BL stories exist, just like how it exists in every genre. I just don't particularly see it in the screenshot you gave

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 14:43:18 UTC #23

Glad storytelling is evolving

The uke-seme was a strong criticism that was prominent enough in older BL works. That's why i mentioned it. And while not every one of these covers give that impression, there are enough examples to give the impression the trope is prominent.

shfra13 2020-10-29 14:43:58 UTC #24

I really want to highlight this statement as I've been thinking of this for quite a while. A lot of manhwa/manhua titles translated by Tapas reinforce tropes that are harmful (which is... still kinda curious, to be honest)--and as they are titles for business, they become the face of the BL genre, even though the genre itself covers quite a diversity.

On the other side, just because a BL comic itself has a pair of formulized taller dude x shorter dude, I don't think it's always trying to portray the seme x uke dynamic. So, I don't think it's fair to judge it on face value.

Junohugger 2020-10-29 14:45:15 UTC #25

there are enough examples to give the impression the trope is prominent.

In what way? Can you describe which ones do this? I can't tell myself from any of those covers! haha!

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 14:45:37 UTC #26

the examples that communicate seme-uke are based on body language more than in height.

foxnflames 2020-10-29 14:45:51 UTC #27

Those would be more of what you’d think of as “Yaoi” comics. And by dubious I mean blackmail or some type of coercion as a catalyst for a relationship. Granted, there are PLENTY of yaoi that start off with an MC getting assaulted, drugged, r*aped, and there’s this weird romantic spin on it.

There are stories on here where those are defining points of the relationship but they’re branded as reprehensible. For example, Blood of the Sun is a new mature comic and it has a LOT of dubious consent (I’ve read elsewhere so I know more of how the story goes). And I comment stalk and readers seem to not discern between “this is meant to be toxic” and “toxic=romance=norm”. But I’m digressing probably rolling all my thoughts into one.

darthmongoose 2020-10-29 14:47:37 UTC #28

People who are fans of literally ANY genre get pissed when somebody who doesn't like that genre or isn't interested in it say "oh, that stuff is all the same. Not like MY favourite genre which is full of nuance." Like, go up to a Steven Universe and Adventure Time fan and say "psh, modern cartoons all look exactly the same, they all have Cal-Arts hotdog mouth" and they'll be pissed. Go up to a fan of indie print comics and say "UGH, indie comics is all like wobbly people with their pants hiked up drawn by somebody who can't hold a pen steady complaining about their divorce" and they'll probably be pissed. Go up to a fan of impressionist painting and say "I honestly really can't tell the difference between Monet and Van Gogh, they both just paint a bunch of blobs and expect you to interpret it as a landscape" and.... yeah, you get where I'm coming from, right?

People from outside the North of England think my Cumbrian accent is completely identical to Jodi Whittaker's Yorkshire accent because they aren't close enough to see the nuances, and they don't understand why it is upsetting for them to gloss over my unique identity by lumping the east and west of the North together like that just because their ears aren't tuned into differences like my heavier U sound and less flat and nasal A sound and the more lilting cadence of my speech. It doesn't mean the differences aren't there or aren't meaningful to people who do see them.

Junohugger 2020-10-29 14:49:11 UTC #29

It's interesting you mention this, as I find that (at least in my experience on Tapas) its the hetero romance titles that are far more weighted to this sort of dynamic than any of the BL that I've seen. It's interesting how we do tend to attach disturbing dynamics to M/M relationships, going so far as to see a depiction of two men hugging and think "oh thats Seme/Uke for SURE" When it's like, no, its just two boys hugging?

The hetero stuff has "I AM FORCED TO MARRY HIM!?!?!?" slapped all over them so I find they're a LOT more clear in the dub-con vibes. Gives me the willies.

Jenny-Toons 2020-10-29 14:49:44 UTC #30

Adding onto to the promotion aspect, bad promotion can lead to a BL seemingly romanticizing harmful tropes. There are some BL that bank on being problematic, and you can tell it's supposed to be this way because it's not labeled romance, or there's another genre like horror/drama/thriller. So the readers can pick up on that or the author is going "oh yeah no, this isn't a healthy relationship".

But then you get promos that make those stories seem romantic?

It's weird -- and exactly the thing that happened to Killing Stalking. It was BL, but the main tag was psychological horror. It had the atmosphere of most of the horror/thriller comics on Lezhin. And it got promoted as a romance BL. Granted, pretty sure the author made some bank from that, but they also had to tell people "no, this isn't actually a sweet romance. It's not even healthy. They're both kinda shitty people"

So that definitely adds to the confusion, especially when readers go in with that assumption. For someone like me, I'd be able to tell "yeah, the promo kinda botched that". But for some readers (some younger readers) will take that promo to heart, base their experience from reading other BL (that may or may not be dubious) and try(?) to find ways to claim it's ok?

A lot of things get messy with a vague/misleading promo added in the mix. Definitely something I've seen in other genres, but I definitely notice it in BL/GL comics. Even with the romance comics with the CEO tropes. Doesn't really make me wanna read them, if the promo is that bad.

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 14:49:56 UTC #31

Sure!, NP. This is the ones that give an uke-seme impression. This is based on body language.

Junohugger 2020-10-29 14:55:30 UTC #32

I don't see it in any of these though, can you describe what says Uke/Seme to you in these? "All Strings Attached" is the only one that looks like it may potentially depict that dynamic as the blonde boy looks a bit stressed! "DaiMaou" too perhaps?

The rest you've circled all look like they may just be different sized boys. The all have similar expressions and no one looks to be dominating the other. Especially "My Gentle Giant" That one looks really sweet actually hehe :3

Perhaps we disagree on what Uke/Seme body language looks like? I think its more of an actual relationship dynamic rather than one boy being big and one smol, though I am no expert!

Eiranyx 2020-10-29 14:56:42 UTC #33

I just read this in article provided in one of the seminars focusing on BL
Well I say BL -- is actually a general term for mlm relationship which means that it includes shounen ai and Yaoi
while you can say that BL is similar to yaoi --- you're partly right and partly wrong because BL is a general term and by general term, it means that the stories under BL genre varies accordingly
for example:
Shounen Ai -- are mostly fluffs and the one involved in a relationship are usually a young boy -- it focus mostly on puppy love and all those fluffy stuffs you can think of just like when you first fell in love in high school (which makes sense because it literally mean "the love of a young boy") its mostly about how the main character face his struggles in his first love.
Yaoi -- on the other hand, these works usually involved erotic stuffs since YAOI is an abbreviation for Yama nashi, Oshi nashi Imi nashi which when translated to english it literally means no climax, no anti-climax, no meaning -- -- which means that it either focus on the sexual stuffs, no plot or Less plot, more erotic stuffs.
To sum it up, both examples still falls under BL-- the general term of stories about mlm.
Also that's from what I learned during the seminar, and even researchers still debates on the word usage since the words and terminology varies on regions-- which may affect their perception of the word.

LGBTQ+ stories on the other hand, in my current understanding, usually focus on more than one sexuality in the story -- which includes Lesbians, Gays, Bi, Trans, Queer etc. some publishers call it Pride Lit works instead (well at least in my country, idk if they have this term in your country) pride lit are literary works that are mostly(take note mostly) written by members of the LGBTQ+ community to express their creativity to support LGBTQ+ community.

So yeah that's what I currently know and I know I still have a lot to know and just want to share it

foxnflames 2020-10-29 14:56:59 UTC #34

Since they’re both romance, the similar tropes will be there. BL and other queer stories will be held to a higher standard mainly due to marginalization. When there’s a lack of representation (grand scheme, not popularity on tapas), those stories and people are forced to be the “poster child” and subjected to bear the brunt of criticism and scrutiny.

Junohugger 2020-10-29 14:57:58 UTC #35

Yeah, that's so true

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 14:59:50 UTC #36

That's an interesting point. Being considered a poster child and representation leads to a stronger pressure, but also to a bigger responsibility.

shfra13 2020-10-29 15:00:56 UTC #37

Ahh, I understand what you mean. Though, my question is, how many of it actually reinforces the seme - uke dynamic? Is it stated, shown, or assumed?

Junohugger 2020-10-29 15:02:38 UTC #38

I'll tell you what it is, it's a pain in the bum! Sometimes you just wanna make a silly gay comic in peace!

snailienz 2020-10-29 15:03:24 UTC #39

My dude, unless you read a comic, don't go out and criticize it. these styles are incredibly varied, just not varied in the way you personally want them to be. judging by the moods in the images, i would bargain to say that most of these have varied stories.

Listen, I get that the bl genre has it's issues, but getting on the forums and bashing people's art out of nowhere for comics you admit to not having read ain't a constructive way to criticize that. Often times the tropes (not seme/uke herr but rather "love interests on the cover cuddling") of a genre will be used in promo art bc thats what the readers will recognize. (Kinda like how lgbt creators use the lil flag stickers)

Talking about the genre's faults is fine, but you're going a but far calling out specific artists. (With an argument thats about your personal preference might I add.)

foxnflames 2020-10-29 15:04:28 UTC #40

If I’m in a marginalized group, the responsibility shouldn’t fall on me to represent everyone.

I don’t speak for all of them.

I can’t speak for all of them.

That’s too much of a burden to shoulder when people in the majority get by with (at times) mediocrity and do actual damage and no one bats an eye. You make one slip up when you’re on the “outside” and people are quick to cancel you