The mixed messages of BL

[DiegoPalacios]

[DiegoPalacios]

(anyway, if someone wants to continue discussing here is more than welcome)

[SeraphicMayin]

I'll be honest and say I just skimmed the first half and the gist of the conversation and I'll focus on OP's top post. I would normally lurk quietly but seeing as one of my comics is up there I feel like I have some skin in the game now. OTL Though I'd rather not. Posting is scary lately.

Anyway, a few points I'd like to make--- pretty much all of those top 10 are either Early Access (Community created comics, not imported NOR originals created with Tapas Studio) or a Tapas Original like Sharpe & Rabbit. (Forgive me if I'm incorrect but I know for certain the top five were community comics before they were picked up for Early Access opportunity, and they pretty much continue to be Creator driven and operate like a Community comic more than standard Premium comic.)

That said... Tapas doesn't pick and chose what rises to the top of popular (Idk how the algorithm works so I'm not going to speak to that). The Audience decides. Simply put, if you have a high rate of engagement with your audience, you'll rise. You'll rise if you have a good story and lots of content in said good story.

Tapas does however (in my observations, I'm speaking as myself here), pay attention to what the audience responds positively to and does their best to promote stories that the readers themselves have mentioned they want more of. I think it's kind disingenuous to believe that just cause something is promoted it gets popular, plenty of things highly promoted can flop. But things that are already gaining momentum and THEN promoted can grow exponentially more often than not.

And Finally, all I can do now is explain my thinking process on how I made the new cover for Bone's Tarot, as well as the story at large.

First, I go out of my way to try to dispense with stereotypical Seme/Uke personality/behavior dynamics cause yea, I have been a fan of Yaoi in my formative years. I know plenty about it and I know how the tropes can be useful markers of Genre (and if done badly, problematic. I get it.). I also know that I like subverting that. What's on the surface is rarely the real deal in this story.

Lately, I do crave more BIPOC stories cause I'm a POC. I also love BL and Crime Thrillers --which is why I made the comic in the first place. The comic was literally my chosen smorgasbord of story elements and aesthetics I crave wrapped into the best possible romance thriller I could write at present. [Also, there's no super-erotic content in my story cause...I don't wanna.]

Finally on the design of the cover itself. That was my attempt at marketing to my ideal audience.
First, I know my audience is going to be people like me (Least I'd like them to be): Those who are familiar with BL, like BL, like characters of color, and like romance. That's the focal point.
Second, Sue me, I love a height difference in the main couple. and cause it's my comic and I can do w/e I want, they have a height difference.
Third, I didn't want the shorter "uke" to be placed under the tol "seme" (which is a joke cause that character is the softest one in this whole series) compositionally, which is why my smaller dude has a dominant position in the arrangement. Again, my little attempt at subversion. It was largely made to satisfy Me. And I'm satisfied.

As for why the story is doing well, here's my theory: I'm writing a damn good plot. It's a duel romance and Crime Thriller with action in a Low Fantasy setting. I pitched it and was rejected cause I crossed too many genres together and it wasn't "BL" enough with a modern romance jive cause Fantasy is dominated by the isekai and female protagonist with romance. So i made the damn thing anyway. And it was good enough to garner attention from readers cause it's a good story. I planned ahead, made a buffer and was relentless in my 3x/week updates cause hey, more times I'm on Fresh, more chances I have right? There's no resting on laurals of oh its' a BL, people will just flock to it. That's not how it works.

I'm on hiatus for November so I've no doubt It'll fall down on the charts until I start my return from hiatus campaign.

[darthmongoose]

Well, that was a very civil conversation. If everyone makes an effort to find common ground, it can happen, good job, everyone!

I think the main takeaway from this thread is that... yeah, a lot of LGBTQ+ and BL creators don't necessarily like some of the problematic BL tropes any more than people who don't like BL do, and I think all of us creators on the site are keen to see Tapas put effort into focusing on community creations and promoting a broad variety of them!

[Phantomlight]

I love BL and love discussing it and don't mind reading other's opinions of it even if they aren't similar to my own opinions. I like getting a different perspective because I get to have those a-ha moments that make me realize something I missed. I understand people get passionate about things they love, a similar thing happens when people do a critique for The Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time for example xD But like everything, things have pros and cons and things that need working on. Our awareness of these tropes and stereotypes is a good sign. We can change things for the better by helping others acknowledge that these relationship dynamics for example aren't realistic. Of course it's only fiction or perhaps it is based on someone's relationship, but it's not good to generalize that this is how all m|m relationships are. And it's always great to have relationships that are out of the norm, things do feel like they are changing. I used to be okay with the dominant, submissive relationships, but as I got older, I found that I rather see different relationship dynamics. And I HAVE seen these kinds of works nowadays especially.

I have written and enjoyed works about BL for many years, but I have grown to understand the bad points and have learned along the way what I can personally do to see things that I favor. I labeled my work BL not only because my main couple is two m|m but also because I am aware of the negative connotations it has and I want to help change that bit by bit if I can. Of course, the mindset of the audience also contributes to all this as well. I have seen many comments on BL and even LGBT+ comics that have people saying disrespectful things, the whole "uke" and "seme" question, the eagerness to see sexual scenes, etc. And I also have seen that creators have reprimanded or called attention to those comments, which I think is great. I think everyone who is troubled by what they see is doing what they can and I really hope that things get more diverse in the BL community and the BL genre in general. Maybe one day the genre BL one day won't always be regarded as bad.

And, I will also say that I have read works I didn't agree with their relationships, their dynamic, etc, etc, but I can't say that the creators should make their works this way or that way. But in the same way that those dynamics became the norm and popular, I believe that BL works that can change the genre can also become the norm and popular, and I think there are ones that have!

[joannekwan]

Now, i wanna ask to BL creators, what are the elements that define BL and what are the differences with LGBTQ genre?

Getting back to the first question here,

TO ME, I write mxm stories, but I don't put them under the BL genre because I think the main audience consuming it on Tapas expects a certain level of fluff. And I don't really like writing fluff regardless of my characters' genders. I think there's also an expected artstyle: shiny, heavily anime/manga/webtoons inspired, clean: and not just clean for the artwork but the characters too. I've gotten a few comments expressing distaste for my characters' body hair. xD
While I don't have my stories under the BL genre, I will still have it as a series tag.

Another reason I keep my mxm stories in the Romance genre is I want to the Romance genre to stay diverse on Tapas? I don't want an exodus of same-sex/gender relationships fleeing it so that it only becomes het couples.

And as for LGBTQ+, like others have said, romance isn't always those stories' main focus. And the other letters are represented. I have LGBTQ+ as secondary genres for my works for the reasons listed above.

[DiegoPalacios]

(ran out of likes for today, but consider this reply as my like )

[domisotto]

I am writing the first BL story, and for me the important thing was to write to the genre expectations, so I asked for the common elements & the differences with LGBTQ section before writing. Despite browsing BL regularly (in novels), I do not have as good of a handle on what has the best chances in the genre. My favourite BL story is not doing well, which is a pity & I can’t put my finger on what tanks them

My biggest concerns before posting are that:

I am not using explicit scenes,

the drama is relatively low, and

there is a female character of prominence in one of the story parts who is cast in a favourable light.

Of this, the drama being on the calmer side is what worries me the most, as the other two I feel can be successful in BL if people invest in the two lovers.

I don’t expect a story to do well just because it has the MM leading couple. If it fails to meet the BL expectations, I will move it to SciFi rather than LGBTQ

[WillowTree]

I am not using explicit scenes,

Explicit scenes aren't necessary. I have some UST scenes, but there's never going to be an explicit sex scene in 'The Love of a Werewolf.'

there is a female character of prominence in one of the story parts who is cast in a favourable light.

That shouldn't be a problem either. If anything, I thought people were MORE annoyed when the women in Male/Male were all treated as awful/evil/bad/etc? I mean, at least for me that's a massive turn off when I start reading a new BL.

[domisotto]

I saw different takes on how NSFW BL has to be, so fingers crossed.

The second one is true for me as well, so, again, fingers crossed.

You do have a high-level drama which is awesome.

[DiegoPalacios]

I saw different takes on how NSFW BL has to be, so fingers crossed.

This always have confused me. Apparently people have different opinions on the subject, maybe you could make a poll or something

[WillowTree]

Yeah I enjoy the drama

I originally wrote this with the idea that no one except me and my friend/beta reader would ever see it so I went hard on the drama lol

[KRWright]

Apparently people have different opinions on the subject, maybe you could make a poll or something

Yeah maybe not though. I don't think a poll would be meaningful because a question like that has levels.

There's a space for gay erotica, or steamy romances, or even just a novel that has one NSFW scene right at the end, or none at all that could be amazing and wonderful and that everyone pretty much agrees is well done, then there could be all of those things that everyone says they hate and thus NSFW is purely fetishistic.

The whole point is: is it done respectfully? Even then, there's a whole sliding scale of problematic and what it even means to be respectful. Like most things around this topic, the beauty is in the nuance and often on a case by case basis.

[WillowTree]

This is much better written response than what I had down! My thoughts on it are just 'it depends on the story' but you said it much, much better that I was going to lol

[KRWright]

To take this structural, a company decides what it wants to uphold. Tapas has made itself a NSFW friendly platform (for the most part and as much as they are able to and still be on the app store etc). Thus Tapas has more steamy content than other sites, and that's okay, because a lot of it is also quite well done.

But also, this means that when Tapas signs steamy content, it's also saying it stands by whatever is in those NSFW scenes and that it's the direction and vision of the site. And I think that's part of the point you were making earlier @DiegoPalacios, and that is also where people get upset if they believe that the representation is harmful.

But that's also Tapas' acquisitions editor's problem to deal with and I'm sure that it's something that they're looking into.

[domisotto]

To be honest, I just hope that there is a room for any degree of steaminess.

[KRWright]

To be honest, I just hope that there is a room for any degree of steaminess.

In novels, you can have as many sets of genitals as you like and do whatever you want with them barring illegal activities according to guidelines. Comics, a bit less leeway.

[domisotto]

Absolutely no illegal activities, that’s for sure.

[Junohugger]

You're saying, some comics are good, some comics are bad. I wouldn't say thats a particularly politically incorrect thing to say, myself, but to each their own I suppose

[SeraphicMayin]

Of the three, you're right that the drama is the main concern.

I'm writing without any explicit scenes, and all the ladies I managed to squeeze into the plot (I wrote it extremely tightly so I wouldn't be tempted to expand the story), are all in a pleasant or neutral light as well.

That said, a story usually tanks, regardless of Genre, because the conflict doesn't have consequences or risks important to the protagonists. Even a less dramatic story can be poignant and meaningful if the conflict the protagonist undergoes is meaningful and life-changing for them. This is applicable to any story and is less about the surface qualities of content, but more on how well crafted the plot is. Genre just helps limit the scope so that creativity can flourish under the limitation.

Insofar as I know for BL, the only genre-adhering tropes you REALLY need is a MM leading couple (often the only romantic couple, but not necessarily), Romance plot or subplot, and ...well that's kind of it. BL is growing to be one of those really flexible genres that mix well with literally any other genre in my experience, and all the better for it.

I think, it's around there that it begins overlapping with LGBT+ storytelling when the BL couple that has all the visual aesthetic of a BL but the storytelling nuance of more LGBT+ stories. And yet, it's exactly those kinds of stories that have a chance to do well because by their nature, even if they start with a more stereotypical premise--if handled well in how the story is told, then it'll still be a good story.and I think BL readers who are well versed in old and new Yaoi and BL stories can appreciate new BL stories taking the familiar tropes and presenting them or subverting them in ways that are refreshing precisely because they avoid the problematic issues while still telling a Boys Love story.