The mixed messages of BL

[DiegoPalacios]

Exactly, that is my point. That is why is fair to call out anyone that claims to do that.

[KRWright]

However, if the author wants to avoid uke-seme dynamics, and avoid getting the couple stereotyped as "he is the man of the relationship and he is the woman" having one of them with more submisive body language and other with more dominant one, will give the wrong impression.

I dunno. Try to kiss or hug someone and someone might say that you were taking the dominant or submissive role depending on how high your arms were or your expression at the time but that is based on the viewer's assertion of heteronormativity surrounding what they view as feminine or masculine body language. You can really only tell by reading the content itself, not from the covers.

[DiegoPalacios]

Sure, gender roles are still in the collective subconscious. Guess is tricky to remove it from the mind of viewers and creators alike.

[KRWright]

Like let's look at heterosexual romance covers:

So those are the heterosexual ones (I tried to keep them modern as the ones from the past are a TRIP!)

Compare that to the covers up there and, er, they're pretty tame.

[foxnflames]

But when someone openly speaks about doing said representation, they choose to carry this burden and responsibility for better and for worse, and is fair to call them out if they don't practice what they preach.

The problem comes in when people insist that their work should be applied across the board, so to speak.

And someone may not choose to go “deep” in representation and have that character be a walking archetype of said representation. Which also applies to having marginalized characters in stories and they need to be a squeaky clean version as not to “offend”. They can’t be flawed or villainous without being demonized in some way.

[KRWright]

So really, if we're critiquing representation, which is all fair and good, then we should really be looking at engaging further with the content beyond what is on the cover. You should be analysing not just the plot of the story, but the characters and themes and actually engaging with it on a deeper level and working out what the author is trying to say or do with their work.

It's not as simple as going "OMG IT'S ALL PASTELS THEY'RE ALL THE SAME AND SOMETIMES THERE'S A TALL GUY AND A SMALL GUY" because... well... Small guys who fall in love with tall guys is a thing! Boys who all wear pastels and have kpop fashion and date each other is a thing! Couples who do magic or who fight crime is a thing.

I guess what we have to conclude in this thread is: you can only examine mixed messaging if the promotional material of the series does not match with the content of the series OR the creator does not get across their message due to two conflicting structural points in their work being mismatched.

[JoshRaid]

Okay, very few of these actually give off that impression. The Boyfriend and Crushed covers don't even depict them in a romantic manner. Save for the title of boyfriends, they could both just as easily be the covers of ensemble buddy comedy comics. Also, the apathetic boyfriends cover portrays them fully eye to eye without any dynamic shown between them.

[DiegoPalacios]

I guess what we have to conclude in this thread is: you can only examine mixed messaging if the promotional material of the series does not match with the content of the series OR the creator does not get across their message due to two conflicting structural points in their work being mismatched.

Of course. My point was about the mismatch of what BL creators say about the genre on the forums and what is communicated by Tapas.

Like that awfull twitter contest

[KRWright]

My point was about the mismatch of what BL creators say about the genre on the forums and what is communicated by Tapas

There have been issues with some imported content and some errors in marketing recently by Tapas, yes, but that's a structural issue with the company, rather than an issue with the genre or the individual creators themselves. I think this is something that people struggle with generally but... If you're not aiming at structures, you're just flailing and hurting people or generalising.

I think it would have been better to have started this thread asking for positive representations in BL, and the types of work that are intersectional between good rep, popularity and solid construction. Singling out certain works is never going to go down well unless there's a really big issue with it.

[DiegoPalacios]

There have been issues with some imported content and some errors in marketing recently by Tapas, yes, but that's a structural issue with the company, rather than an issue with the genre or the individual creators themselves. I think this is something that people struggle with generally but... If you're not aiming at structures, you're just flailing and hurting people or generalising.

I just pointed out where those generalizations were comming and how Tapas's mistakes have led to give the impression that said generalizations were true.

I didn't confirm or denied any of these.

I think it would have been better to have started this thread asking for positive representations in BL, and the types of work that are intersectional between good rep, popularity and solid construction. Singling out certain works is never going to go down well unless there's a really big issue with it.

This is actually a nice suggestion.....may make another topic for that one.

Also, again, i mentioned these were impressions based on Tapas's marketing.

[KRWright]

I just pointed out where those generalizations were comming and how Tapas's mistakes have led to give the impression that said generalizations were true.

Yeah I think we just don't agree that the examples given in this thread hold up with the point that Tapas is promoting harmful material. There are others that you might have had agreement with from the community, but it isn't those titles haha

[DiegoPalacios]

There are others that you might have had agreement with from the community, but it isn't those titles haha

This is comforting. Glad conversations about the topic are making a difference and leading to an improvement of the genre as a whole.

Criticism is not the same as bashing. As long as people here in Tapas are able to hold a civilized conversation without quickly jumping into accusations, the site as a whole can grow into a more positive community.

Now i gotta wonder how will Tapas will properly filter the korean imports to avoid any problematic content.

[Zaboem]

Ooooh @DiegoPalacios, you should have started this thread under a second account for deniability
-- through a VPN
-- after establishing an alibi
-- with a fake ID
-- with a profile pic of Guy Fawkes
-- and sign it with a P.S. saying that @uselessgoddess is sus.

[darthmongoose]

Now i gotta wonder how will Tapas will properly filter the korean imports to avoid any problematic content.

I think having clear company values and making sure multiple people are involved in reading through and vetting works would be a strong start. Not all these new aquisitions are bad (like personally, I'm loving "Soul Mates", it's so far been a pretty wholesome GL comic that feels like it fits well on the site).
It's doable if they're committed to it.

[RyBread]

As a bl writer, I’m just sitting here reading this thread like (‘o_o)

[DiegoPalacios]

replying here because i am out of likes

[DiegoPalacios]

The problem comes in when people insist that their work should be applied across the board, so to speak.

And someone may not choose to go “deep” in representation and have that character be a walking archetype of said representation. Which also applies to having marginalized characters in stories and they need to be a squeaky clean version as not to “offend”. They can’t be flawed or villainous without being demonized in some way.

an that is why representation is often an unrealistic standard.

[DiegoPalacios]

Was mostly a concern about some bad moves made by Tapas, and wondering about some genre distinctions.

[DiegoPalacios]

Serious reply: My goal here is a civil discussion. Didn't expect people to neccesarilly agree with me. If we can have a BL criticism topic without it getting closed, it is a step towards understanding and mutual respect on all the parts.

[KRWright]

I think that's what's happened here, but I think that the discussion has kind of drawn to a close in any case lol