The mixed messages of BL

domisotto 2020-10-29 21:01:53 UTC #102

I feel that LGBTQ section needs more complex themes involving the community than what I have or the main couple that goes beyond exclusive MM relationship.

As for drama, I tend to do plots that are just a little bit too ‘interesting’ vs ‘big drama’. And big drama is by far more successful on the net—and that’s one of the reasons some of the tropes always come back, because they have an easy identifiable emotional stakes.

NickRowler 2020-10-29 21:51:01 UTC #105

Pornography isn’t allowed on Tapas. My guess is they found your comment to be an off topic rant.

SleepingPoppy 2020-10-29 21:58:14 UTC #107

I always assumed there were more Own Voices publishing under the LGBTQ label..?

I don't think anyone's pretending to be anything. BL is the popular tag for MLM romance, so it makes sense that people would use that. Regardless of if the work is fetishistic or not. People using the popular language isn't deceitful.

NickRowler 2020-10-29 21:59:04 UTC #108

People usually use yaoi and yuri when talking about porn. This kind if content is not allowed in Tapas thus they can not hide within BL or GL or LGBT. It sort of sounded like you were calling BL, GL, and LGBT tagged stories to be porn.

DasIstWunderblyat 2020-10-29 21:59:15 UTC #109

KRWright 2020-10-29 21:59:27 UTC #110

How far back into fan culture we goin'? Because the origins of slash and the origins of BL are distinctly different and we are not going to write out the work of some amazingly progressive Star Trek fans who literally made a huge real-world impact out of this narrative, no we're not.

HGohwell 2020-10-29 22:00:54 UTC #111

While we're having a civil debate on this, I'd like a pose a genuine question with no ulterior motive or ill intent, this is a genuine question:

When does a dynamic become Uke/Seme?

For instance, if a male character is portrayed as feminine and submissive in the bedroom and is shorter and perhaps more feminine and more inexperienced than the partner, does that automatically make them a Uke? Even if it's only in the bedroom and this is a comic where the other half of the plot is about badass super heroes that sees him kicking all the ass but is also BL? And when does having a taller, more dominant, experience character become a Seme? Is that implying that all sub/dom dynamics are bad? Or characters must never be more feminine or more masculine than each other (please note this is a genuine complaint I have seen that by making one character more feminine and enjoying being submissive they have made it "het romance pretending to be gay"). Where is the line between healthy portrayal of real people and unhealthy dynamic that enforces negative sterotypes?

indagold 2020-10-29 22:02:48 UTC #112

I'm just gonna edit this post and see if the moderators do next. If my account gets banned over this edit, I have lost faith in tapas staff that this is enough to get me deleted off here.

KRWright 2020-10-29 22:04:04 UTC #113

Real talk: it's when other stereotypes are piled on top of each other, trope on trope, until it becomes offensive. It's why it's so nuanced as a conversation.

It's that old saying "I'll know it when I see it". When you're a person who is in that kind of relationship, or are used to reading own voices interpretations of those dynamics, you can just kind of tell when it's a stereotype rep rather than someone who has deeply engaged with what it actually means to be a femme gay man, etc.

KRWright 2020-10-29 22:07:05 UTC #114

What. Educate yourself.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021015113951/www.beyonddreamspress.com/history.htm/

((EDIT: The above link won't expand but it goes through the history of Kirk/Spock from the 1970s and its creation))

Whereas the history of BL starts in Japan, with completely different roots entirely.

DiegoPalacios 2020-10-29 22:08:15 UTC #115

@HGohwell

adding to what @KRWright said. The uke-seme issue in some cases reach to a point it becomes their prominent personality trait, which is........pretty offensive to say the least

SleepingPoppy 2020-10-29 22:08:38 UTC #116

Yeah, I think the problem is only with how ubiquitous it became. There's nothing wrong on an individual level with writing or enjoying this dynamic. Or thats my opinion on it. But it is a problem if/when characters are just boiled down if they're a top or a bottom. But a good story will have more than that, anyway.

But I think it sucks that the dynamic gets a bad wrap as a result if trying to bring more diversity to representation. I like top/bottom dynamics, I like them physically apparent, and I like it in a subtle BDSM sort if way.

Things are always more complex, and more subtle than we like to make them out to be.

HGohwell 2020-10-29 22:14:47 UTC #117

@SleepingPoppy @DiegoPalacios @KRWright

Thank you. I figured since it's such a big part of the conversation, that these Uke/Seme dynamics are part of the problem, it would be best to get some kind of clear idea what people considered to actually be that dynamic vs a "good" dynamic.

So, basically the summary is: if their position in the relationship becomes their defining personality trait. (Oh look, it's that write characters as characters rather than tropes piece of advice again, that's popping up everywhere, almost like it's good for writing.)

KRWright 2020-10-29 22:20:28 UTC #118

This is also a huge thing as well. Representation is always about portraying more than a monolithic experience. So if the only rep you get is uke/seme dynamics then that becomes a problem. You get real people refusing to come out because they get asked questions about their bedroom roles etc. or they've had to deal with RPF about them and their friend where everyone has been theorising their bedroom preferences etc. etc. It becomes a mess.

Write good characters, research everything, regularly speak to multiple people from the group you're trying to represent, and get a sensitivity reader.

Maps 2020-10-29 22:29:02 UTC #119

I want to preface this with how my ideas of these topics have come across so far from what I’ve read and what I assume to expect when I’m about to jump into a genre:

I always (personally) defined BL as more “shounen-ai” with maybe some small bits of sex. BL to me is an actual solid plot also being told outside of a gay relationship that is developing. So, there is a storyline that takes place outside of the characters’ blossoming romance. Usually, they feel like a fiction, or maybe less relatable than you can get from lgbtq+.

If I ever start a BL that mainly focuses on sex from the start and all the way through, it feels like a yaoi and maybe we need to find a way to categorize things as such. I can be quick to drop a “yaoi” BL if I’m searching for a story to support it. So if I come across a seme/uke office scandal, it’s likely I’m not sticking around.

LGBTQ+ stories feel similar to BL but sometimes come with more in depth societal themes about sexualities, identities, preferences, individuality, etc. Characters often seem more realistic and are involved in more raw and relatable stories that seem to come from experience. If there is a gay story in LGBTQ I’m prepared to think we’re focusing on a realistic love story. Maybe even some familial, social (or political) struggles, etc. involved.

BUT, this isn’t say there aren’t LGBTQ+ stories that have fiction and hardly focus on social or political themes, but just story telling with some kickass characters being represented. Some don’t even really give a shit to jump into the romance of it all. I’ve read those too. And lgbtq+ stories often seem to include many different types of broad relationships and identities, than just one that is the main focus.

So basically, from what I’ve read so far in each category, this is what I’ve sort of come to expect.

XiaoHeijun 2020-10-29 23:22:09 UTC #120

This is just my opinion as a writer who writes BL. To me, LGBTQ can never be BL because it just lacked the 'fantasy' that made BL... well, BL.

BL is a very broad 'category'. It can be purely fictional, a mere fantasy that doesn't need to conform with what a normal society should be. There can be a hint of what one should expect in normal society but by the end of a day, it is still a fiction. It can be a representation, but it will still be a fantasy. And just like any other fiction, as long as you can separate fiction and real life, you should be good.

As mentioned before, BL is a very broad category. In recent years, BL no longer just your typical 'romance with male pairs'. There are actually a ton of BL (novel, since I no longer read a lot of comics unless it was an adaptation of that novel) that even though the romance is still there, it is not central to the story. As you read through it, you would sometime forget that it is a BL story until either ML or MC is made a move again but it didn't change the fact that it is BL.

I can give you some sample in which, romance is merely a secondary genre in a BL.

Nurturing the Hero to Avoid Death (Isekai/Transmigration + Kingdom building + Romance?)
Rebirth of Supermodel (Entertainment Industry Journey + Rivalry + Romance?)
Counterattack of a White Lotus that was Reborn into an Apocalypse (Fantasy + Zombie apocalypse + romance)
Superstar Aspiration (Rebirth + Acting + Entertainment industry Journey + Romance)
God Level Summoner (Gaming + Esport + Rivalries + Romance)
Settling the Affairs of an Atrocious Noble.
Your Kingdom

Then again, these are all novel and not comics so maybe that's why they are different... or not.

In any case, just like any other form of fictions, BL is not for everyone. Creators are not responsible to make something that caters to ALL readers. It's readers responsibility to choose what they want to read what they don't want to read. If you don't like something, just ignore and continue with your own life.

meganebii 2020-10-30 02:32:59 UTC #121

almost everything on the right half of this screencap are from western LGBT creators who simply label their comics as BL. I havent read all of them, but boyfriends, apathetic bfs, and do you even witch all seem pretty wholesome from what ive read of them (although i only started that last one). And I havent read DaiMaou, but i read the other comic from that creator and they did an entire chapter on discussing harmful stereotypes in bl and calling out their own audience for being fetishizing. And whle i havent read bone's tarot or crushed, ive heard good things about them from my other lgbt friends.

I feel like... while, yes, some of this stuff (particularly the translated stuff) is problematic, its particularly limiting to queer creativity to glance at everything and label it automatically as 'bad'. Not to mention.... just because its a mlm couple, doesn't mean it HAS to be wholesome to be good queer rep. I hate stories like killing stalking, but only because they fetishize the abuse they portray because its gay, which is nasty. But if there was an accurate and well-written portrayal of an mlm relationship that WASNT fetishy, showed an unhealthy dynamic, and addressed the issues within it, what is wrong with that? Why can straight people get stories where relationships are shown fully with their flaws, but queer people are never allowed those stories?

I'm not a fan of BL as a genre, because of the stereotypes of it being mlm written by straight women as a fetish. which is why i labeled my comic with an mlm couple as 'LGBT' (not to mention it shows other identities and everything, and the romance isnt the center of it.) But if another queer person like me decides to label their mlm story as 'BL' who am I to judge them? If the story is good, it's good, and idrc what they label it as. It's just unfortunate it can get lumped in with the fetishy stuff.

I really think the only difference between an LGBT story with an mlm couple as focus and a BL story are.... what the author decided to label it as? really, thats it. Please judge these stories by their actual content and not their genre. Dont limit queer creativity

HGohwell 2020-10-30 02:57:48 UTC #122

I don't want to diminish your argument because I do know stories like this are out there but just because it was brought up early in the thread about this bit (I don't blame you for not seeing it, it's a bloody long thread)

And that this was basically a matter of it being mis-promoted, which is common not just in webcomic publishing (a lot of booktube talks about how books are essentially pushed to the wrong market by publishers because it's what's popular ect and then they're surprised when there's a negative backlash because that's not what it is).

As I said, I don't want to say that your arguments are invalid because of this, because, as I say, it absolutely does happen, I just wanted to make sure this bit of information was clear.

meganebii 2020-10-30 14:59:36 UTC #123

I did see the post, but i disagree with it. I have no idea how killing stalking was promoted, but as somebody who actually read a good chunk of the story myself looking for a thriller, i feel it was the story itself that does itself in this way. Its really apparent that once the author realized the audience was romanticizing/fetishizing the abuse because it was gay, they consciously decided to lean into it. That to me was particularly distasteful, to a point i had to drop it. Also, in the end the author said all this particularly whack stuff, about how one of the characters wasn't even gay, and like. i never got to the ending, but from what I've heard of it in reviews it was also really distasteful?

As I said, I think lgbt people should be allowed stories that arent necessarily wholesome. but bro i literally CANNOT defend ks at all its literally the worst example in the book of writing lgbt characters in a dark scenario, idc how it was promoted. This is coming from an lgbt person who legit tried to give this story a chance, went in w an open mind, and was honestly grossed out after reading a good portion of it.

Maps 2020-10-30 20:07:26 UTC #124

I made it through a few chapters until reading it honestly made me feel wrong. I’m pretty sure my face was distorted the whole time I gave it a chance. Maybe the author accomplished “psychological horror” because that’s what I was feeling

I will never understand the hype that surround KS.