The problem with popular visibility. ( A discussion of new way to be discovered )

[NanettesClouds]

Hey small-fry day-1 creator here to come give my 2 cents.

when I was uploading my minicomic I never felt like I was getting buried, sure I dont have 1000's of subscribers or anything but every time I updated I got new views and comments and subscribers, it's not like I was going un-noticed. Prior to posting my silly little minicmoic here I had basically 0 online attention except for from people who I knew IRL. The fact that I got any readers at all is a good sign for me.

Three years ago, it would take maybe 500 views to get into Trending/Popular; now it takes a few thousand

This was totally not the case for me - while I was updating my minicomic it got into trending several times, and none of my episodes have broken 500 views, the most views I've gotten on any page is 249. My minicomic is a weird trippy thing that barely falls into any of the genre tags, and it's definitely not BL. This was in February of this year. So unless they changed the algorythms with the new site update, I dont think it's as difficult to break into treding as you say it is.

I'm no success story like @JohnVincent is, but like, I certainly wasn't "getting burried".

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Why not making user space where they can pick up their own 'favorite' comic?

The "creator recomendations" program that came out of the Super Science Club sort-of achieves this, basically creators are encouraged to use their banner as an advertiesement for another comic. I dunno if that's quite what you have in mind, but it does the trick if you run a series.

IN GENERAL: the super science club thread covers a lot of the same ground that this thread does, and there are a lot of good ideas there about how to build an audience with the tools that we alread have available to us. (and a lot of long rants that I wrote that I dont entirely agree with anymore just a heads up)

[DaveStankoven]

Yes the current system has helped people and there seem to be a fair number that don't understand where I and the few others that have agreed with me are coming from but again I'm not trying to argue that the current system is flawed. I Don't think it is. I think the current system is great and has been wonderful for a large number of people.

I just think we are in a position to talk about additional tools. Great communities last long because they grow and develop to achieve the most versatile and functional environment. We have a wonderful set of site owners that listens and cares about their creators and fans.

The current everything can and should stay. Because it is great. I literally just want to spark potential growth in currently untapped markets of comics that are already available on this site. To give those great gems more opportunity.

If things are working for you already, then this topic isn't for you because you've found your niche and they've found you. This is for those that under current systems aren't noticed.

[NanettesClouds]

Agreed -there's always room for improvement, I think a lot of that improvement is currently on Staff's to-do-list as well.

I just wanted to chime in because it seemed like a lot of people are making things sound worse than they are, I dont think I found any particular niche for my comic or that the system is working better/worse for me than it is anyone else, but from the tone of the conversation it sounded like people were saying that the system was broken, and that's totally not the case.

I guess my point is that you dont have to make a BL/Gag a day/whatever genre is popular or have a pre-existing audience or something like that to get on to trending which is what a lot of people seem to like implying >_>

EDIT: For reference here's my minicomic since I keep bringing it up in case anyone is interested?

[silencelibrarian]

as much as I agree that discoverability here is a little cluncky,
have anyone ever thought that a large percentage of that 30k comics constantly updating might be junk??

even netflix, youtube, hulu has alot of junk,
and honestly, as a consumer, I got turned off by too many choices,
my brain just shuts down, and motivate me to go do something else if I'm presented with too many choices, which on a glimpse looks like theres more garbage than good stuff

I think that's the reason why the algorithm try to limit the amount of exposure to everything available,

although like a section of what recently updated would be good for reader to browse through

[DaveStankoven]

Yes there is junk and again, I don't want to change the current algorithm. I want to add additional outlets for comics to be featured for visibility.

[LordVincent]

Honestly I think the best course of action would be to make the fresh section visible as thumbnails on the front page. It's a great thing but people forget that it's there.

I know I suggested they pick either fresh or new and noteworthy back when the site made the name change and all, but that was because the "fresh" section they did have on the site served the same purpose as new and noteworthy rather than the actual fresh section.

A very small recommendation feed that shows up when you are done reading a series could work too. Replace the "read next" thing that shows other comics you are subbes to with recommendations. But no big recommendations thing on the site, no weird profile changes, we don't want the site to be too cluttered. If it's unorganized, small creators don't benefit because noone benefits.

Aside from this, I don't think much could be done. Tapas isn't at a place where they can hire someone to make a special recommendations feed of smaller comics yet. The Daily Snack probably already takes up enough time.

[UzukiCheverie]

I'd personally love to see some sort of activity-based algorithm here, much like with Youtube (though hopefully not as shitty, but is that asking too much lol? I mean come on Youtube, I watched ONE snake bite video, that doesn't mean that's the only thing I want to watch for the rest of my life lol)

I feel like that sort of algorithm would also help a lot for those who still believe that the front page is oversaturated with the same genre(s) (as that's been an ongoing issue for quite some time now. I don't think I need to mention it, you guys know what I'm talking about lol). It could also help solve that reader decay issue that a lot of longform story comics face, and was highlighted in the Science Club (an issue that I'm just starting to gradually push through myself, and I know a lot of longform creators are STILL trying to overcome). Enjoy this comic? You might enjoy [comic], [comic], [comic].

I mean, having the reading list suggestions at the bottom makes sense but... it still doesn't really make sense when you can still access it from your profile AND your dropdown dashboard.

[demthorshie]

Great discussion! I'd be totally down for seeing a new way of getting lesser known comics discovered more easily on the site. I've also noticed that there is a wall of visibility where comics can really only be noticed if they've just been updated. I feel like the only way for small time comics on Tapastic to get noticed right now is through frequent updates and social media. The fresh section is great, but I think it would be great if it were more visible on the front page. And as someone else mentioned above, maybe a section for each genre's latest comic pages.

[elixiadragmire]

oh boy,

first of i wish to debunk the hard=sucess myth. because thats toxic. its more hard work + luck = maybe? telling someone who's worked hard for years/decades that there lack of success is because they didnt want it enough is cruel.

Hard work is an asset to success but not the key, hard work, skills, intelligence and LUCK, with all of those combined your of a higher chance to succeed but still not guaranteed. I know people don't like hearing that but unfortunately, from life experiences, it's very true. A great example is simply looking at the politics in the western world right now. But for an artistic example look at Van Gogh.

Sorry for the rant but I hate to see people justifying inequality anywhere and this hits close to home since it's regarding the design world.

Anyway, back on topic. Yes I do think more can be done for fairer exposure and personal LOVE the idea of a section that has TOP INSERT GENRE HERE on the first page similar to line Webtoons

[LordVincent]

What hits hard for me is when people sum all your hard work up to "they're just lucky" or "it's because they sold themselves and made insert popular genre here".

[elixiadragmire]

That's an unfortunate hang up, but the landscape isn't that black and white. You can't have only hard work or only luck to suceed, or only skill. You need a combination of them to succeed and to continue your success.
Reducing someone sucess to ONE thing (luck/hard work) is toxic in general and completely untrue.

People too often assume success = luck or hard work, no success = no hard work. Never assume, it's makes an ass out of u and me.

Filter bubble in our life's make it far too easy to overlook the full picture when all it shows is the highlight reel

[GoldenPlume]

What would be great is if Tapas could code something where it automatically makes suggested series based on a reader's preferences. Say for example you like robot based series. If you have 4 or 5 robot series in your library, Tapas then suggests robot series that you haven't read. A push could go out once a week similar to a Daily Snack but instead it lists the last five updates for series based on your preferences that you haven't yet read.

Bloop-bleep-bloop! Hey reader, here are five robot series that updated this week that we know you would just LOVE to read. -Staff

The nice thing about this is because its completely automated staff doesn't have to put in any resources into it other than the initial coding. It also helps solve the situation of discover ability because now readers who will naturally enjoy your series will eventually find it because of their preferences.

Another way to do preferences, rather than library based, is to have some some sort of section where readers can go in and click boxes for what they prefer. I like this this this and this. Then Tapas automatically starts making recommendations based on those preferences. Once a reader reads that series, it won't be recommended again for a while, that way even small series at the "bottom of the pile" will eventually rise to the top because everyone else in front of them has been recommended.

[elixiadragmire]

I think that could work by using tags OR the genres they're classified in.

[GoldenPlume]

OR the genres

Probably genres. Every series selects their main genre (which is how it is now) and then sub-genres up to say 5.

Readers select sub-genres up to 5.

The hamsters in the servers then do the matchmaking, turn the wheel, and push out a weekly notification.

[NanettesClouds]

I thought they removed the sub-genre feature?

[trinkettrancemusic]

Algorithms based on more detailed sub-genres is a great idea. I'm sure I'm missing out on a ton of great stories because I neglect the main genre the creator felt was the closest fit.

[DaveStankoven]

Great ideas! Keep them coming!

[Louistrations]

How about a "random series" button? It's a simple idea that would be fairly easy to implement (probably). I think Crunchyroll has this, along with many other sites. Could be limited to sites that updated within 24 hours. Would be very nice for those long boring lunch breaks!

Or you know, allow paid promotion...? Tapas would make a lot of money from allowing people to buy those single comic-specific panels on the homepage. Or perhaps I'm just crazy.

[LordVincent]

I'm not sure I like the idea of paid promotion since it can contribute to creating a divide between the rich and the poor on the site...

[Louistrations]

I suppose that's true, I know I wouldn't be able to afford it. I know people that work on their comics as their only profession and it would be most beneficial for them, instead of just hoping to be noticed.

Or perhaps replace those low paying and repeated google ads shown below comics with paid comic ads? Or allow people to earn coins via the app by viewing comics? I miss earning coins since the video ads dried up.