The Red Herring of the Forums: “User Entitlement” vs “The Art/Writing Debate”

[punkarsenic]

The hucksters are just going to learn the new lingo...and use it to try and blend in.

ill be frank, i dont believe that bc i believe the hucksters are honestly too stupid and stubborn to listen. but maybe im underestimating them

that said... when does an open call for collaboration become solicitation for spec work? id say if we want to change the way ppl call for collaboration rule number one HAS to be 'you are not finding someone to work for you. you do not come into this asking a stranger (or a friend) to draw your brainchild. you must have completely equal control over the story and decision making, and if at any point you try to move into a 'boss' role the artist has the right to leave you without a pot to piss in unless you cough up a wage'

though yeah, idk how convinced i am with guiding the hucksters mainly bc when you show that level of entitlement and ignorance about collaboration i dont think youre worth working with full stop

also, ppl should listen to this. its a rly great discussion on the subject:

http://dirtyoldladies.libsyn.com/episode-45-spec-work

the interesting thing is among the 'make my comic for me ill pay you when i get big' kind of spec work, they also talk about competitions such as the webtoons competition (or more infamously tokyo pop) as spec work that shouldnt be tolerated, so thats interesting. but the tl;dr is:

do not make a complete piece of work for someone for free, on the promise that you might get compensation later if they like it - dont do it for some bozo on a forum, and dont do it for disney

[therealbereth]

I think I've now read through all the topics that originated in that one person's/troll's weird thread, and...

I feel like all of us have been given the runaround by one toxic person. So thanks for this thread, @Jenny-Toons, it's an eye-opener.

What I can also observe in this forum is, however, how everyone is dedicated to clear up any misunderstandings, and honestly, I have never seen an environment quite so healthy. I've only been active on the forums for a little bit over a week now, but I already feel like everything and anything can be discussed here. Respectfully if sometimes passionate, because we're all passionate about what we do, of course. But if two people clash, there's always at least one person that clears up any misunderstandings before it gets worse.

And that's simply amazing to me.

Maybe my perspective as a forum-newbie is of worth to you, maybe it isn't, but I feel like sharing it anyway. And that alone means a lot, because I have seen my share of "friendly" forums who turned out to be nothing but a nice facade with toxic mechanisms in the background. And I've been severely burned by them.

Here, I feel like the community as a whole is dedicated to keeping the peace real. Like @skicoak said in one of the threads that sprang from that one red herring: discord can be a healthy and necessary thing. The forums I mentioned? Open discord was taboo. Never doubt the admins—openly. Never raise a word of criticism, be nice, but shut up and don't think for yourself how things could be better for the community as a whole. Don't raise anyone's ire or you will be run out with pitchforks to "keep the peace".

So, as someone quite new to all this here, I just want to say: thanks for making real conversations possible, and for discussing something in depth that would have festered in other forums, only to drive a wedge between artists and writers (or other groups who sometimes struggle to fully understand the other's perspective).

[Nail]

They’re asking an artist or a writer to work for them for free. Key words are “work for”, not “work with”. They don’t provide room for the writer or artist to make any changes. No, they want them to bring their idea to life and that’s it. Which, by that logic, should mean their writer/artist should be getting paid. Which means it should be a paid collab, not unpaid.

That sound quite like me! To be hones, I can often behave like a complete asshole while remaining completelly clueles about it. And, I guess, most of my collab requests reflect this fact. But at the same time I've grown up to be so protective about my ideas, and work on them alone, that partially I'm almost always glad, that no one had responded. Go figure!

[charliesackett]

Whenever I encounter people asking me to draw their passion project for free, I give them the analogy of a plumber. Would you demand a plumber come into your house and fix your shit for free?
Frankly the main issue is they don't understand how business works. You wouldn't open a bakery and demand that your newly hired baker pay for the oven you had to install. You'd understand that to have a bakery you need to buy one.
If it's YOUR project, you need to take financial responsibility for it. I have my own projects I can do for free, I don't need to take on someone else's baby.
You need to have faith that you will make a return and not just put financial burden on those you want to hire. You need to accept that it takes overhead to do these things, and you need to do the work of learning how to make that money back. Or just do it all yourself. Like with a plumber, you'll probably find out quickly why people hire professionals vs do it themselves.

[Nail]

IDK, but I heard that only sith deals in absolutes...

[QueenofBabyLoon]

I trust myself 150% to do plumbing work, though I am not a plumber. I trust myself 150% to do electric work, though I am not an electrician. I might die, absolutely, but that is a risk I am willing to take. I come from a community that decided, when under sanctions and unable to get oil, to modify their cars so they ran on propane (yes, you've read that right, you can modify your car to run on propane - what are the risks? Just explosions; and how stupid is that, turning off the oil supply to a country but still exporting propane?!).

However, when it comes to visual arts … There is no way I would trust myself to as much as come near Adobe Photoshop. It would implode into my computer, explode onto my face, whatever. But I am also poop poor (not piss poor, poop poor - the next level). What I do? Creative Commons with attribution. I've hacked the system.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

The Rule of Two applied to visual artists and writers? Don't give this forum ideas
It might end up as a bloodbath … or rather, Inkbath.

[Jenny-Toons]

But at the same time, you've also posting more than just collabs around the forums. You've interacted with people, you have published work on Tapas, so a lot of us know you're serious about what you do and enjoy it. Like, from my perspective, you're chill.

In all honesty, this was a 3am rant, and I was kinda half-asleep and irritable (which is a bad combo for posting threads ) And I do have strong feelings on this, but I don't want to have this thread be the end all, be all to how people do collabs.

After all, even some people who have a good presence do some of the traits I've noticed in these collab pitchs. Some people have trouble with wording and miscommunications happen. Moreover, some users just are that ignorant as to what it means to ask for free work and the implication. They're new new to this, and that's fine.

I don't want to come off as saying that "if you do any of these, you're an ass". But, with the way these types of collabs pop up so often, and the way some of the users respond is less than polite tones (that banned user is just an extreme example), I felt it needed to be said.

I just don't like the idea of writers and artists going toe to toe with each other because of these very threads. It ain't something I like to see because I know that these users do not make up the writers and artists on here. I know that, and I know a fair number of others know that.

We already have enough people trying to take advantage of us or say what we do isn't that important. We shouldn't have to end up turning on each other along with that.

[Nail]

Yes, I see. To be hones, I was only glancing above all this topic, cause, mainly it all reminds of how my parents usually arguing, and honestly I have had enough of it in my childhood
And as some certain characters... I believe their wievs on writers/artists relationshipa is only one of the flowers that blossom on a tree whose roots lay much, muuuch deeper than named issue. I've been there myself: life sucks, you can't handle the pressure, and eventually your outrage bursts out wherever it happens. I'm not saying it's rigth. I'm just saying - it's life.

[charliesackett]

If that works for you and everyone's happy then all the power to you.
I'm just frustrated at the perpetual societal devaluation of my trade and the prevalent notion that I shouldn't expect to make money from services rendered.

[QueenofBabyLoon]

You are 100% right! You offer a service, and like every service, it should be paid.
Visual arts take time. Satisfying a customer requires diplomacy and some foresight (a freakin' sixth sense, really).
I am not quite sure why, throughout history, the arts in general have been so devalued. Even during the Renaissance, most artists had to rely on the good will of patrons, waiting for the next commission that may never come. Authors were victimized by editors (if ever an editor wished to publish them).
It is time for that to change, absolutely. When something is worth requesting, then it is worth paying for as well. I see a lot of graphic designers on Reddit complaining how businesses ask them for free designs in exchange of "exposure". For exposure to become viable, these businesses should be working with millions of other business. None of the people who come to buy themselves apples at your grocery store will ask who the designer behind some advertisement in your store is.
I really don't know what is wrong with this world, but it is all very, very depressing.

[Maps]

I have my own projects I can do for free, I don't need to take on someone else's baby.

That’s my mindset on the matter! Lol

[375]

I so stan on this. Like honestly, if you're doing a collab- its called a collaboration for a reason. Not you draw this, you write this. That's paid work. Collab's should be fun, making friends and editing scenes together to make the story work.

[keii4ii]

Very well said! I would like to add to one of your points, however:

They’re asking an artist or a writer to work for them for free. Key words are “work for”, not “work with”. They don’t provide room for the writer or artist to make any changes. No, they want them to bring their idea to life and that’s it. Which, by that logic, should mean their writer/artist should be getting paid. Which means it should be a paid collab, not unpaid.

Every now and then, I do see weird attitude from writers looking for artists to work with. They're looking for a co-creator, someone who believes in their vision as much as they do. Which is not a problem....... except when they think it's "unfair" that an artist wouldn't give them a chance.

A while ago, someone linked this oldish article on another comic creator forum. Here's what I replied back then. I still stand by what I said.

That entire section containing this...

"Let’s just call a spade a spade—what’s happening now is basically the poor robbing the poor.

The reason artists get so mad when writers don’t want to pay up is because too many of them are relying on us to help them pay their bills. Writers do not have the same kind of money as comic book publishers and do we really want to create a system where only the people who can afford to stay in the game are able to make their voices heard?

If you’re working on an indie writer’s work then you need to realize that doing so makes you an indie artist. If indie writers don’t get paid until a sale is made or a book is picked up or a Kickstarter goal is realized, then why should indie artists expect the same?

Comic book writers take financial risks for their art and for their careers. Is it really asking that much for artists to help shoulder some of that risk every now and then?"

...seems to stem from a fundamental misunderstanding.

The brainparent of a project must pay up. If I want to hire a writer to help me fix MY story (so like, an editor), I'm the one who has to pay up. I'm the brainparent. I'm the one who really, really wants the project to come to life. Doesn't matter that the project is indie.

Hell, artists pay other artists all the time, most common example being a flatter. We don't go "this is an indie project. I'm an artist and I don't pay myself. So why should my flatter get paid?"

ETA: sounds to me like he's writing expectations about a true teammate, a business partner, rather than a hired hand. A true teammate situation can and does happen, but such a person is going to be FAR more difficult to find -- especially one who actually sticks around! The fact is, hired hands are the norm, so that's what one should expect IMO.

tl;dr Excellent points all around. But sometimes, "I want someone to work with" can still be poisoned with entitlement complex! DX

[amortelito]

I have ranted in the past about moochers and I wished that in that thread I had made it clearer that I AM NOT AGAINST PEOPLE SEEKING FOR UNPAID COLLABS. As you said is a matter of attitude and showing that the person has a real project and is not only asking for free labor. I have seen very reasonable requests that I would have taken if I had the time.

I remember a very interesting comment questioning that if the artist also contributes to the writing, we can say that the artist is the one doing most of the work. In my opinion, giving some ideas and corrections is not the same as elaborate the whole concept and coherent storylines. I do think good writing has an equivalency to good drawing. I think is a fair exchange.

I really don't want to contribute to the perception that we must go into every "unpaid collab" post to correct" them, hate on them or tell writers that their exchange is not good enough. Some Unpaid Collab post are hilarious, not gonna lie. but at this point, I think that for me is better to ignore them.

[borzoiteeth]

There are nice people here. Nice, sweet people that I watched in these forums be surprised that you don't have to do plot/inking/colouring all in one day! The thought of buying a notebook to jot sketch/ideas until you can get to a comp to finalize it to be an amazing concept!

Jenny-Toons is not exaggerating that we have people here that are immensely ignorant of the arts. Fans inspired to want to get deeper into a medium they love but having no idea what they are getting into. We need to remember we were all there at one point (I say we but really just point fingers at me).

When I first joined here I was stunned by the amount of posts that do not show proof of concept or even a link of past work examples. Nothing about guesstimating page count or time investment. Since we get these topics so often... Would it be ridiculous to create a new pinned topic about how to properly ask for a collab partner (or hirey)? Like the helpful pop up thing that comes up when you are creating a post but when "collab" and such are typed the pinned topic is highlighted.

I think establishing one would help cut down on misunderstandings. Something we can all link to instead of repeating the song and dance. People who are serious about wanting their work to exist will realise they can't be vague about their pitch. Getting the requirements together will also help them understand what they are asking of themselves, not just their future partner.

[graveweaver]

I think the lack of knowledge if the work required is, like, a huge factor. I get comments all the time on my comic of kids going "OMG PLEASE AUTHOR MAKE AN ANIME!!!" and Im like, what? That isnt even remotely feasible. If I worked full time on making my own anime Id probably be able to draw 20 frames a week, which is like, 1 second lmao.

But then I remember when I was a kid, I thought Naruto was all animated by one guy. I literally didnt have any point of comparison or scope of just how much goddamn work is involved.

[borzoiteeth]

Ohhhhhh I've had to help animation students in the past and even being in the damn field they always ALWAYS overestimated themselves. I'd try my best to be gentle and remind them that even they formed a team (which, at best can only grab 1-5 others if you are lucky), with the time constraints at hand they at best had 5 minutes to tell their story. Either take a skin flake of your magnum opus to play with or drop it entirely.

...almost every single one ignored the advice and surprise, their projects incomplete by the end of the time frame. (feel free to imagine me in the background, flipping light-tables)

[minerrale]

There is one, made by @silverraven0 and as complete as possible! It's even pinned XD
Here, have a look: https://forums.tapas.io/t/how-to-make-a-good-collaboration-or-partnership-offer-guide

[borzoiteeth]

Its even pinned! How did I miss this‽

ooof, just when even I thought I was getting a hold of how this forum worked. If this is pinned that means somewhere in some setting its at the top of the page. brb going to figure out whaaat OTZ