The watercooler: a place to chat

[skicoak]

because I am slow and I need to learn to cut corners, I just don't know how to do it

I feel that. I feel fairly confident in my abilities to use a lot of block of black in the art but then I also have some psychological tic that makes me get lost on stupid amounts of attention to detail on textural things like wood grain.

You ever Colletta someone else's script? Just go...I'm not drawing all these boats.

[Kann]

So...the question is...How often do you Vince Colletta your own work? Or Colletta someone else's script when you draw it?

My sketches are pretty rough so it's more like I add the details when I'm doing the lines. I'm messy but fast and I live by "It's not perfect, it's finished" rule.

I do get the frustration the pencillers had from Coletta's inks, but sometimes you gotta cut some corners to get the work done on time.

[Azifri]

Lol he even removed an entire character from the background

---

I Vince Coletta before the penciling even starts, during the character design stage. If you draw everything so minimalist you don't have to cut corners later

About scrip, I did cut my own script a bit during some of the early chapters and I'm still regretting it. Not doing that again.

[LCT_m_a_d]

@skicoak
That's a problem I have with a lot of the direction comic-art influence is going. It's either draw overly simple, or draw faster. I've seen quite a few comics where the artist decided to use less color or simpler lines strictly because their audience couldn't wait longer for updates. It's becoming less about creative art improvement and more about trying to create a profitable business. I'm a bit of a dinosaur/Fine Artist, so I'm in no way saying that it's wrong.

@BSmatic
We won't talk about that age old problem I have... but I agree 100% my art is very hard to read.
I am fundamentally a bad artist but I think I've adopted a lot of tricks that makes it look "interesting". Hopefully after a couple years of foundational practice I'll be able to spot most of those issues before it's already posted.

@Kelheor
I like your thin-line/color combo as-is without a lot of blacks in the foreground and subject. I wonder if you divide the panels into areas you can completely black out where there's a lot of negative space. That way you only have to work on a section of the drawing that you enjoy fleshing out.

[skicoak]

I do get the frustration the pencillers had from Coletta's inks, but sometimes you gotta cut some corners to get the work done on time.

That's one of the core hypocrisies of Marvel at that time...they had Kirby drawing 4-5 books a month and then gave him grief for being "late". Then assign inkers to butcher the pages he spent so much time on.

Lol he even removed an entire character from the background

And he did it ALL the time! I lost track of the link but there was a whole site devoted to the crap he did.

I've seen quite a few comics where the artist decided to use less color or simpler lines strictly because their audience couldn't wait longer for updates.

I've been pondering lately the balance of time spent drawing to read time on individual panels. Some of my establishing shots take days, most readers likely scroll past them in milliseconds.

[LCT_m_a_d]

I imagine its very low online. Not because of you or your quality but because many online comics tends to attract a different type of audience.

It's probably much more time in printed media since the audience (I would guess) has a higher attention span and observational interest. I personally tend to read hardcopy literature more thoughtfully and appreciative than something online.

[Kelheor]

Some of my establishing shots take days, most readers likely scroll past them in milliseconds.

Yeah, sometimes my writer literally have to put these words in my brain by screaming. It's really easy to get lost sitting and drawing a million of freaking small houses or 30 students in a room Well what can I do if I genuinely consider all that important

@LCT_m_a_d I guess a lot of my problems come from the lack of experience and pure blindness when I want to learn something from the good comic makers. Like you know, read someone's comic closer and find out what makes this panel or that panel good - I simply cannot do it. Just like I cannot make a good layout by myself without my writer, I see everything as a cartoon in my head, but I cannot push that "pause" button in the right place to make a right panel
And I really know nothing about negative space

[skicoak]

I imagine its very low online. Not because of you or your quality but because many online comics tends to attract a different type of audience.

Which is why I am debating whether the payoff is worth it.

Forgive me @Kelheor for using your artwork instead of mine....but I'm so humble I can't use my own.

Just a lovely panel that established so much world building ...
But most people probably scrolled past it without pause because it didn't have any text to make them stop and read.

Is it worth the effort they put in it?

[Kelheor]

Must I say my writer told me not to draw all these windows? But yeah, this is one of those "how do I cut these fucking corners", if without those windows the buildings look ugly AF. But I'm not a good background artist, duh.
But yeah, I will agree that most people who read online probably don't look as closely?.. It's hard for me to judge, since I am a sucker for detailed art (Berserk manga enters the chat) and I notice everything

[Azifri]

This may be wishful thinking, but I don't think you have to necessarily sacrifice quality to be faster.

I don't think simplification is bad if you know the basics of what you are doing. For example, instead of gradients, if you know how shadows work you can use cel shading and it may look as good as a more detailed shading. Same with clothing folds, you can simplify them if you have a clear mental image of them. With details, if you hint them properly the brain can usually complete the idea.
At least that's the impression I get when I see these minimalist drawings from pro artists.

Please note, that I'm in no case saying that I know the basics xD

[LCT_m_a_d]

Strictly speaking as a businessman, the ROI is usually NOT worth adding any more detail than necessary.
If the extra effort leads to a learned skill/idea, as a fineartist I would say YES for longterm reasons.

Time is more important than money but even time isn't the most important asset in my opinion.

@Azifri
I agree completely. If you know how to draw something at a fundamental representation it's okay to minimize if you know what techniques you can emphasis and leave out while creating the impression that 90% of the audience would assume. But cutting corners for an experienced artist can be just as hard as an inexperienced artist learning the fundamentals I would garner to say.
Cutting corners I feel like is a technique that takes practice ironically.

[rajillustration]

I've been pondering lately the balance of time spent drawing to read time on individual panels. Some of my establishing shots take days, most readers likely scroll past them in milliseconds.

YES. THIS. As someone who was once doing a very super-rendered comic that was entirely painterly, and then dropped it to work on a simplified comic, I feel this sentiment deep in my bones.

Thing is, I'm sort of going back to details in some ways. There really is a magical balance place.

[TAMAnnoying]

This is why a lot of people do time tests where they try to get as many lines down as possible in a short amount of time. (Like 10 to 30 mins) practicing like this helps you learn to only draw the lines that are nessassary so you can can learn be detailed but also fast.

[skicoak]

YES. THIS. As someone who was once doing a very super-rendered comic that was entirely painterly, and then dropped it to work on a simplified comic, I feel this sentiment deep in my bones.

It'd be a neat diagnostic tool if we could see how long readers spent on average looking/reading each panel.

[aqua03]

Anyone have any tips on good thumbnailing? because as I work on thumbnailing my one shot comic, I've noticed that my thumbnails tend to look rushed and crude even by the standards of quick and dirty thumbnails.

Thanks for the help.

[skicoak]

Anyone have any tips on good thumbnailing?

Be careless with the hammer while woodworking.

[aqua03]

So it's okay that they kinda look like bad stick figures if I'm thumbnailing?

[AmataLenna]

Don't worry too much about how thumbnails look. They're supposed to be rather crude and fast. As long as you can decipher it for later use. My thumbnails barely register as stick people. They look like runes at best.

[LCT_m_a_d]

If you're talking about sketch thumbnails I would practice gestural drawings. They tend to translate to really good thumbnails.

Check out this thread. some people do some awesome practice work that might give a little context.
https://forums.tapas.io/t/art-studies-exercises?source_topic_id=21392

[aqua03]

@AmataLenna @LCT_m_a_d

Ah, neat. Thanks for the reassurance on that end. I think I should practice some gesture drawings more some time as well. Been meaning to do more of them.