Thoughts on SAI?

Kelty 2015-07-15 07:03:43 UTC #41

it's literally a computer program dude calm the hell down

i got a spooky scary story for the lot of you: paper. pencil. real life. real skill. overcoming shortcomings on your own instead of having a computer do it for you and never actually improving.

epiale 2015-07-15 07:04:03 UTC #42

Sai does absolutely have a line and a curve tool, and both work very well, just throwing that out there. ,':y

Like, I even linked to several circle tutorials that make use of them earlier, haha.

Kelty 2015-07-15 07:06:24 UTC #43

also SAI has a line tool and like a huge majority of the stuff you say it lacks.

AnnaLandin 2015-07-15 07:13:35 UTC #44

I'm fairly calm, and also not a dude.

Here's another spooky story for you: I've been drawing all my life, and have, though hard work, acquired artistic skills that I am quite proud of. I've faced my artistic limitations, and I have worked hard to overcome them - with pencil, paper and real life skills. It used to be I couldn't draw people in profile, and avoided drawing houses like the plague - but now I don't, because I've worked hard to learn. 99% of my comic is drawn without tool-assisted perspective, because most of the time, I don't need it.

And I still think perspective-tools are a useful thing to have. Did you know, using perspective-tools can be a nice first step to help people wrap their heads around the rules of perspective, which can be hard for newbies to learn and understand? Did you know, it's perfectly possible to start out using perspective tools, and through doing so, begin to learn how to do it freehand?

It is perfectly possible to make comics in SAI. And it is perfectly possible to draw amazing things in SAI. I'm not denying this. All I'm saying is that Manga Studio, as a software, has certain advantages that SAI doesn't. That's my entire point.

@epiale In that case, you're working with a more up-to-date version of SAI than I am. If the newer versions have line-tools, that's great!

I'm now going to stop posting in this thread, because we're clearly not going to agree on anything.

Kelty 2015-07-15 07:17:06 UTC #45

oh wow so special do you want an award

also it's in literally the first version of SAI. We're not going to agree because you don't know anything about the program and insist that some other program is better, which doesn't even matter because once you learn a program you can use it as efficiently as your paint-by-numbers comic making program.

AnnaLandin 2015-07-15 07:34:51 UTC #46

One final post in this thread, and then I'm really out of here, as it seems pointless to keep going after this.

No. You're the one who brought up the point of having real artistic skills - I thought it might be relevant to mention that I have them.

1.) I just opened my version of SAI, and dug through every menu available to me, and I cannot find a proper line-tool anywhere, nor any curve tools. So either I am literally blind, or I am working with a version of SAI that does not have a line tool, or a curve-tool. It is entirely possible that my version is so old that it is still a beta-version. If newer versions of SAI does have line/curve tools, that's great, and means it is a less limited program than it used to be! In that case, I'm was wrong on this point, and fully acknowledge that. Congrats, you won this point!

2.) My point has never been that it isn't possible to use SAI efficiently, or that it isn't possible to draw great things in it. My point has, throughout this discussion, been that Manga Studio is more specifically geared towards making comics, and is therefore easier to use to make comics.

3.) Manga Studio is not a "paint-by-numbers" program. There is no paint-by-numbers program, unless you are literally cutting and pasting pieces of other people's artwork. What Manga Studio DOES have is a set of tools that make comics-creation an easier process. It has panelling-tools that make creating and adjusting the size and shape of panels easier. It has tools that make the creation of speechbubbles easier. It has a native text-tool. And so on. But here's the kicker - you don't have to use them if you won't want to. As I said, I rarely use the perspective tool. You can draw comics in Manga Studio without ever touching any of those tools - but if you want to, they're there! THAT is why I think Manga Studio has advantages over SAI when it comes to making comics.

There. I'm done.

joannekwan 2015-07-15 07:36:05 UTC #47

I'll just put in my two cents.
I've seen people do amazing things in SAI, I've seen people do amazing things in Photoshop, I've seen amazing things come from all sorts of programs. It's all just a matter of what you're comfortable using and practicing using that program. That's why free 30 day trials are great! Try out all the programs if you want!
For me, I started with the Adobe creative suite in high school, it's what I'm used to. I never even heard about SAI until college when my friend was using it (she's great by the way). But I'm an old fart and am stuck in my ways so I'll be using Photoshop until something forces me to try another program, since I also enjoy the photo-editing capabilities it has and I like photography. I just hate how Adobe is doing a subscription based thing now. What the hell is wrong with purchasing a program once and having it forever, goddammit?

Anyway, bottom line is: no program is perfect, but they're all pretty good or else people wouldn't be using them. Find what works for you and roll with it!

GlanceReviver 2015-07-15 09:31:04 UTC #48

I've tried to switch to Manga Studio a few times, and I have a couple problems with it due to the lower capacity of my computer, and the size of my screen. I work on a toshiba tablet PC with wacom integration, so it draws very nice but the screen is only 13."

SAI is very nice because it is easy to use without accessing the keyboard (which my convertible tablet PC doesn't do in tablet mode except by virtual keyboard). Stuff like zoom and rotate it a one-touch click instead of having to hit plus or minus and then zoom in or out. I can work with just one window column open for the most part.

Problem that occurs in Manga Studio is that there are multiple toolbars and windows for everything, and it creates new layer sets automatically for just about everything it does. Just having panels and stuff cut properly and trying to use the perspective grid, I had like 30+ layers already and I'm navigating through this tiny little window, it's really frustrating.

And seems like with Manga Studio, drawing never feels quite as precise or smooth as with SAI, although that might be my settings or limitations of my tablet software, IDK.

Anyway, due to those issues I still only use Manga Studio for the tools only it has, like screentone. If I had a 21" or larger cintiq or something that might be different.

@joannekwan I found the adobe subscriptions weird at first too, but in operation they are a lot cheaper since I can pay a small fee each month instead of $600 up front and then needing to paying for upgrades whenever new ones come out anyway.

ghostnxs 2015-07-15 10:16:43 UTC #49

Opps my comment wasnt directed towards you i was quoting you.

Zanreo 2015-07-15 12:48:24 UTC #50

The line tool does exist but it's only on "linework" layers

It might not have a "line tool" on regular layers but you can draw lines by holding down Shift and clicking in the direction you want the line to go

Luie 2015-07-26 00:32:05 UTC #51

I've been using Sai for a while. I ended up buying it and giving my young artist sister a copy of my software license so she could use it as well ( I'm fantastically cheapo, but she loved it.). For comics, the only drawback I found is that it doesn't have all the nifty effects that other programs have and it doesn't have kewl circle shapes. It also doesn't have text, but I've had no problem adding text using Paint.net, which is another free program. Adding a layer over my comic page and adding in text works out just fine. When adding "art-text" (the kind of text, mainly sound effects, that is integrated into the page, like behind a character or in an odd shape) can be added by copying text from Paint.net and adding it to a new layer above your comic in Sai, then using Sai's tools to shape the text whatever way you like. I use Paint.net to get the fonts and text tools, then simply add the text to a layer in Sai and go from there. But adding text can be as simple as adding them over your page in Paint.net.

So yeah, Sai has a few drawbacks, but I love using it and it's been easy to find loopholes around the things it can't do.

kanisgir 2015-07-26 02:43:42 UTC #52

I don't have a paragraph of why its great but I do love it if it had the text tool like on photoshop along with photoshops select tool and many prushes...and rectangle tool (and circle tool which both lack) it would be fantastic to us I use both sai and photoshop so I got both worlds

serenitysquirrel 2015-07-26 22:01:43 UTC #53

Going to respond to the original post. Had this big comparison on programs and such and bleh. In the end, it's really up to you and the work-space you're most comfortable with!

My first suggestion is to go download the trials to the programs everyone is talking about here: Sai, Photoshop, Manga Studio. I think they're all for a month so you have time to really play with them and see what you like. Head over to youtube as well. There's alot of tutorials and nifty tips to help you explore them even better and maybe learn of new features you never knew.

As per the following, some of it is opinion and some of it concerns price. Seeing that you're on a budget, it's certainly something to think about!

You started with a mention on Paint Tool Sai. This one costs, currently, $43.00 and it certainly is a powerhouse of painterly bliss. I used to use it a lot for art pieces because on the upside it has this wonderful water-paint tool to blend things together so dreamy. It's ink lines are nice and smooth as well. (more on that in the photoshop section) On the downside, dealing with adding typed text sucks royal. Great for arting, a pain in the butt for comicing. This is why it's collecting dust on my hard drive.

For Comics with Paint Tool Sai, it's a good idea to snag something like Photoshop. I think on the creative cloud it is 10$ a month for this industry standard. PS is is used by professionals and can do so much more than just ad text. Oh my goodness, I use it so often to process the raw files from my nikon into wonderful sharp photographic wonder. On the art side, however, the brushes are extremely customization, downloadable, and if you're wanting effects it's the absolute king. The reason I don't make my comics in it is a simple one --- they're hard to ink and the blending sucks. If you're wanting an oil painting effect, than who cares. If you're wanting to smear two colors into buttery bliss, then you better look elsewhere. With the inking, I also had a good deal of issue with staggering on the ends of my strokes. Not a big thing, but drives me up the wall. Ended up purchasing some added brushes from (I'll find his name if you need) and it helped a little. But note --- you can very well make a comic completely with photoshop and be pretty darn good.

Lastly we have Manga Studio which retails at $47.99 for the standard version. So, this is what I ended up going with for my comic. It lacks the watercolor tool of Sai and doesn't have the fun filters/text tools of Photoshop. What it does have is a whole bunch of other optional tools that can help you streamline your work. Just because something is easier, doesn't make it cheating. There is a prospective tool (Rumor has it they are adding that to Sai eventually) as well as a poser (to make 3-d human references. I think there's a free program for this online.) and even more tricks. It has the smooth lines and ease of Sai, as well as a very very customization set of menus. Actually, to me, it's like Sai if it was designed for making comics. I miss my watercolor brush, but the blendy ones have come through so well. Sai also has a text balloon feature that allows you to make your balloons with a flick of a brush. Unfortunately, there is only one style of balloon (with either thought or say tail which you can add how you like). It's got several different kinds of color pallets to help you blend and pick more easily. I would love to eventually see it get more text options for greater, well, options. To make spookier/wavier Oooohhh sound effects and the like which I do still need Photoshop for. It also has a huge preset load of screen-tones for manga which are fairly easy to use for those who wish.

Honestly, I'm happy with all three programs for their different uses. For comics specifically, I have to pick Manga Studio as it's just made for it while still carrying the blendy and inky art tools of Sai that Photoshop lacked for me. It helps keep me in order and allows me to spend less time switching between programs and more time actually producing the product I want.

Having more tools is not lazy. Having more options is never a bad thing. What matters is how you use them, and the story you create. It matters that you are enjoying the process of making what you are and are having fun with it. What you use in the end is up to you and you need to be happy with it. It may not be the 'right' way or the 'standard' but if it works and makes you happy, go for it. I work in a print shop and have had people make birthday cards in Microsoft Excel of all things but somehow, they made it work. I have no idea what sort of comic you're making.

Download the trials. Use the crap out of all of them while you have 'em and see what is going to make you the happiest, and work for you the best. There's alot of discussion in this thread so far with alot of opinions, but also alot of decent advice. Explore and choose what you want. And realize that you're not limited to one thing forever and should never let yourself be. Never stop exploring and learning new programs, techniques, etc.

Better stop now. Going into weird inspirational pep-talk mode.