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djourner
Apr '21

Ok, so @Yulek created two topics pertaining to 'deal makers' and 'deal brakers' (thanks for that, love the oportunity to rant xD). But it got me thinking, into an interesting way we can go one step up from that. So i wanted to create a topic specifically to take a good dissection at tropes.

As i pointed out in one of my posts, tropes might be overdone and boring sometimes, but they are at the core of it a tool in your arsenal, you should never ignore them because you don't like them, but rather try and think of way to improve them.
So let's do just that... Pick a trope, any trope, and discuss it... But here is the caveat, bring examples of both GOOD and BAD of that trope. Show us why you think that trope sucks and who made it worse for you, but also try and find the good version of it...
Also be gentle in your critique, you never know who might read.

This might be trick, so let me give you guys my trop, the bad and the good.
Harems

So right off the bad we have a hot topic, as a harem is a concept that is very popular and constantly appears in fiction (and not just manga).
A harem, for those of you who don't know, it's show or series that has one character surrounded by characters of the opposite gender that he is supposed to 'chose the one and only'... Though I could talk about the trope of the one and only in an off itself...
A lot of people hate harems, for good reasons, the idea of having just a bunch of love interests sounds coniving to say the least, but believe it or not there is a way to do it right!
But Left focus on Harem and who did it bad for now.

SWORD ART ONLINE (SAO for short) / Also spoilers /
SAO is a show I hate for so many reasons i can't even count... But let's again focus on the worst part of it for me... The harem.
So right of the bat Kirito (the MC of this show) is a perfect protag, he is absolutely infalible, good at absolutely everything inside his videogame world, a pro-level programer and hacker, and generally edgy boy with a 'dark knight' vibe to him.
At the start we are introduced to Asuna, his 'one and only' and obvious main romantic interest, a sweet princess (literaly as she is the daughter of a rich CEO). But also kind of a tsundere.
The problem lies in everyone else... 90% of the shows cast is composed of women, all of which have the absolute mad hots for kirito because each of them has 1 episode with him to develop their non-existent character traits before they recongnize he loves Asuna and doesn't think of them that way.
Then... They proceed to hang around him and continuously throw themselves at him every now and again, hoping for a chance to get lucky with him... He never straigt up tells them no, and they sort of gravitate around his boring personality for no reason other being in merchandise.
This is seriously it, there is nothing else that is interesting about this harem, the girls are not competing for his affection and he has no reason to go for anyone other than asuna, but rather than move on with their lives they hang around him because of how 'awesome' he is.
It is the most boring harem in existence... Literally nothing is interesting about them... They have no chemistry with him and no interaction among themselves other than gushing for Kirito... WHy is this harem even a thing?!

Ok... Now that my hate is out of my system, let's discuss someone that did it right.
Ore wo suki nano wa omae dake ka yo / Also spoiler /
This show, other than being gold for romantic comedy lovers, has what is to me one of the best representations of a harem... While simultaneously being one of the 'worst'
So this show right off the bat starts with characters being rather normal, out protag, Kisaragi, hears the love declarations of two of his best friends (Sakura and Hinata) and has to decide which one... which one he is going to help that is, because neither of them like him and instead want his help to get with his best friend Ooga.
Right of the bat the idea begins strong, but is made even stronger by the fact that Kisaragi is a complete asshole, he actually wants the harem for himself and figured the way to do that is to help one of his friends get with Ooga so that he can get the rejected one... IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE WORST RIGHT?
Yeah... And he gets severly punished for it, when one girl from his school (Sanshokuin) reveals she is a stalker, his stalker to be precise, and she uses that info to blackmail him into dating her... YEAH for real... Thing is this is made right by the fact that our stalker girl actually likes the protag, with all of his flaws, she doesn't want the nice guy he pretends to be, she wants the dirty liar who is willing to lie and cheat to get what he wants... AND SHE WANTS TO HELP HIM!
All this might sound terrible, but as you watch the show you realize there is more to all of these characters than meets the eye, due to how perceptive he is Kisaragi can be a good guy when he wants to, Sakura and Hinata are not just doorknobs and eventually find out and fight him on it... His best friend Ooga is actually an asshole too, just a good looking one
And this is just the starting premise... Eventually as we explore these flawed characters they evolve and it does turn into a harem, but a positive one, one in which everyone is perfectly aware of the hidden agendas of everyone in the room and still get involved because they want to, not because they were deceived... AND one in which characters interact among themselves and not with just the protag. (sanshokuin and the girls become best friends, ooga has some sweet moments once his bad guy arc ends,) Its a genuine fun harem to watch.

So hopefully this topic gets you guys thinking and convinces you tropes are not inherently bad... Maybe, look at that trope you hate and try and find something that did it good, be it a show, a game, a comic, novel or any form of art.
So, what you guys think? Shall we talk tropes?

Also, maybe this is too generic, so I could change the name of the topic and focus on one trope alone so that other people can make other threads about their favorite tropes... What you guys think?

cherrystark
Apr '21

This is interesting. The first trope that popped in my head is the "Cinderella" trope as I call it. For those not familiar with the fairytale, it focuses on the protagonist who has lived a hard life falling in love with their Prince Charming who takes them away from their bad situation.

BAD: I can't think of any titles, but how I see it most often played is that our young "perfect" protagonist meets her love interest almost always right out of high school and is whisked into a royal or (quasi-royal) relationship.

I have a hard time with this because often, the protagonist isn't a fully developed character. She's beautiful, yet plain. She lives with near constant harassment and has no long-lasting effects. People love her almost immediately, etc. I know there has been talk about the rule of teenage royals in history, but the protagonist doesn't get the chance to be a kid and grow up on their own before they're in a committed relationship and a parent within a year or two. This trope also becomes a poor enemies to lovers when I'm supposed to believe this toxic, bickering couple is supposed to be "goals".

*I also have a hard time with this one if the protagonist has a "victim" mentality and the author doesn't see the need of getting them help.

GOOD: "Ella Enchanted". I've loved this book since I was a little girl. What I love best about the book is that Ella is a developed character. You are several chapters into the book before you realize it's a Cinderella story. She's witty and sarcastic, but also knows when to hold her tongue. She also has an active role in her story and is trying to break the curse and save the prince. She and the prince also have a pretty decent relationship built on friendship and not instalove. All of the build-up makes the resolution satisfying.

I think the crux of a good Cinderella story is solid character work and development. Let your characters be active. They might not be able to change their circumstances, like Ella's servant period, but show us the humanity! Show us characters being happy. I think the trope is well done when it's time for the Prince figure to swoop in, the prince isn't solving any of the MC's problems; the MC should find a solution on their own. Ella found a solution to her problem on her own and the prince was there for the "cuddles" and support.

djourner
Apr '21

@cherrystark}
From the description that seems like a damn good subversion of that trope.
I also dislike the 'damsel in distress' that plagues romances... Sure it's ok to have a character help them realize what's wrong and what needs to change, but the MC should handle their own issues and solve their own problems.

MovieNut14
Apr '21

As I've stated on a similar thread, I cannot get behind the "character A is incapable of telling character B how they feel about them" trope. Like, you can shoot the breeze with them just fine but when it comes to actual matters of the hearts, you freeze up? I'll make an exception if character A is terrible with speaking their mind in general (i.e., they have social anxiety) but it's a trope I'd be more than happy with never seeing utilized again. (I have similar opinions on the "character B is amazingly oblivious to how character A moons over them" trope.)

As for a trope I like? Hm...I am an absolute sucker for the insecure love interest trope and its variants. I think it's a good way of showing how love isn't this panacea that the media always makes it out to be; people can still have their doubts, especially if they've come from a troubled past.

CuzWhyNot
Apr '21

I personally don't like the "unwanted but needs mate trope" as I call it.
It's pretty much when, the next in line for alpha for example, has to find their mate before they can take their place.
Bad
They only want to meet their mate for their own purposes, and essentially their mindset is mate and take place.
Good
Usually there is some good character development when people use these tropes.

Kaydreamer
Apr '21

Oooh, I'm going to go with my favourite, 'Enemies to Lovers'. I absolutely adore this shipping dynamic, I've a bit of a thing for villains, and it's compelling to watch a person go through the struggle of reforming themselves. It's even more compelling if you toss romantic tension into the mix.

Bad
I don't have an example from popular media off the top of my head, but we all can think of how this trope can go wrong.The villain character not having to work through their problems, or not acknowledging them. The love interest being too quick to forgive. (Understandable if they're established beforehand as an extremely forgiving person, but that's often not that case.)

Good
I thought She-Ra did this excellently with Catra. It paced a little fast for me, because they hadn't very many episodes left to play with, but the writers did an excellent job of showing her hit a convincing rock bottom and decide to start making better choices, even if it was hard. Adora supported her, though also made it clear that she expected her to behave better, and was delighted when she saw Catra trying to do just that. It was beautiful.

And while this ship never made it to canon status, Zuko and Katara from Avatar are a good example as well.

cherrystark
Apr '21

This one! I have trouble with this one especially when our "enemies" don't have anything to bound over. They're forced into a couple dynamic and instantly start fighting and often their fighting has no reason.

A good example I just found for Enemies to Lovers is Hodges and Wendy from CSI. They never advance to a full couple relationship but it's a satisfying slow burn. They act like grade schoolers with a crush and I adore it.

djourner
Apr '21
Kaydreamer

This is a hard trope to find 'bad' examples. I scoured the recesses of my mind but couldn't find one I consider bad. Mostly because a lot of these 'enemies to lovers' happen in the ship spectrum... Therefore don't affect the plot.
The ones that don't are not technically enemies to lovers as the relationship falls apart by design and not accidentaly, so it's more akin to a 'false start' than a real 'enemies to lovers gone rotten'

The only 'eh' example I could find was 'maou maoyuu yuusha'.
In the anime series the 'Hero' and the 'Demon Lord' decide to work together to save the world and they are implied to be in a relationship...
The only downside... They never do anything, ever... There is no relationship to speak off, they are doing separate things with the same goal in mind, but meet so rarely in the anime their relationship could barely be called a relationship.
Readers of the manga might say... 'but in the manga-" Now as much as that is a valid argument, a Show should be able to stand on it's two legs and as Is, the romance leg of that anime is a really short stub that fails to balance the plot.

But that's it... It's just an example of mediocre, not one of bad.
Maybe someone else can think of one, but I don't engage much with romance, so it's hard to conjure up a good 'bad example'

childofbooks
Apr '21

The boy that is extremely dense and does not notice the girl's romantic feelings, or simply ignores, even when she tries too hard.

This type of Eren Yeager behavior sometimes makes me wanna punch the character in the face and there are a lot other examples for that.

But everything can become enjoyable when there's a good sense of humour involved, and Gekkan Shoujo no Nozaki-kun is a perfect example. The struggle and everything else is so fun to read that I don't even want the characters to get together, the manga shall go on forever!

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Apr '21

Age gap paired with power disparity between the lead couple.

I'll talk about Phantom Thread, as that movie does well in presenting the negative aspects and then twisting it to work out in the end. No major spoilers to follow, but I do give a very general summary of the plot from beginning to end.

So the story is about a young woman who ends up working as an assistant to a celebrated fashion designer, a man much older than her. He's very persnickety and often talks down to her (as he does to most everyone) and does order her around due to the nature of their working relationship. They get closer but not in a typical romantic way as you'd see in most other romances. The designer does not become less controlling, BUT the young woman steps up her game and figures out a way to handle his particular demeanor. They end up in an overall strange relationship, but it works out for the both of them and they are happy.

djourner
Apr '21

I can safely say I usually don't like relationships that start with a 'power disparity'. Especially when the power is abused to sort of coerce or manipulate the others into dating... Even if they do end up liking it.
Age gap is usually not a concern for me if they are both adults, and I even have a bit of an age gap between my trio. But I understand why that is a concern for some people... Especially when people are like 'just turned 18'... You don't magically acquire all the knowledge and life experience you need to handle a relationship because you turned 18, and sometimes it feels like that number is dropped just for legal reasons.
I do however like a difference in experiences in relationship, it can be a powerful story telling tool when a character develops feelings over teaching and watchign the other improve and grow.

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Apr '21

Oh for sure!
I think what works about Phantom Thread is that the fashion designer isn't really covetous over his assistant, unlike so many of the modern CEO stories. The designer doesn't make any inappropriate sexual advances and was more obsessed with his work than anything. He actually comes off as under the aro/ace spectrum for me. It would totally go south if he was lecherous though!

cherrystark
Apr '21

Another example that I think works well with the age disparity is in "My Fair Lady". I didn't really like how the movie ended since I wasn't too familiar with the world of the story. But when I learned that while Eliza and Professor Higgins did have some feelings for each other, there was no real expectation of marriage or any romantic relationship. She could stay with him, gain an education, and have access to all the things she never would have access to at the first of the film. Her other suitor, while handsome, had no money and would expect Eliza to care for him. It would be repeating the cycle she's lived with her whole life.

joannekwan(ง ˙o˙)ว here to help~
Apr '21

Yes I think that's a major element in a lot of age/power disparity relationships that can make it work or at least make it more palatable to an audience. The younger/less-powerful person shouldn't be forced or obligated into a relationship with the other and chooses to do so of their own will.

Which is something I employ in my own story.