Apr 2017
249 / 303
May 2017
Sep 2018
popsiclestick
May '17
nolongerusetheforum

Look, my guy, as creators, we owe you nothing. We work our socks off to produce fresh new content for basically no compensation (unless you count the couple of pennies from ads/tips lmao).
If we didn't do that, there wouldn't be anything for readers TO read. I'm all for listening to both sides of the story but please first remove your entitled attitude towards the content produced on this site.
We're not being selfish. This is our content, that we sacrificed our time to create. We have every right to be suspicious of any shady looking clauses that may affect our rights regarding what we do with our own art.
I don't wanna be a salty sue, but please think about those who are producing the content you read, for free.

LordVincent
May '17

Tapas made multiple notifications of the ToS change, including a yellow banner at the top of the main page that stated ToS had been changed, asking everyone to read it through. They did not brush this under the rug.

They didn't intend to tell people this though, that was a miscommunication and a misunderstanding type of deal.
As I said, if they had malicious intent they would have been quick to strike the most popular comics with that part of the ToS BEFORE it got backlash, and they wouldn't have made a forum thread and a notification at the top of the site. They would have made a small notification somewhere at the bottom to use as an excuse. They never did this, which should be a sign to everyone that there was never malicious intent and we all need to calm down.

Devika
May '17
Yoon

Good morning everyone. I find that the core of this issue is still unaddressed, namely what exactly we're discussing here. Removing the TOS has taken away the sword dangling above our collective head, so I hope the discussion can be a bit calmer now, but questions remain.

So here I have some questions that if answered in non-legalese I think would clear up a lot smoke, because there are so many assumptions floating around right now. There are those seeing this as a safe bargaining chip, and there are those that see a potential threat to their IP, both based on wildly different interpretations of the loosely worded clause.

So here goes:

  1. Who was affected? Premium posters? Creators above a certain sub count? Every comic poster on the site?
  2. Under what circumstances were #1 affected? When selling rights to a third party? When self-publishing? When selling merchandise?
  3. What exactly did you want these people (#1) to do under these circumstances (#2)?
  4. Last, but perhaps the most important: ROFR or ROFO? You described a "right of first offer" (negotiate in good faith with tapas first) but titled it as "right of first refusal" (tapas gets the right to contracts first). There is a massive difference between these, and a lot of artists, especially on twitter, are alarmed because they assume it's, as the title implied, a ROFR, which is greatly restrictive. Those in favor of the TOS seem to go by the description, which leans towards a ROFO, which is much less restrictive as there is no obligation to enter a contract with tapas first. The dissonance between the title and description makes for a very wonky legal basis, and I think most people are very uncomfortable with that - as should tapas be, because it doesn't help them either!

Again, that the TOS have been deleted doesn't eliminate these questions, because it's not just about the clause itself, but tapas' intentions. Was it an IP grab, or a failure to write good TOS that everyone understands?

jmhenry
May '17
1
PotooGryphon

The sad truth is that mods aren't just like everyone else where the forums are concerned. You may not be directly connected to tapas, but you all still represent its community. When you guys act unprofessionally, it sticks out more and makes the community look bad.

^^^ This is exactly why Uzuki's comment, while his own, is still damaging to the site and the community in general. It's a bit of an uncomfortable truth, but for the average person, perception matters more than truth. It doesn't matter that mods are unpaid volunteers to people looking at this from the outside, all they see when they see a mod acting unprofessionally, is more reason to stay away from tapas. You guys have a greater impact on the site's/community's image than you realize.

LordVincent
May '17

The moderators do become a bit of a "face" for tapas in instances like this, yes. However I feel that they have been polite considering the levels of shit that has been thrown in this thread.
Each and every single individual on twitter is also responsible to, as adults, check facts and circumstances before spreading things assuming them to be truth. They are not doing this. That, in my opinion, makes them unprofessional and immature.

It's high school tactics. Taking things out of context, twisting them and spreading them as a blown up rumor is shit you'd expect to se teenagers doing. Not rational adults trying to be professional creators.

I understand that people had concerns. So did I when I first heard of this thing. But if you have concerns, the best course of action is to stop, think, consider the circumstances and facts in a reasonable manner, and NOT just air out all your assumptions on twitter. This would have been acceptable if what you were spreading were confirmed facts. It wasn't and still isn't. You are spreading false information and hurting tapas creators in the process.

I understand that you want to protect people who work hard on their comics, but by spreading false information you are hurting the exact people that you are trying to protect. This is why you need to factcheck and be patient before spreading rumors.

jmhenry
May '17
1

Unfortunately, not every adult is a philosopher, eager to think first and act later, as much as I'd like to see it. That's just the nature of human beings, there's an unfortunate tendency to react first.(like I said: Perception<<<< Truth )

Most folks posting on social media aren't worried about looking professional, especially if it's their personal account. Unlike forum mods, individual people only represent themselves, there's not much you can do about how they respond to things.

BubooSenchan
May '17

Also I would like for Tapastic to fix the front page in pc, as other creators and me say (it's a little too much)
I like @JohnVincent idea of:

fleetinginfinity
May '17
LordVincent

Notifications on the site are not enough when a large percentage of users only use Tapastic as a mirror. A major change like that to the Terms of Service deserved at least an e-mail, as that's the equivalent of written communication documenting the change in this digital age, and I checked, there was not one. So weeks ago when other people were worried about this, I didn't know. The moment someone showed it in a Facebook group yesterday was the first I heard about it.

I'm glad to see the clause is gone, but notifications on a site are not enough for a Terms of Service change.

azureXtwilight
May '17

I just think that in order to avoid a falling out like this, before they do something like this again and add more clauses, they should notify people before hands, see what the majority of users would react?

UzukiCheverie
May '17
1

Okay guys, the discussion is just completely off-topic now. A lot of us, myself included, haven't gotten a chance to stop, breathe, and collect our bearings since yesterday, so I'm gonna lock this thread for a bit so we can do just that. After a few hours, I'll open it again, and HOPEFULLY the second attempt will go smoother. For now though, there's really nothing left to discuss as the situation has been resolved; I don't want y'all to feel like I'm barring your voice, but we're sorta just mulling around in a circlejerk, which isn't good for anyone lol

Go on out there and enjoy your Friday <3

closed May 19, '17

michaelsonSenior Editor in Chief, here to help you
May '17
NanettesClouds

For now, we feel that we need to really reflect on the spirit of the clause and see what creators are comfortable with and until then we won't be implementing this offer.

We hope to expand the editorial and content team with new members that are more community focused. This will entail creating community events and more open dialogue in the future.

As for the transgressions during the Comic Panda iteration, almost all of that occurred prior to my arrival at the company. To the best of my knowledge, the first iteration of Comic Panda was never intended to be public facing. The site was under what is known as an alpha launch, which basically means that it was meant to test out the theory of the site and some of the basic functionality, kind of like a proof of product. To better populate the site and test with live data, I believe the content team at the time wrongfully used actual comics without permission. These were not monetized, and meant specifically to show early investors early concepts of the site.

Of course, all of those transgressions go against the ethos of Tapas, as we've always championed creators' rights and freedoms while publishing on the platform. And as you've mentioned, have performed DMCA, and other take downs on behalf of creators.

The staffers during that time are no longer with Tapas.

During the time in which the TOS was updated to include to the Right of First Refusal, the staff at no point enforced or sought out to enforce the clause to interfere with any creators.

Our original intent was to make competitive offers to creators or introduce them to our various partners to help, whether it was in regards to the production and distribution of merchandise, printing, etc.

I, unfortunately, cannot comment on the ROFR or ROFO clarification as I, personally, don't have the legalese to properly explain. But I will ask a fellow staffer to look into it and bring some clarification.

We will be revisiting our methodology in how we deploy our messaging in regards to TOS updates.

When the TOS was updated, we sent a desktop notification, front page ribbon (located above the spotlight section) which required dismissal, in-app pop-up as well as social media and forum posts. Of course, this does not guarantee the visibility of the TOS updates, so we will try out best to improve upon this.

We do small focus groups for our updates, but will hopefully expand this in the future.

There are a few comments that have derailed the discussion that I'll be archiving from this topic.

Please refrain from attacking one another, and please keep a cordial decorum.

I understand everyone's frustrations with the recent turn of events, and we promise that we are listening to everyone's feedback and are trying to make better and more informed decisions.

opened May 19, '17

donathinfrye
May '17
michaelson

Why would Tapas have inserted the Right of First Refusal clause into the Terms of Service, rather than reached out to creators that it was interested in making an offer to, or offer advice to?

For a lot of folks who have raised their voices on this issue, it's the inability to reconcile what you're saying with what logic and experience dictate that lingers. For me, at the very least, that's the unanswered question.

michaelsonSenior Editor in Chief, here to help you
May '17

We had hoped that this was a scalable solution to our over 23,000 creators.

Of course, as many have mentioned, a Right of First Refusal does not belong in the terms of service of an open publishing platform, especially at the start of the relationship with the creator.

NagashiKhan
May '17

Whoof, that's almost a scary thing to hear! But in a way it makes sense, there's nothing wrong with refection in the aim to improve.

For an honest question that first answer almost sounds defensive, which makes me think maybe you're short on patience? =P It's okay Michael, you don't have to stroke anyone's ego or candy coat things, be honest. Neither of these answers actually answers her questions,

which actually makes for more frustration. If the questions were answered directly, I assure you it'd have been more effective in assuaging concerns. ^^ We're artists with integrity Michael, we can handle the truth. =D However, you do answer her last question with an honest answer and that really makes me happy, even though that answer is "I don't know, I'll get someone to clarify for you". If you addressed all the questions this way, that'd be great. You guys have stated your intentions a good number of times, I don't think there's much confusion that that's your statement for intention. =P

Heck to the yes.

I can almost see you rolling your eyes typing this out, hahahaha! I saw the notification but I dismissed it because I trust Tapas, so I didn't think I needed to bother checking. But I do agree, for something like this, an email would be a much more effective manner of communication.

It's good to hear directly from a dev team member, man. Thanks for doing what you can to communicate. I hope you or someone else can more directly and clearly answer @Devika's questions though, because I really am still curious as to the precise answers to those- it's the details of this clause that made it the monster it was/is.

michaelsonSenior Editor in Chief, here to help you
May '17

Hm, I felt like I had answered the questions, maybe I'm misunderstanding the question? I tried to outline that no one was affected directly by the TOS updates in terms of enforcement and that our goal was not to affect sales to a third party, self-publishing, etc.

Could you clarify?

BubooSenchan
May '17

Something that kind of bother me is how the popular comics are now at the end, do someday they will return to be on the top?
I feel like tapas is forgetting the popular creators who have worked really hard to be where they are and have bring a lot of traffic to this amazing site.

NanettesClouds
May '17

from what I undrstand they shuffle the categories around every now and then, I think it's done randomly?

Also I think this is the first time I've ever seen someone ask for the popular comics to get more exposure :V

michaelsonSenior Editor in Chief, here to help you
May '17
BubooSenchan

We're still experimenting with the front page in terms of placement, but don't fret, we'll likely move POPULAR towards the top and re-shift TRENDING a couple of times in the near future to see how that impacts user behavior. We'll also be experimenting with the algorithms some more in order to get a more diverse mix of series to be displayed.

You'd be surprised by how many requests we get for that.