Visibility on Tapas

[DokiDokiTsuna]

There's a saying that goes: "God helps those who help themselves", which I don't always agree with because it tends to get thrown around by libertarians and people who disagree with free healthcare, but I think in this case, it's relevant.

This is a bit off the off-topic topic, but I still despise that way of thinking and I will never not say so.
However, I've already done a ton of rants about how harmful it is to imply that people who haven't made it simply haven't tried (enough), so I won't go into it now.

INSTEAD,

Tapas has no responsibility to promote your comic.

I think @skicoak's point wasn't that Tapas owes us something for being here and trying our hardest to make our comics/novels...just that a little extra visibility (a) would go a long way for us little guys and (b) really wouldn't cost Tapas as much as people are implying it would. '_' I find it really odd to think that a week or two of spotlight for a non-premium work might somehow be a legitimate threat to their bottom line.

Case in point: me. ^^; I did absolutely nothing to deserve getting Staff Picked outside of writing one random little story as well as I could. NOTHING. I didn't advertise, I didn't aim for any "mass audience", even my thumbnail was just a colorful nondescript blob. It was basically the opposite of everything people say is "deserving" of spotlight.

And yet, someone on the Tapas team took the time out to read my story and grant it that little bit of exposure. And it had a noticeable effect...maybe not for me as an author, but to this day, that novel is the only one that still gets more than 1 or 2 views a week. Two YEARS after it was finished.

...So yeah, I can kinda see why people downplaying that would be offensive. This stuff is real, folks; if advertising didn't work, companies all over the world wouldn't sink billions of dollars into it every year.

And most importantly, Tapas didn't get ANYTHING from me in return for that. I mean, sure, my novel got a huge view and sub boost at the time, but nothing even remotely comparable to that enjoyed by their premium works. I didn't do anything for their bottom line that a 2$ donation couldn't have accomplished.

But they still let me have that. And there's no reason why they couldn't do it for more people, more effectively. Sure, there are plenty of reasons why they might not want to, or that they don't even have to, but it's...not really unreasonable to ask.

[skicoak]

After all, this whole thread isn't just for you.

Never said it did. Considering I didn't post anything in it until 100+ posts had already occurred ... It's pretty faulty math to imply differently.

Why does Tapas owe you an advantage over another creator though?

What Tapas SHOULD owe us, as the smaller creators on the site, is to stop removing potential avenues of visibility in favor of more retail space. That's the argument occurring in multiple threads in these forums. It's been brought up in THIS thread and folks minimizing the advantage of being featured isn't an answer for those concerns.

You should be more concerned about visibility, filtering, networking and discoverability than what Tapas features on its front page. Otherwise you’re just shouting into the Void and hoping it calls back.

How many times do I have to repeat this....everyone is concerned about those as well. Nobody is looking at being featured as the ONLY thing to focus on. This is one thing... Having issues with it doesn't preclude the existence of others.

I don't think anyone is expecting Tapas to put their series on the front page consistently, but I think some people do wish they would help us out and promote us a LITTLE bit.

^This.

Instead there's an influx of people who think they're imbuing life lessons by underselling their advantages and saying Tapas doesn't "owe" us anything.

Two mathematical points...

One....Our group's title's subscriber list has a sizeable ratio of people we brought here to Tapas. This is likely true of EVERY creator here. Tapas then gets to pimp to them. That's a symbiotic relationship... Not a one sided affair.

Two...the ratio of people who check out our title to the subscriber amount is high. It doesn't tell me diddly to insist that opportunities to get more people to check it out the title are tied to factors other than visibility. I can understand it's not for everyone... but the less opportunities we have to reach those that it is for... is a NEGATIVE.

[KRWright]

I think one thing everyone is forgetting is that all these bigger creators who are coming here to tell you one thing, were once smaller creators themselves. You can say we don’t understand, or that we don’t get it, but we do because we were exactly where you all are once.

We can do nothing but share our advice and experiences and our points of view from a different angle. You don’t have to listen at the end of the day.

But then also, this is backing up the other points made further up the thread about why Premium or “successful” creators are rarely here. Any advice or difference of perspective is seen as an attack.

[skicoak]

I may only have a very small, non professional comic, but I can (and do) bring people to Tapas by educating people about Tapas. My role is very small because I'm very introverted, but someone with a good online presence could do lots more, for part irrespective of the size or quality of their comic/novel.

Obviously, having small creators feeling not compensated for their advertising role (among other things) is not conducive to enthusiasm for advertising more... Which is bad for every single creator, big or small.

Thank you for making this point. It's something I have struggled to get out as clearly and concisely.

...So yeah, I can kinda see why people downplaying that would be offensive. This stuff is real, folks; if advertising didn't work, companies all over the world wouldn't sink billions of dollars into it every year.

That's really what it boils down to... The value of the most viewed ad space on the entire site.

[skicoak]

Any advice or difference of perspective is seen as an attack.

My saying "underplaying the advantages of being featured is tone deaf" isn't any more of an attack than saying people who haven't been featured might not be "marketable enough to be featured".

These are conversations that we're having. Playing that card isn't one sided.

[KRWright]

than saying people who haven't been featured might not be "marketable enough to be featured".

I didn’t say that though. I said a feature that only brought in one subscriber would be bad business for Tapas, and that marketability plays a role in that. You’re the one projecting a value judgement into that statement.

Also, I’m a niche creator who writes queer spec lit. You think I don’t know mainstream marketability struggles? I know some of my works will never be featured or likely picked up by any platform. I make that choice every time I pour hours into a new work. It is a choice that I make as a creator, that we all make.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

You can say we don’t understand, or that we don’t get it, but we do because we were exactly where you all are once.

We can do nothing but share our advice and experiences and our points of view from a different angle. You don’t have to listen at the end of the day.

But then also, this is backing up the other points made further up the thread about why Premium or “successful” creators are rarely here. Any advice or difference of perspective is seen as an attack.

Personally, I don't see it as an attack, simply a very drastic difference of opinion.

But I think it's very interesting that that difference is so drastic. Why does it seem like ALL the underdogs are on one side, and ALL the alphas are on the other?? There's probably more overlap than there appears to be...but the fact that this is the image we're getting is probably feeding into the animosity. It's hard to feel like you really "understand" or you "used to be just like us" when we never...see that.

I can't imagine "the change" happening to me if I ever made it big, limited though my perspective may be. I know it's usually considered an insult to imply that someone who's found success "just got lucky", and deservedly so, but...I'd totally be willing to admit to that. ^^; After all these years of working and pining, somehow I'm supposed to think that I only scored a publishing deal because I SUDDENLY started to deserve it 10 years down the line?? Hell no...my number finally came up, is all. That's how I think I would see it.

And I might not be a minority in that way of thinking...which is another reason why we need more voices from both sides to give a more "resolved" image, so to speak. But I already talked about that here, so...

[vothnthorvaldson]

Discussion =/= attack.
There has to be a bit of incomfort or tension for a debate to go anywhere. Learning from each other never goes without some clashing of ideas. Who wants a talk where everything we get is 'yes, you're right'? What's the point of discussing then?

[keii4ii]

You have to be honest with yourself about whether your comic is a personal piece of art for your own enjoyment or a product you're selling, because saying and acting like it's the former, but expecting a queue of customers anyway isn't realistic.

This is an excellent point (though a complex one. "I create for myself" has at least two big, very different meanings. Do you create what you enjoy creating, or what you enjoy consuming? Very different considerations even in cases where the answers overlap.).

People say write what you love, and there will be people who love it for the same reasons as you do. That your audience is out there, no matter how weird your work is. This is true. But the number of people who share your interests may be too small for your work to be financially viable.

I'm in that boat; my story resembles a more popular genre on a superficial level, but it's really not, so I get a bunch of people who come for that genre and end up being disappointed or underwhelmed. And you know what? It's MY choice to stick to my vision. If the lack of a big, engaged readership is the price for it, which in this case it seems to be, then so be it.

It would not benefit the platform to promote my work to an audience that doesn't want it. Hell, it wouldn't benefit ME, either. I don't want new readers if they're only gonna be disappointed with what I have to offer.

I don't really have a new point to make here, just giving my two cents on points already made. Though there is one minor disagreement I would like to voice:

Whether or not Tapas features you, the biggest factor in your comic's popularity is YOU.

I think I agree with you on what should be done. I just want to acknowledge that it is very possible for a solid, marketable work to just get buried in the pile, due to factors outside of the creator's control. But your own decisions are the only factors you can control. So might as well focus on doing what you can!

[skicoak]

I didn’t say that though. I said a feature that only brought in one subscriber would be bad business for Tapas, and that marketability plays a role in that. You’re the one projecting a value judgement into that statement.

You keep focusing on the statement that ONE is better than NONE. It was statement of mathematical logic against the downplaying of being featured but...

If you wanna stick to that, what is your guess as to the probable number of subscribers increase that Tapas is looking for before it's GOOD business to feature a creator? Is it hundreds? Thousands? Should they only feature titles they think are Premium worthy?

Legit question .

[KRWright]

alphas

W a t. God don’t use this term. There’s no such thing as an “alpha” creator.

I can't imagine "the change" happening to me if I ever made it big, limited though my perspective may be.

Actually, most of the people I know didn’t change when they got success. All that happened was they stopped engaging because people started dogpiling them or being weird with them like @LordVincent described. I’m the same as I was before third writers camp. I just have more experience now.

Discussion =/= attack.

It becomes one when someone leaps into a discussion, without checking nuance, and then misinterprets something to have the most negative meaning possible and replies like that though. And if you think this doesn’t happen, you just have to look through this thread. Things were quite civil, sharing differences of perspective, until someone told someone else what they were apparently saying. That, against a backdrop of sustained negativity, is going to make people feel attacked. Especially when it’s something where people have literally expressed they don’t feel comfortable coming out of the woodwork, but they’re going to ty this once, and then this.

[Jenny-Toons]

But I think it's very interesting that that difference is so drastic. Why does it seem like ALL the underdogs are on one side, and ALL the alphas are on the other?? There's probably more overlap than there appears to be...but the fact that this is the image we're getting is probably feeding into the animosity. It's hard to feel like you really "understand" or you "used to be just like us" when we never...see that.

Coming out from the lurking.

I suppose this happens when you get the experience of the so-called "Alpha" or know enough about the "winning side" that you figure out it's not what all that it' cracked up to be or understand just how much people have worked to get to that stage.

Luck is a factor sometimes. But I see enough people throw "luck" around in these forums like it's a requirement instead of thinking "hmmmmm, how did these creators MAKE things go into their favor???"

Because lemme tell you -- I don't do luck.

Yeah, I've been promoted by Webtoons -- but never by Tapas. I don't count Trending or Popular as promoted because those are based on audience input most of the time. Tapas hasn't given me any type of shoutout. But Webtoons has -- and I can tell you straight up that it was never luck. I'll tell you that I deserved those promotions.

Because I a) collab and promoted a Superhero comic with other creators (some popular, some not) on Webtoons. I interacted with the Webtoons Twitter pages, just posting my work, answering questions, etc. Any promotion they gave me? Came from my interactions outside of any discord or any forums. They were out in the open.

But even then? I'm not a featured creator. I'm not a popular canvas creator. I don't have a contract nor make an income. I've got maybe 8k subs, so I'm mid-tier, but I am not on the level of KR. And quite frankly? Having heard enough of the horror stories for some featured creators (needing to do 60 panel updates, having wrist pains, having burn out, etc)? I don't envy them.

The expectations and pains are just different for featured vs non-featured creators, and I know that well enough to be able to not care if I get a promotion or not. If I can get one? Fine -- that's lovely. If not, that's fine too. Because I know well enough the expectations of being featured means, and I know well enough that I personally can't do that. Not not at my level.

And that's my question -- are people who see themselves as "underdogs" ready to take on the work load of a featured creator? Are they ready to take on that audience? Meet those expectations? Me -- no, I'm not. So I stick with what I do, which is niche (cosmic horror romance ain't mainstream), and I take what I can get through what I can control.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I had read the thread. I'd say what you are pointing out is at most annoying.
And.. I've been on the recieving end in the past No big deal, no grudges held. I think it's important to take some distance. These things are small and of no consequences.

[KRWright]

If you wanna stick to that, what is your guess as to the probable number of subscribers increase that Tapas is looking for before it's GOOD business to feature a creator?

Datawise I’m not sure across the board so here’s my stats. Mortician has nearly 500 subs before it was featured. Down The Rabbit Hole was in the 400s. The Accidental Prince has broken 1000. My anthology I created with 11 other Tapas authors had 100. 2 of those are now Premium works.

What does Tapas consider? Well, for novels they look to be actively curating content and reading it and featuring what they feel is high quality. You can see it in their Staff Picks and recent feature lists - which have included many novels with less than 100 subs. Like if you want to see a microcosm of their business model - check the novels section. I’m not a Tapas employee though. I don’t get to say what should or shouldn’t be featured. I must say - they’re doing an amazing job discovering talented smaller creators and showcasing them for novels. But these creators are all also professional, networking and doing all the other stuff too. Their content is exceptionally high quality (I have so much respect for many of the most recent featured writers - they’re all amazing).

[DokiDokiTsuna]

W a t. God don’t use this term. There’s no such thing as an “alpha” creator.

If that's offensive, you're gonna have to explain it to me...it's just that I wrote 'underdogs' immediately before and my mind was in the theme. I didn't mean any harm.

Actually, most of the people I know didn’t change when they got success.

That just goes right back to my question though: where are all the successful people who still think like those who aren't as successful??

I guess the implication is that they've all been chased off by the negativity...but if they indeed still think like "the rest of us", why do so many of them feel uncomfortable enough to leave??

are people who see themselves as "underdogs" ready to take on the work load of a featured creator? Are they ready to take on that audience? Meet those expectations? Me -- no, I'm not. So I stick with what I do, which is niche (cosmic horror romance ain't mainstream), and I take what I can get through what I can control.

...I mean, due to statistics alone, a good portion of them probably are. We're not all whining baby highschoolers, y'know...lots of underdogs are grown adults and even entrepreneurs/working professionals who are more than prepared for what it takes.

Like you, I happen to be mature enough to know that I'm also not ready for that at this point in my life (I may never be able to be a "conventional" success, tbh). But there are plenty of people at my level who have the time and the willpower, and I don't think it's fair to discount them just because the majority might not know what they're getting into.

[jensrichard77]

Luck is a factor sometimes. But I see enough people throw "luck" around in these forums like it's a requirement instead of thinking "hmmmmm, how did these creators MAKE things go into their favor?

That’s why I started this one:

First. This is not a thread about good or bad personal taste. This is not a thread about Premium Vs. Free to read. This is about learning how to make content that the targeting group of readers that Tapas has collected by their Premium series. It all started with me getting curious about what made premium series premiums. So I started to read some. I found out quickly there is a swarm of BL/romance readers that basically just takes anything with a BL tag on. To test that I made The La…

And I had to do it twice because the first one I did kind of got misunderstood and kind of got attacked.

[TAMAnnoying]

Y’all sound like your purposefully talking past each other. Listen

Getting a feature dosn’t mean you’ve made it
No shit, Any non delusional creator knows that a feature isn’t going to mean shit unless they keep advancing and keep up the wrath ethic that got them that feature in the first place- but please don’t deny that getting featured or getting into the the noteworthy comics selection, didn’t help with sub count. It dose. And yes maybe after a week of being featured you loose half of the subs that you gained from it cause that’s just how readership works around here. But you know what? You still got that other half, and those people who unsubed? Well they still read it and still gave out likes till they stopped. This still helps with numbers and stats.

Now all this is irrelevant to the most important part which is the >psychological< part which is simply people like seeing there sub count go up which is why it’s incredibly disheartening when someone used to care about getting that one new subscriber and change into “oh look I only got 100 subs this week, damn.” It kind of starts to feel like you’re becoming one of >those< creators.

Now It’s impossible not to get to that point cause the number game is always going to effect us but this is why we always try it humble ourselves with that thought possess starts happening.

tapas owes us nothing
Yes exacly that’s why it’s nice to have a community that supports each other rather then continues to make walls

luck isn’t a factor
This is completely nonsensical, if you’ve ever thought back in time of how you got to the potion that your in you can bet theirs gonna be sevral coincidence of people just “because I did this today.”

No, I don’t think you should rely on luck but if you actually read about “successful” people and talk to some other big sub count creators- some of them would tell you “yeah it was supposed to be a fun side thing and then it got big over night so I guess I’m doing this now.”

Right place right time is a thing and I’d never say the most of the people who “made it big” didn’t deserve it. I’d say they’re one of the many people who exisit who DO deserve it who got lucky enough to get picked out. Cause the thing is there’s so much saturation of creators and ALLWAYs will be that there will always me MORE people who deserve recognition then the people who don’t. And A lot of these people don’t get recognized till AFTER they die >usually< cause someone wants to cash in on their death. Cause that’s always fun to wake up to on a news article

Can we all just agree that everyone has a giant wall they have to beat there heads against till it works out? And I’ve never said anything bad about people cause of sub count- that’s a dumb fuckinh reason to dislike someone, but just like you guys feel unwelcome when people talk about “the big guys” people arnt gonna feel too good about you when you pay their heads and say “oh child your precious feature won’t matter so stop worrying about it.” Like, hello I thought you where the ones who said to work hard and always think about promoting yourselves but now your like “oh not stop worng about tapas lolz”

And no I understand that’s not what your trying to say but text isn’t exactly the best format to read people and people will read what they think your trying to imply if your not clear enough.

[DokiDokiTsuna]

And I had to do it twice because the first one I did kind of got misunderstood and kind of got attacked.

Oh, frick, I remember that. XD That is a great example of things going south...

[KRWright]

where are all the successful people who still think like those who aren't as successful??

Until I come onto the forums and get involved with conversations like this - I don’t think of myself as successful. I think of myself as a creator who has had successes. And that can be true of a creator of any size. I don’t to around my day-to-day life being like “oh I’m successful”. I’m constantly working on self-improvement, tweaking marketing, working on my next projects, giving back to the community, etc etc. It’s all hustle, same as it was originally when I started and had 3 subs.

So yeah... when I’m working 30-50 hours on my platform in various ways as well as having a day job? I just don’t have time to do much more. If a space feels like I’m not welcome, I’ll leave and take whatever I could have brought to that space with me. I’ve found some great and supportive discord communities where we all build each other up (from those with 0 subs to those with 1000s) and it’s just a different experience.

[skicoak]

And I had to do it twice because the first one I did kind of got misunderstood and kind of got attacked.

Did it really get "misunderstood" though?

The first one started out saying we should all be reading Premium comics, and learning from them, if we wanted to be "successful". You revised the statement, through revision, to adjust the dialog so good on you but that's not really a misunderstanding.

If a space feels like I’m not welcome, I’ll leave and take whatever I could have brought to that space with me.

If folks want to avoid dissenting discourse because it makes them feel "unwelcome" then that's a choice. But that's inherently the point of a public forum ... It is public and open to all opinions under the rules it is run by.

If a curated Discord is a better fit for you, good on you.

Not sure pointing out all the things you could of "brought" with you to the forums is a good look though. It implies a lot of things... even if that isn't your intention.