31 / 227
Mar 2020

I wouldn't see it as bragging! '_' Hell, for some people "a good chunk of rent money" would be totally worth it; I think most of the artists here with a decent level of maturity would love to know about little details like that.

To be honest, I think this "us vs. them" mentality might be more easily remedied if more premium artists would stick their necks out and be open about their experiences, rather than censoring themselves out of fear of social rejection (or worse, just up and leaving).

It kinda reminds me of the practice of 'bussing' during the Civil Rights Movement: rather than waiting for each side to explicitly agree to welcome the other group with open arms, sometimes it's better to just mash the groups together and normalize it.

Yeah... but that's not actually that fair. If the tone shifts, you'll see people being more open I think, but it's not up to those creators to somehow fight their way to having fair treatment. We also sign contracts, and we are under no obligation to share our personal financial situations to make others feel better.

I'm one of the persons who never has put any money into Premium, and I can assure you @ratique that it has nothing to do with the works being Premium nor with not wanting to support Premium artists with ink or actual money. It has to do with having zero (often) or little (sometimes) interest in the stories proposed, and I really tried, and still do (eg. I follow advice from people whose comics I like, also randomly try a few ones if the cover has appeal, etc). So far, no luck. I may find them well done, esthetically pleasing, but that's not enough for me to support them on my tight budget.

I'm not familiar with your work, so I'm not one of the creators you are speaking of; but I did in the past get disappointed, and stop following/supporting people when they started to do their art professionally, and that, quite a few times, and for all kinds of arts (comic/illustration of course, but also music, ballet etc).

The main reason is generally the fact that artists have to drop most or all experimental/avant-garde elements when they become professionals. In competitive areas, there is generally no place for such elements, but unfortunately, that's the main attraction for me. Same great artist with same style, same type of story may become very bland to me if all the experimental I liked from them is gone.
Money is hard to earn, so I won't feel like paying for content that I 'sort of' like or 'used to' like.
I will keep my money for things that I truly love, and they happen to not really exist in Premium as far as I know. I will happily support a Premium work if I find one I truly love.

I'm sure there are a lot of other reasons to not support Premium comics, and probably some of these reasons are less palatable, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one to simply have no taste for them, because of the constraints put on them by having to please a larger readership.

I'll admit I have experienced similar sentiments back a few years ago when a couple of series I was reading on Tap got poached to be featured on WT. I had no interest in using that platform so I just … stopped reading. It may sound terrible but hey, they found their audience. I don't blame the creators nor speak ill of them though.

I didn't mean it that way...it's not that the community needs to be able to milk them for info. I think it just needs them to be present. To regularly join in discussions and provide their perspective. It's hard to think of someone as a "them" when they're sitting right next to you, having normal conversations about everyday stuff just like anyone else.
My point is that this trend of self-segregation from artists who go Premium or otherwise find success isn't helping anyone in the long run, and in some ways it might even be hurting the community.

No one's obligated to sacrifice their peace of mind to try to make things better: if you really don't feel comfortable here you should definitely leave. But for those that are kind of on the fence, or don't really care much either way, it'd be great if they'd stick around and make their voices heard. If I ever became a Premium artist, leaving the forum would be the last thing on my mind; I don't care if anyone thinks I "belong" here or not.

See this is one of the reasons I will never pay to read premium, I have read so many free pages and have seen so many unfinished or sloppy panels- and I don’t blame the artist for this- I blame the system, a system that forces them to make 30 panels a week so they cut corners everywhere. They HAVE to do it just to make deadlines- but- It’s just not my thing, I like reading comics where people take there time and make every piece of the story count including the panels, so it’s just not worth my money when theirs free art that feels more finished and “professional” then the premium stuff.

That’s just how some people feel about it, and as creators ourselves were more likely to see this and have picker tasted then non creators. Such is life.

Yes, I would not speak ill of them either. And would go back to supporting them if they decide to do a side project that I like more (it happens all the time with music. Artist get more popular, their music doesn't interest me anymore; then they miss it too, and do some kind of wacky, super experimental side project, and I'm back! It must exist in comics too)

This is one of the reasons why I remain active on the forums, even though I sort of have high numbers I guess (they could def be higher tho :sweat_smile: plz god my wallet needs it).

I think what we disagree on is whether or not this is 'self-segregation'. People tend not to go to places where they're not welcomed - nor do they tend to want to help communities that aren't supportive of them and their goals. At the end of the day, the tone shifting to one that celebrates success instead of focusing more on the negatives would draw these people back or into the space. We all know that the forums can be a tad negative at times, especially when it comes to popular or premium series. So I think it's more of a case of 'Build it and they will come' rather than expecting people to put up with it until things get better.

I'm relatively active on the forums - run my own craft thread around storytelling etc., and do lots of work with novelists on Discord around Tapas, so I'm not about to go anywhere any time soon. But there are times where I've definitely had to take a break just to avoid a negativity spiral.

This is the problem and I am so sorry to hear people tell you that you are not part of the community! Those of us who are small but have dreams of going big need to have creators who have “made it” on the forums.
Why get mad at someone who has the experience to guide you to your goals? Why outcast those who have walked in your footsteps.?
I have stopped interacting a lot in the forums because of the negativity. Instead of complaining, why not brain storm about what you can do to improve, and getting invaluable advice from those who have come before you?

YESSSSS absolutely!!! I have said this before, repeatedly, but I will point out again: even when you are using the search box to look for a specific comic by name, you get suggested lots of more popular comics first even if just one-word matches your query. Every single category is organized by popularity. so it is a very discouraging cycle to want to grow an audience when comics that have better numbers are more likely to get a more prominent spot anyway.

I really don't want to start pushing salty conspiracy theories, but I remember a user who was monitoring the "fresh" section and his comic was flat out replaced from the list and after 10 minutes it was gone. No, not because others who updated eventually pushed his comic out of the list: he noticed the spot of some comics got literally replaced by others. I hope it was just a temporary glitch or an error in the algorithm. But overall is hard to get visibility anywhere in the multiple sections. "unknown" or small comics are not very likley to ever be on the front page or even the subpages.

Yes, we all must work on our won to promote ou work to get readers, but the non-visibility is definitely a problem.

TL;DR: I hesitate to post this post :cry_02: Cause I don't want to argue over opinions cause all of this is seriously my opinion but since I saw Doki mention premium creators should offer their perspective... ooph here I am. Gonna say this now, I'm happy to have a dialogue, but i'm not gonna argue to change anyone's mind; that's not my purpose here. I think i spent an hour crafting this and if there are any issues/mistakes, I apologize. I'll edit it later.

Outlier Opinion: Disregard desire for outside forces giving you visibility and master your storycraft to entice and keep readership. You have to take responsibility for your growth and the quality of your story. Suck it up and realize it'll take a long time and a lot of smart, deliberate work to succeed in the long haul.


I cannot express just HOW MUCH goes into being a successful storyteller. But here goes.

I like this topic. So I've got... I suppose an extreme or outlier opinion on this whole Visibility demanding thing. I've been thinking about it for a long while and it'll be nice to get it off my chest.

I honestly don't care how Tapas changes its UI. Are there things that can be improved? OF COURSE. And a lot of the bugs and concerns have been quite vocally and sometime vitriolically expressed by plenty. I don't need to do it here.

Why do I not care? It's not in my control. And whatever they do isn't going to affect my gameplan. Because the story is king, and story can and will win out under any algorithm or perceived slights to 'small creators'.

(Aside: I also hate the mentality of "small creator". If you think of yourself that way, how can you become big? Treat yourself like a professional creator and hold yourself up to that standard, DO what a professional creator would do, and the success will follow that because you'll take the steps needed for bigger success; i.e. Study your genre, read widely, consume good stories widely, master your craft, be honest with yourself and self-aware enough to express your Truth through the story; just tell the damn story and not care what people will think 'cause if you're genuine, others WILL resonate with that. The story you tell will reveal what kind of person you are anyway, might as well make it a deliberate and conscious choice.)

I believe that a creator is wholly responsible for their creations. It may not be your fault if an algorithm or being in a niche genre means your readership pool is smaller, but it is your responsibility to deal with it by focusing on what you can control= Making a damn good story.

Contrary to the opinions I've seen, the audience knows a good story. They're not stupid and they're always hungry for stories that tap into the capital 'T' Truths of human experience.

Our audiences, with their hive mind, is smarter than the sole creator, and it takes every ounce of our wit and honesty and self-awareness to create a story that will resonate with others.

Do you think people don't actively search for stories they think they'll enjoy? Maybe some, but most will AT LEAST sort by their favored genre and begin sampling. Cause hell, I do this whenever I want to consume a good story and if I do it surely I'm not the only human being ever that does it. I'm not nearly that special.

--

I will never doubt that people always want a good story and they will engage with good stories if encouraged to do so. You have to give the audience at least that much respect.

Regardless of any front page fresh/trending/popular boosts, New and Noteworthy, Staff Picks, or Daily Snacks, in the end how well your comic does is entirely your responsibility. If you don't make a good product you can't expect outstanding results. I don't care how many times you become visible to the vast majority of the readership.

And if you can't recognize what a 'good product' is, then you have to study the craft, study other successful works that have stood the test of time and not just brief trends, and learn to recognize what a good story is. People who say they don't read or consume other works in a variety of media aren't doing the job of a successful creator. How can you create when your inspiration well is dry?

And say you DO stumble upon that visibility, now you're in the domain of democratic choice of the audience. Their support or lack thereof is taken as an indicator of the quality of the execution of your story.

It's not about the art, or even the content sometimes (there will be a section of humanity that will disagree with your story's content and there's nothing to be done about that; however you should never give them a chance to say that your story is a muddling vague mess); it's about how clearly executed the story is.

I'll say this frankly. No one is owed anything. Just by making a story, you're not owed readership or Visibility. Nor do you get to have any control over the audience and who will and won't like your work.

The only thing you get to own is your efforts and the story you create. You become successful only after you master the basics of telling a good story (notice I didn't say getting good at art or drawing or technical writing skill), and never before.

The level of success will be determined by how well you can tell the story and how consistently you can continue to do so with future stories if you want a career in this.

Trying to assign value to yourself based on the response to your story is a dangerous thing because it can be volatile and unreliable.

You have to define your value and worth based on what you have done, what you know you can do now, and what you know you can do next to improve. Because those things are in your locus of control, and nothing else is. Therefore all those other things--unless you allow them to--can not define you.

--
I'm not a high tier creator. Even my Tapas Original comic was a bit niche compared to others in the Fantasy Romance Genre. Even with promotion it didn't exactly 'go viral' let's say, and it had plenty of promotion. And I own it, cause it was a very particular story that I knew I needed to write and it was my first time learning to execute a professional comic while simultaneously teaching myself more about storycraft.

I'll forever be grateful for Tapas for investing in me and that story. And it was only because I was able to rise to the occasion of doing my work well that I have my current freelance work with Tapas that allows me to work comics full time. As an assistant for now but at least my foot is in the door.

Before that comic's opportunity, I didn't have any significant success from when I joined Tapas in Jan 2015 to July 2018 because I didn't have the skills or expertise to make a well-executed story in a comic format. I can't even read my one-shots anymore cause i'm too embarrassed about who I was back then. :blusht:

Only starting in 2018 did I seriously began studying my craft. I studied everything from prose (literature, grammar, rhetoric), film (screenplay, Camera angles, composition, storyboarding, acting), to all things drawing and coloring related.

I studied and trained and kept evolving my art style to find the most effective way to create art quickly and well. All of my focus was on deliberate practice. I dragged myself hand over hand to where I am now. I'm still doing that.

Now, present day. My only concern with a comic is how well I can connect, on a human level, the drama of my comic to my audience. Will my audience recognize the humanity I fold into the story and how the plot unfolds? Do my characters come off as genuine? Am I telling the story honestly, and without a thought to anyone's opinions but just trying to express, through the drama of the plot, how I see the world? Am I brave enough to tuck into the story what I truly believe?

An honest desire to connect with the audience is key. You're taking the reader by the hand and saying "let me tell you a story, I promise it won't waste your time cause this is a story I love." Everything else is secondary.


This may come off as boasting, and if it does I won't apologize. I've worked too long and too hard to feel bad that things are finally rolling my way:

Bone's Tarot is my current comic. After Swaha completed I developed it into a Premium Pitch.

It didn't get chosen.

Not for lack of ability to tell a decent story no, it was a marketing sort of thing, as far as I understand. My story was a cross-section of two genres that did not fit neatly into the trends that readers currently respond to. It was too BL for Fantasy and too Fantasy for BL, essentially. I knew the editor I had passed the pitch to had done her darndest to persuade but in the end, it wasn't chosen. Fair enough; it was Tapas team's choice in the end.

So I shrugged, thanked her for her efforts, and began plans to start producing it anyway. I let myself mope of course, but I moped while I did the work. I'm only human, of course it was disappointing not to be chosen :cry_01:. And then there was the part of me that said BT would be a good opportunity to finally get a dang Patreon going. I had to find a way somehow. :eyebrows:

I made my production workflow, schedule, and goals. And on New Year's day 2020, I published the first 9 pages on Tapas, and for the first time ever posted on Webtoons, where I was truly unknown.

I posted 3 pages a week MWF after that first big upload (cause a nice first impression is how you keep readers), every week for the last 2 months without skipping a day or skimping on my freelance work that I do for Tapas now. I think I regularly draw 6-9 hours every day (not counting mealtimes or breaks). I also got bored of posting on social media so after the first few weeks I just stopped and stuck to Patreon, Tapas and Webtoon uploads.

Here's the results:
on Tapas: First week: 500 subs. Then, I was on Staff Picks for a week; I got 5k subs from that and honestly did not notice if anyone had left.

All I knew was that with every update, I shared a bit of BG info on the world or the characters that weren't important to the plot and asked my readers questions they could answer in the comments. I replied to everyone I could and created dialogue with them. I could ONLY do this cause I know my entire story, start to finish, inside and out. And I was excited to share it with everyone cause I really freaking love this story; I enjoy the hell out of it.

Presently I've earned 7.6k subs in 2 months, with 24+ regularly updated pages. Apart from that week on staff picks, I credit the execution of my story that encourages my readers to interact with me in the comic that keeps them reading. It's that interaction that propels BT regularly up the ranks of Popular. Not to the very top but high enough.

On Webtoon: This one surprised me. I split Tapas' Episode 1 into 3 parts and made it so Webtoon is one week behind Tapas...because i'm petty, I don't like Webtoon and figured if I could get enough views, that Creator Credit of 100 bucks a month isn't something I'd say no to. It was also an experiment to see how many readers I could pull to Tapas just by enticing them with the story (and pages that are censored by WT guidelines but not Tapas').

Same publishing pace, one page per MWF. And in 2 months I've gotten 19k subs, with virtually no promotion.

I think BT made it into 'recommended reading' on canvas for 1 day; because WT has terrible stat tracking I can't recall if that boosted me any; and I think I was on 'up and coming' in the bottom corner for a week but again, I didn't see any measurable increase in those early days as it's only picked up steam in February with 0 promotion from Webtoon's side, just feedback from the audience.

If you read through the whole post, then take these results as you will. But please, don't think blind luck is what got me here. I aggressively made sure I had the skills necessary when an opportunity presented itself. And I've still got a very long way to go.

I think relying on outside forces for your big break is the biggest mistake any creator can make. I don't believe in luck, only the ability to recognize opportunity and making sure you have the skills to take advantage of that opportunity when it presents itself.
-
I'll go hide in my hermit cave now. Cheers.

All of my this.
I stopped using Tapas for like.... I dunno a year? Mostly becauseo of how overly negative and snippy people can be on here.

Unfortunately that's what usually happens with webcomic "communities".
You should've seen the Comic Genesis forums in the early 2000's. They would gang up popular comics because they didn't confirm to their lofty artistic standards (snort).
To be frank, I only show up here when shit hits the fan or Tapas shits the bed.
Not because I find the place negative, but because it's just a bunch of self promotion threads.

I want to thank you very much for your insight and being willing to take your time to lay your thoughts out so well. I don't know you or your work (yet) but you're already my hero lol Luck is definitely a factor but people really can't rely on that.
My comic was doing... okay for a while, though was getting pretty stagnant. It wasn't until chapter 6 where we really started grinding, studying, working on the story mistakes from the earlier chapters did we start to get a larger boost of people. We're still in a state of losing subs because we're coming off a staff pick, but we've been fairly active in audience engagement now. Sticking to a consistent schedule also helped immensely.

Unfortunately the concept of build it and they will come is not a reliable one.
If you are actively pushed into obscurity, you could have a great comic but no one will ever know because no one will see it to find out.

You're assuming that people are not successful because they are not putting the work into it.

You know, I've worked hard too. I worked so hard that I ended up with psychiatrist appointment and at a doctor's office with a heart problem.
Does that mean I made a good comic? No, it does not.
I've had some luck which gave me visibility.
Would I have as many subscribers as I do now without being spotlighted?
No, I would not.

There are far more elements to a comic becoming successful than just working hard, and one of those is visibility.
Should you be actively denied of it, even if you made a really good comic, your opportunities drop dramatically.

I feel like no one pays attention to that whole "nuanced" thing I keep bringing up as to why people don't get visibility that they hope for lol

I don't think SeraphicMayin was saying that in every instance the reason why a product fails is because it's not good.
The problem is when people immediately assume the reason is someone or something trying to get them down when there's a good chance that they do indeed lack some skills that would aid in attaining visibility. Because these are skills that are learned and many people immediately jump into the pool without checking the depths of the water.
That's what I took from what they said anyways. Also that being self defeating because you're not getting the visibility you hoped for isn't going to be as effective as acting as if you're already the professional you want to be and treating it as such and essentially "faking it till you make it" which is basically what Seraph was saying.

There's always going to be instances of underrated undervalued artists. The sad thing is that there's a helluva lot of us and not everyone can or will be noticed. It doesn't inherently speak to the quality of the product, but blindly assuming it's a Tapas issue and nothing to do with your own lack of skills (either technical or just PR and marketing related) is potentially setting yourself up for failure.

Well, of course you need to be self aware to the point that you can see your own deficiencies and be realistic about your chances.
But the problem we are facing now is that visibility is being actively denied.
How many people who could've been great creators got discouraged by the lack of visibility?

I can't speak for others, but when I first started nearly 2 decades ago, my comic was horrendous. But there were people who read it and saw something that spoke to them even if it wasn't technically good by any definition of the word.
I knew that I was getting exposure and I was encouraged enough that 18 readers pushed me to get better because I knew that people would see it and perhaps I could get a few more readers.
What about now? You can get better, but who's going to see it? Where's the incentive?

That's the tragedy at the moment.
Not everyone will be famous or even popular. But how many people are being turned away that could've done something great if they were encouraged enough to do so?

I guess I'm just going to have to disagree with the the idea that the visibility issue is as big of an issue as you seem to think it is. I don't think it's perfect by any means and I think there's definitely things that can be improved to help that (all these new bugs certainly aren't helping) but it's nowhere near to the level of Smackjeeves and unlike Smackjeeves the devs have shown to be trying and while not perfect I do think they get more hate than is actually warranted. Granted that's all my opinion you can disagree if you want idc lol