We don't have enough promotion threads

joannekwan 2021-03-27 23:13:01 UTC #15

There certainly has been an uptick in promo threads, but there has also definitely been an uptick in new forum users, particularly in the past year. I guess they aren't too noticeable since many just stick to promo threads, but several have joined us a regulars and contribute to good discussions!

crowstories 2021-03-27 23:15:59 UTC #16

I blame the pandemic.

I am one of those users lol

Leverance 2021-03-27 23:16:58 UTC #17

Rhonder:

Taking this bit admittedly slightly out of context, but big agree! While I do think that these forums are a great place to seek out an initial readership (and maybe even climb beyond that 15 sub threshold ), I think a lot of newer creators fail to realize that oftentimes effort would be better spent trying to get their work in front of more reader-readers rather than creator-readers... of which there are many more of, and often have more time for reading There's nothing wrong with promoting here, but a lot of us have limited time to read in addition to working on our own comics, and whatever other hobbies or obligations we have in our personal lives. Social Medias and such are fickle too, but if one can find a platform that they gel with, that has potential to be more fruitful

THAT SAID I do think that external promotion generally works better for series hosted on Webtoons than Tapas tbh, at least in my experience... I prefer Tapas as a platform from a creator perspective, but I've found it's difficult to direct traffic here and get them to actually engage with your work if they don't already have an account. The same goes for Webtoons as well, but many more people have a Webtoons account than a Tapas one lol. With my first comic on the site, I talked to a lot of friends and acquaintances during its run who would always surprise me by saying that they were reading my comic (explaining my large-ish amount of views relative to my comic size) but, you know, views count for very little compared to other forms of engagement for the algorithms (seemingly at least). I have yet to do any hard promotion for my new series yet, but I'm planning to swap from a Tapas focus to a Webtoons focus consequentially for external marketing.

Okie, this was long, I'm done rambling

From a writer's point of view (at least in my experience) these forums aren't that effective, considering most creators are Comic creators. And making us writers in smaller numbers than them. For a fraction of the time you get more subscribers than us -- often we've to constantly double our efforts. And there aren't that many yet interested readers in our work. It's quite unfair but it's the reality we face. Even though I use a fair time creating novels, I make sure to consume things that I can use in my work. So, really, I find there is no excuse for creators to not support each other. Many mistakes writing on here as the ' easier craft ' when in fact it's not. That's an attitude I've observed quite a lot around here, unfortunately.

As a product, Comics tend to be promoted differently. Writing isn't that easy, you've no pictures to use other than what you can take from other sites like Canva. Some of us, even with years of experience on our backs won't get much of anywhere without help. And it's common knowledge that the writing community is bitter and very competitive orientated and there is no united front. Hell, I feel I'm often on my own, though I promote others I rarely if ever get anything back. This is why I rather rely on Instagram for my promotions. Some sites treat us badly as well, and we get bruised by that, sometimes for years. So, unfortunately, I don't have the same faith as you. Been lied to one time too often by sites before.

crowstories 2021-03-27 23:20:14 UTC #18

From what I can see, it appears that there is a supportive writing community on twitter. It might take some research to track down the right tags, but they exist.

With that said, we still come back to the problem of promoting to other creators, who are busy creating and don't have that much time to follow all of their creator friends' work. I think this is especially true with writing, which takes more time to consume than a comic strip (though relatively less time to produce, at least for me).

Rhonder 2021-03-27 23:33:57 UTC #19

Ah, that's a shame. I definitely agree that I lack the relevant experience to speak with confidence about a novelist's experience on these forums When I say "initial readership", I was speaking to the scale of like... maybe 1-10 folks that you could become friends with via discussions here and get to support your work? Trying to gain many more readers just from here isn't a sustainable strategy, though, even for comics xD I see there are novel-oriented threads but maybe they don't yield similar results to the comic ones? 'Tis a shame if so.

littlelilylee5683 2021-03-27 23:47:05 UTC #20

I am new to Tapas (started publishing in December). I like the threads on writing help and collabs and writing jams and such, but I don't see a ton of those among the rest (other than people looking for an artist/writer for their specific project). There seem to be good discord communities, so perhaps people have moved to places like that instead?

I will say, though, that I have apparently had a unique experience as a new novelist here... I had one of my update posts on Instagram shared through Tapastry and am currently on the staff picks list. And I'm a total nobody. So I didn't know this wasn't working and now I feel kinda awful that there are people who have been on here a while and never had Tapas help with promotion.

I hear everywhere about fixing the genre/tag system and 100% agree with that. The biggest problem is that outside of a cluttered front page, readers have to pick a single genre and scroll through a list. And even in the free to read, there are still the always popular folks with tons of subscribers, so they dominate the top of popular and trending lists anyway. Which they completely deserve. But diversity is good too, so maybe in addition to staff picks move the fresh to the front and have "new creators" (not just new comic/novels) or "close to 25 or 100 or 250" or feature some genre combo's (GL Action or LGBTQ+ Fantasy). I liked the black history month and women's history month groups.

I also love the idea of some kind of promotion and just overall tutorials. Publishing tips, faqs, common mistakes, what readers look for... an actual creator resources section. I have actually had a good experience as a novelist here with other writers... Many of my readers are other free creators, not just subbing but reading and commenting, and a lot of times the promotion threads here are creators helping creators. I've had the overall feeling that creators want to help each other but it isn't always easy. Many are students, many are working full time... Maybe find a better, easier way for us to support each other.

And about the comment vs novel - true. But in comics' defense - isn't Tapas mainly a comic site that added novels? I could be wrong. But most promotional novel threads are "I saw 20 of these comic ones, let's do a novel one" or "this started as a comic thread but I added novels later so join us!" ^^

Sorry this was so long!! Just couldn't stop once I started...

Leverance 2021-03-27 23:47:13 UTC #21

@Rhonder It is, I don't see it changing anytime soon. For that, some people need to understand that writing can be just as challenging as a comic but as another medium. Our audience expects usually other things, and I've written for years trying to crack the code that both satisfies me as a creator and as a consumer. For me, I don't get that a lot. There is rarely I see a relevant writing thread to comment on as I mostly lurk (most threads, as I've observed on my time here are mostly aimed at comic creators and I feel my presence there is either unwanted or not needed). I've tried promoting on Twitter, with little if no response, Instagram slightly better. I've breached out to other sites as well --- yet it has yielded small results in readership.

For some time now, I've felt like the odds are against me. The writing site I'm not so often on anymore, I felt like I was treated as someone who produces books, not listened to, and toxic people stealing concepts. I've gotten smaller and smaller patience for things not worth my time. So if I feel I'm treated unjustly as a creator, I will leave. These experiences aren't that linked to Tapas, no worries!

Leverance 2021-03-27 23:54:20 UTC #22

Regarding this, some years ago Tapas started to promote (or try to) Novels as well. It is more of a Novel/Comic site now but it needs lots of work to equalize the two properly. I've seen those, although they're far and few in between. For me, it still doesn't feel too including. I hope in the future there come writing/comic workshops where both sites of the creators can learn from each other and in turn become much better and understand one another better. Right now, I feel many don't get how tough the writing side of things really is. Though comic creators share their fair amounts of challenges as well, a mutual understanding can come a long way.

Also congrats on your achievements! It's well deserved.

littlelilylee5683 2021-03-28 00:28:06 UTC #23

It does still seem unbalanced but I just assumed this was natural. I think reader expectations are important too. Are they coming for comics or novels or both? Seems like external Tapas promotion of novels needs to be more robust, not just the internal?

I purposely follow a ton of comic artists on social media and am in a discord with both. I like the interaction of both and the idea of sharing between. We definitely each have our strengths and challenges and can share. And I don't necessarily believe one is easier than the other, we just face different difficulties. Ones we often can't understand, since I can't draw for crap and am in awe of anyone who can, and an artist can rely on on actual images to paint a picture while we have to build a world with words. I will say it does seem art is more physically draining and does require more resources. A lot goes into drawing just a single panel, and I think sometimes people don't understand that. Whereas I can sit down, open Word, and poor out all of my thoughts at once. BUT, then I spend a million hours editing and fretting over every word, because that's all I have. It's just different skill sets and processes.

And thank you.

rajillustration 2021-03-28 00:30:45 UTC #24

I have one comic I turned into a novel, and most of the people reading the novel are different readers. Only a handful switched over. And, only a handful of people who stay for the novel switch over to the comic. (and in my case, the novel has way better engagement in a few months than the comic version which was silent as a ghost for 2 years--2 years and that comic only had 20 subs until I started actively promoting it and I'm a professional illustrator!) so it's not the same demographic you're competing for.

As for saying writing isn't hard--of course it's hard. I've spent years writing some stories and they still aren't finished, I know how hard it is. I spend hours and hours every week getting this novel uploaded just right because it needs to be updated 5x a week (which is a stiff update schedule!) And like I finished it before I started uploading it...but of course I felt like making a new ending so I'm just...it's a lot of work.

Yet if I were to illustrate those, it's the step after writing. Like comic creators write everything out before they start drawing it, so most comic creators are also writers, we don't consider ourselves that different from you. I feel like I learn from the novel writing community here all the time and I'm super thankful for their threads (especially since I consider myself in both worlds atm) They are more about world-building, prose, and the creative writing process than the comic ones are. We need both. It's the writing community that has encouraged me to take more risks in my storytelling, not the comic community.

So it's like...you don't compare animation to comics and say that comics are hard to make and then get bitter at animators because their work gets more attention. Animation is the step of extra labor after comics (storyboarding, that is)--and comics is the step of extra labor after writing. But, that doesn't mean that everything I write will be a comic, a lot of it will stay in novel format because yo, novels work way better for certain stories. And that doesn't mean we don't respect authors here. Especially since comic creators are ...also authors.

As for what's on the front page--I think Tapas can give novels waaay more representation, and that's been a problem for a while.

thedude3445 2021-03-28 00:36:42 UTC #25

I do think the changes to the front page are part of the reason behind a lot of the promo threads; they're mostly started by new users who don't know how to promote their work effectively, and there's really no place on the site to do that except for the front page, which really helps, and the forum, which really doesn't (I think most users need to be made very aware that you can see how many clicks your links have gotten, and these promotion threads have very few numbers next to the links lol).

The only avenues for promotion right now for community works are staff picks, Most Popular of the Week, "Community Comics" (same as staff picks? IDK) and "New From the Community" (which I guess is curated but I'm not sure how). Novels only get two places--staff pick and most popular--to be featured, while comics only get four. These are extremely competitive spots! So it's quite difficult to promote other than going off-site, which is always a crapshoot for sure (Twitter in particular has the lowest conversion rate ever; nobody clicks on your links on that dang site).

I was extremely lucky to have my romance novel featured on the Staff Pick novels section for a week last summer, and it brought in hundreds of new subscribers with countless people reading and enjoying the story. I'll be grateful about that forever (and I'm really hoping my next book gets featured someday soon ). But if it weren't for that feature, my book probably would still be below 250 subscribers and probably only about 8-9 views for the later chapters (compared to about 40 now). One week on the front page and all that completely changed!

So, anything that can be done to help give readers the option to find the stories they want, or to discover things they may have never seen before, is great in my book. Even something like just a selection of what most recently updated, novels and comics alike, way at the bottom of the front page, would do a lot in my opinion. Anything to combat the forum promo threads lol

Leverance 2021-03-28 00:37:36 UTC #26

@littlelilylee5683 From what I gather, most readers on here still come for the comics, as it's still mostly known as that outside of the site.

On my end, and I've written in a lot of genres over the years, writing appears equally as challenging as a comic. Every genre has its distinct tropes, readers, and so much more. Thing is, is easier to consume a comic than a book. It can make it unappealing for comic readers to suddenly be thrust into the world of books, especially if they haven't touched an e-book before. The skills needed for each craft are different indeed, however, a certain misconception is still here, unfortunately. Sometimes for me, in 18+ chapters are far more time-consuming than one would think. And feedback is different for both comics and books.

You're welcome ^.^

joannekwan 2021-03-28 00:46:30 UTC #27

From this article,

Eighty percent of the content on Tapas is comics, 20% is prose novels.

So yeah, Tapas still continues to be mainly a comic site, but novels are growing for sure. Novels began about 5 years ago, and Tapas as a comic site started 8/9 years ago.

kitkatxk 2021-03-28 00:48:31 UTC #28

I hope @staff sees this and takes you up on your offer. This site is drowning, and if they don't fix it soon, people are going to start bailing ship to look for someplace that isn't trying to drown them and sink them in a bottomless sea.

thedude3445 2021-03-28 00:54:39 UTC #29

Woah I don't think that's true at all! Maybe back on the no-longer-existing Wattpad forums, which were very snippy and mean to each other in the various cliques, but the web fiction community as a whole is wonderful. It's very fragmented, with no one site having a real foothold other than Wattpad, but across the various sites, there's countless great authors who love supporting each other, even if they are the "competition."

And while the novel covers are bigger, the "Novels We Love" section, and the Most Popular section, are the only ones novels are ever featured in for the front page, besides the occasional collection appearance. Most of the novels picked each week are premium, too. And that's not a knock against Tapas, since novels are not popular on Tapas, but it does sadden me for my own lack of art skills lol

Leverance 2021-03-28 00:55:11 UTC #30

@rajillustration I would consider the novel to comic a more sort of manuscript format. At least from what I've observed on these threads. It isn't exactly the same as a book written for the sake of becoming a full-fledged story. A manuscript is often used for visual mediums to know how a scene is supposed the go, the story beats, where the characters and things are and so on (I've studied this in a writing school). So, no, I wouldn't consider those two near the exact same line. It requires different efforts.

The issue I see lots of comic creators and illustrators on here face is that they have not yet gotten the experience many of those who have written for decades have. One of the reasons I rarely read anything on here. If I were brutally honest with my advice to novice writers, I could break their will to continue the craft. It isn't a laughing matter. The reality is that if someone wanted to become a Traditionally Published author, the response could be far rasher. Which I believe is the same for someone attempting to publish a comic through a publishing house but I know little of it. However, I still see a comic creator different from a writer, yes, both create stories, but you've the help of images where we either have to choose to fully describe a scene or tell it. Everything a writer has is their words on a black and white page, the rest the reader imagines in their own heads where we've limited control over what they see (it comes down to their culture, personal experiences, and so on). It's a whole another ball game.

Take note in the prior responses I did specify some comic creators, not everyone on the site. I'm aware an animation takes more labor and often requires more people with specific abilities. It doesn't take away from their effort or respect. However, it remains is a disproportion of writers and comic creators on here. It was originally a comic site after all -- I still feel us writers are only an afterthought.

It's been taken up quite a few times, unfortunately, little improvement on that end. Though it can change in some years when Tapas feels more secure that novels on here can sell constantly on the same grounds as comics. Which takes time marked-wise.

Leverance 2021-03-28 01:04:04 UTC #31

Wattpad is perhaps the more known site like that but I've heard both from Inkitt and Scribble Hub writers that some are immature and downright rude. I've long ago stopped seeing the writing community through rose-colored lenses. Both of our experiences are just as valid however, it shows the huge cesspool that the writing community is. There exist some small good communities although, I would not count on it as a norm. It's constantly discussions that some authors, once they've become past the "guard" and become published they're in the inside circle. And that competition is something I see every year. Even becoming Paid or Stars on Wattpad is a similar competition. There is infighting, drama that ends friendships, in some cases, friends dox each other online. The hate is clear. No matter what side you're on.

franzvanderlinde 2021-03-28 01:29:15 UTC #32

Sorry for not reading all posts (long thread already). From my experience I already know these promotion threads give you a few extra views (and sometimes subs) and no more than that. However, as others have pointed, these few are better than the big ZERO you get from just publishing. I have been posting clockworkely on Mondays for a year, followed every "tips" from Tapas, yet I get very little audience at all (like 10 new subs in a year?), probably because all attention is going to premium content. Promoting my comics in any other channel has been as painful, sometimes I just don't do it for being tired and want to spend energy on my art instead.

Eyre 2021-03-28 02:44:27 UTC #33

This evening, me and some friends have been discussing a very short article, which I found after it was retweeted by Ton Roosendaal of the Blender Foundation. Having read everyone's replies, it seems to me to be quite relevant here as well.

I'll refer to the author of this article as "Dave" from here on out.

Web fiction is a web 1.0 idea at heart, but was always indicative that the web could be something more.

It seems we are all concerned that Tapas is going from what Dave calls "Tools that let individuals publish, but do not seek to amplify them or force them viral, giv[ing] us that natural, human scale" and trying, by itself, as a producer and not a platform to become something that generates that "virality", which Dave (I think quite rightly) calls a "bug, not a feature" of the platform-based web ecosystem. ...hence all the ads, and the increased prevalence of premium series.

But, Tapas is a platform, and it uses that platform exactly to the letter of what Dave says in his article: "luring you with that viral juice boost". Wannabe creators see Tapas' brand and read it as a promise of popularity. Hence the promo threads.

It's no secret that every platform out there, if you want success on it basically wants you as a full-time, unpaid worker. You are after all what gives the platform value, not the platform itself. The platform then is a middleman, that takes some credit for the success of your work, if you get any. All that work you did for free at the beginning can be passed off as "well it was just a hobby then" or "but you have to work hard to get anywhere".
So, they're like an old-school record label, except not nearly as helpful or supportive (which considering the stereotype of record labels surely is saying something).

I see the recent changes on Tapas as indicative of it becoming more like Dave's view of what a platform is, while simultaneously also becoming more like what the larger social media companies want their "workers" to be.

I like Tapas, and having gone from very much a Web 1.0 idea to a Web 2.0 one, and as a highly socially responsible brand, I feel like it's ideally placed to attempt before anyone else to try to carve out what comes next. Personally, I feel as if its current direction lacks imagination and awareness of what its creator community wants. I also think Tapastry as an initiative so far lacks substance - a sticking plaster on a sinkhole - almost a sheepish expression of guilt, acknowledging what is being lost in the present changes. Though, I am grateful for the one or two likes and retweets using the hashtag has got me.

I for one make my comic because it stops me from getting coding dreams. I'm perfectly satisfied with my 18 subs after one year of posting thrice-weekly. [EDIT: Just checked again and it's 17. My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined.]

I'd be intrigued to know what folks make of this. I'm researching online storytelling platforms for my dissertation atm and this is all extremely interesting for me, so thank you for this thread!

Kaydreamer 2021-03-28 05:22:20 UTC #34

There's a lot which has already been said here, and I don't want to re-hash too much of it, but I'm in agreement that the explosion of promo threads is symptomatic of issues with organic growth and visibility on Tapas. A lot of readers, particularly app-only readers, aren't aware that there's a community of creators making free, indie comics here. That needs to change.

The tapas front page is overwhelmed by trendy premium content. It's also kinda... confusing. I'm not surprised that the average reader rarely goes digging deep enough into it to find us tiny creators.

While WEBTOON is... extremely far from perfect, they have been engaging in bringing their CANVAS section to the attention of their readers quite a bit more often, lately. Tapas could benefit from a similar marketing push regarding our free-to-read community comics. Having a prominent "Free To Read" button toward the top of the front page would work wonders for this! (And immediately beat WEBTOON, since, let's be real, who's going to know what 'CANVAS' is supposed to mean unless they've been told?)

@Darthmongoose's explanation of how the 'trending' section should work algorithmically is good, and it could be tweaked to have spaces set aside for different sub counts, ensuring that small comics and novels punching above their weight are seen as often as the bigger ones. At the moment, it's the same comics which are always there.

I'm lucky in that I have been promoted by Tapas once, which more than doubled my sub count at the time. I'm super grateful for that, but also aware that it's not a privilege which can be extended to every creator. Better systems for organic growth are needed. Better on-site marketing for indie comics would help attract more creators to Tapas, and encourage them to pour as much attention and marketing into Tapas as they do into WEBTOON.