Weekly Talk #1; Type of Protagonist or What is overrated in LGBT+ comics or novels?

[luciasilvereyes]

Hi,
I'd like to have a discussion with everyone and discuss your comics or put forward a question to have a discussion given the current situation if anyone is interested or bored.And also because I am facing a technical issue with my program i'm using so in the meantime i have to put off the first chapter or my own comic for while and draw in my sketchbook.But anyway,this week's question is;What makes a protagonist a good protagonist? if you don't like the first question then here's another , if anyone has read LGBT comics whether it be girlxgirl or boyxboy whats one thing that made you roll your eyes when you see it?

I'll start off with,what makes a good protagonist.It really depends on the character but a good protagonist for me doesn't have to be a virtue checklist.It's more interesting if they work to correct their flaws.

What makes me a bit put off in boyxboy( i read yaoi more than it's counterpart so i have no experience with the girlxgirl part of the spectrum) as a general "choice" (not every comic is like this there are exceptions) is having one character reflect feminine aspects passively and the other aggressive and being the "man" in the relationship.This isn't to say this can't be done well and not saying that in itself is a bad thing,but when it's executed poorly it comes off as lazy,and the author being disconnected.LGBT+ relation ships are not so differen't than straight relationships that much i can agree on.However it bugs me a bit when it's written in a way that is.... tacky.The best way I can put this is the character that is the "passive" in the relationship always takes whatever the other does to them without doubt, without question or retaliation.This happens in a lot of the ones I read such as Painter Of the Night manhwa.But this is probably only my opinion and one that I have noticed I could be very wrong,or just too biased so feel free to debate .

[darthmongoose]

For me, a good protagonist needs to have flaws that actually cause bad things to happen.
It's really easy for people to be like "Look! My heroine is flawed! She has a hot temper!" and she does... but when she gets mad and smashes something, she never accidentally hurts somebody, she never has to pay for damages, she never gets arrested, nobody is scared of her, or if they are, they're always presented in a negative light, and any sympathetic characters in the narrative will talk about it and react to it as if it's endearing.
Basically if it's never an obstacle, if it never causes the audience to go "oh no, character, you need to sort your crap out..." it's not really a character flaw.

Honestly I'd say the "masculine gay x feminine gay" thing isn't "overrated" so much as just... overused. It's kind of a problematic trope. It's way more prevalent in BL or M/M though, to the point that honestly it feels like in GL and F/F it's... less common than in real life?

So something that I find annoying about a lot of GL stuff, being a lesbian, is how much of it is two super-hot, busty femmes. Like are butches a stereotype? Yeah, but they also actually exist, and some of us are kinda into them, or might be soft-butch or "chapstick lesbians" ourselves. Give me some damn butches! I wanna see some big, tough, short haired ladies, or like, cool Sue Perkins types who are funny and wear blazers! They can be chubby, they can be muscular, they can be tall and gangly- I don't care, they're all gorgeous! But since a lot of GL is made by men, they present "lesbians" that straight men are into; young, big boobs, perfect hourglass figure, long hair, hang about in their underwear etc. I feel like GL made by actual queer people is extremely different from GL made by straight dudes to the point they're not really the same category.
But again... femme x femme isn't overrated, it's just overused.

[luciasilvereyes]

Same,giving characters "flaws" but never following through with what the flaws are puts me off.It's not effective if you give a character a flaw just to make it so they aren't called a Mary Sue but not following through with that flaw isn't going to help make the character any better.Not to say people don't make this mistake,I probably made this mistake and I haven't even noticed I did so.

100% agree with the whole "big bust ultra hot females" being a "representation for what people perceive in girlxgirl butch are stereotyped to be something that they probably aren't.That's a bit irritating since I have yet to see a tough butch type female portrayed more correctly.I feel that sometimes this may be a result of classification by people who aren't part of the community but what they observe.It's quite different between what a person who's been through what they experienced in the LGBTQ+ community and someone who's lived as a straight individual it's annoying and I do hope that we'd get to see some improvement and more accuracy in lgbtq+ characters.That would be something I'd want to see because it would be amazing .

And true ,masculinexfeminine is overused.Which bugs me especially when the characters don't really get fleshed out towards the end of the story but I just write it off as reading too much into smut most of the time.

[magnavarra]

it is a really wide topic, but here are some key features for me. Protagonist is the one that acts, the one that has goal and want to achieve it or fails if it's a drama/horor. The one that progress through the story and advanced himself, he should change somehow otherwise what for was that story?. tHe one that causes compassion, the one you wanna be like/with. That also reffers to antagonist - the one wich pushes story progress but from the other side.

as to lgbt- i am a BL lover - well to me the hint is jealosy i guess. I mean girls do like boys mostly, or just cute things mostly! (i know you can love bloody gore and whatever - but its just easier to explain that way so you can that expand it to your situation). So girls like boys and want them for theirselfs - so when you see an average looking soujo who has like 10 super sexxy guys around her you envy her, you dont like her - you'd rather see boys alone. but this is romance so here you have boy love.
And those trope pairs are just a way to get most of audience - cause some likes passive cuties and others like agressieve brutal guys, If your characters are the same type they will blend and be less interesting to the readers - remember 3 musketeers (they were 4 actually). I liked Aramis mostly and you?

[Iris-Grimoire]

It's not quite protagonist in every case and isn't actually exclusive to LGBT+, but it's a bit of a turnoff to see one person in the relationship be completely detached from reality and presented as the only person who can make the other see the fun in things. I think this is the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope? Can't recall.

It's more than one person in the relationship being wacky and dramatic to the serious and boring other, I've dropped several comics where the bubbly person just does lolrandom things at every turn or even harassing people/being pushy on strange situations and at no point anyone sees it as anything but a youthful spirit just trying to break the other out of the shell. I just keep expecting them to turn out to be manipulative but it seems to be the author's intention for them to be just that - random.

[indagold]

Cause straight girls consume it and you gotta have the bottom/top, masc/femme or the cringe "man" or "women" in the relationship. I know most young lgbt people have literally 0 clue about lgbt history but those dynamics were enforced by society for years to stereotype or fetishize same sex pairings or at the very least make it palatable to someone who wants a straight pairing and have bdsm all rolled into one without actually implying it.

Also outside of that I can't stand lgbt stories constantly playing it safe to the point its a pain to read since there's 0 conflict. Like come the fuck on, I remember back in the day when lgbt stories used to be fraught with conflict to have a gritty and painfully realistic outlook on existing in a society which hates it but now every lgbt story I see is so painfully saccharine and boring it's almost an insult to the predecessors of the genre. Queer media used to be about breaking down walls of conformity and purity and now its literally become the opposite.

[NickRowler]

I think something that annoys is when the MC is a perfect snowflake who's flaw is that they are surrounded by people who hate them for being gay. And the love interest is the only non-bigoted person who comes and save MC.

I guess in some ways I want characters to be a bit more dynamic, like giving the MC more characteristics. It would also be more interesting if characters were not so b/w, like maybe having a friend/family member who may not be a full ally but they care for the MC. And also having other LGBT characters in the story which are not love interests.

[AbelDraws]

The protagonist topic is quite difficult, I haven't figured that out yet by far.

I'd say that, if you choose the story to revolve around them, they need to:
- Not be actively annoying to read/watch.
- Be interesting enough that you care at least to some extent about them.
- Have connections with most of the cast, have the story be more interesting because they're there.

The first one is a requirement to be a 5/10 protagonist, but the second and third points are what this topic is actually about.

Regarding the second point: The mc can not be everyone's favourite character, and that's completely fine! They can't be and you shouldn't try to get everyone to like them, they just need to be interesting, have flaws but also good traits that make them complex and interesting to follow, grow through the story, etc. Many people covered this super well above already - and also why consequences are important, that'll add a lot of interest to the story and the character's development.

Now, the last point is one I really like to think about. The main character is the one we know the most about, we see how they interact with the other characters, how they affect the rest of the cast's life... I think it's important for a protagonist to do that. They're the core of the story, they're what ties it together, so it just makes sense that they have interesting, deep connections with most if not all the cast.

The story will end the moment the main character's journey does, so it's cool to see how all the characters' lifes have changed since the moment they met them up until the story is done, how the mc's doings have affected them.

All the characters can develop because of other reasons that aren't the mc's doings, of course, but the mc's actions should, at least, be a small influence in that development (if possible, of course. If those characters lived in the past or whatever then there's nothing to do there).

I'll be keeping an aye on the thread to see if there's some more advice on the topic <3 (and not saying anything about the lgbt+ overrated topics because I really can't think of anything relevant enough to add lmao)

[DualDragons]

Ok so i know basically nothing about lgbt+ so i'm going to leave that empty

As for the protagonist, what i always like to see is their motivation and reason for their actions throughout the story. Especially if they go on a journey of some sorts. Knowing one's motivations helps me understand the character a bit more and i feel this is really important for the protagonist. Rather than them be like; "ok so i'm here, i train and kill the bad guy woohoo!" That's kinda bland don't you think?

Also it's totally fine if the protagonist is not on good terms with everybody! Some characters are just not going to get along with your mc instantly and that is fine! Makes things more interesting as a dynamic duo perhaps?

[luciasilvereyes]

Hi,
Interesting I haven't exactly seen this trope play out but I'd imagine it sucks, especially when it seems the story has potential but the author puts more effort on one character over the other.Though even if that effort is making them as random as possible.But yeah, overly "extra"characters can be annoying if they're created without a purpose other than to be over the top.

[luciasilvereyes]

100% agree, oh boy this is something worth discussing. Yeah its true with most stories I have read, same or similar plot with little emphasis on conflict and 98% porn.Which I'm guilty of reading as well but there is a bigger problem in that it doesn't go and explore what people have to deal with the standards that society has put out there. I've seen some that had potential to do this but not one that has gone through with breaking down the standards of society.The manhwa I mentioned earlier was one where I was suspending my belief on whether or not it was historically ..accurate.Perhaps there were lgbtq people in the past and in some cultures this was something that happens but I had the question "could this really go on without people questioning?"The comic I was referencing was Painter Of The Night which supposedly happened in an era in Korean History,basic premise is an openly gay royal has the hots for the main character who's working as an erotic painter.Make of that what you will.

[luciasilvereyes]

True, in real life we have people who accept us, people who doubt us and people who hate us.This trope is kind of a play off of average couples as well.It's quite unrealistic to have only one other person love them for who they are.It plays off of the trope of "the one" ,"the one" lover who is the only one who could love them and no one else will.Which is kind of dumb but I can see it from both sides, but realistically yeah we have people who do support us, not everyone hates us just because we're gay,bisexual,asexual or what not.

[luciasilvereyes]

Awesome points, when you brought up the first point I immediately thought of a few "characters"that just was irritating to watch from start to finish and thought they could have been better.I thought of, despite it being old and "cringe-worthy" Bella Swan and Anastasia Steele........oh boy..... annoying to watch is one word I just could only describe them to be. Bella is a blank slate with dependency issues and Anastasia is.....dependency issues embodiment. If the characters are "annoying" in my opinion a few things went wrong. The author has made them to be a self insert of themselves, their traits are nonexistent or they do exist but it's only one trait that becomes their character.Flaws are nearly nonexistent,and its a difficult thing to do as an author I admit but a character thats unbelievable is a boring, and at times annoying character.It's hard to care about a character that gets everyone to immediately like them which is second point, if they have traits, flaws and work to earn other characters respect it draws interest to them.The last point, if the character has a major impact on the other characters...if we remove the main character how would the other characters react and thats something I actually would consider as well .

[luciasilvereyes]

Its okay, feel free to answer one over the other ^^;
Yes a bland character is one that lacks motivation. Motivation is the key force in a story because without it ,everything becomes meaningless and we don't invest in it. If they go on a journey ,I ask "well why should I care that they go on this journey?what if they don't go?what happens if they don't?"so thats quite interesting to think about.And I am totally agreeing that mc's who don't get along in the beginning are interesting af. XD

[Maps]

I know what you mean about Painter in the Night, but unfortunately a lot of the Lezhin Manhwa end up having really tropey same-sex couples (like the BL... em... rapey couples) and are pretty much just created for the porn. It's kinda amazing how many new manhwa on that site, which take place in a current time, are still going with the whole sex focus with the one character who takes all the abuse and enjoys it and the other is just sitting there telling them who they are and what they enjoy? (I cannot stand when the sex scene has a character always commenting on the other's arousal to tell THEM what THEY are feeling 'oh you you must be enjoying this look how wet you are' especially when he's been shouting the "no's" and "waits". SPARE ME PLEASE). And same with the typical setting and type of couple: The Office boss/ their employee couple, the co-worker couple that can't work their job without a rendezvous in the back room every chapter, the rich guy that picks up the broke guy to live with him. I don't mind sex in a story at all, but at least have a real and solid story line and scatter the sex chapters out so people can enjoy a story. It's hard to find a truly amazing story line or relationship between protags on their site, however... there is a lot of nice art. At least you can preview at least one or two eps for free to guess what they're going to be like before spending money. They have some decent romances, and despite it all, I've enjoyed a few of their BLs.

I personally enjoy protagonists who are relatable to myself and the people I've met. I like reading about real connections between people (romance and friendships and relationships between family members - all whether good or bad). I also look for protagonists who can be funny, serious, can succeed and fail, can be determined but can have weak points... kinda hit every part of what every human goes through. I find it hard to read works that have characters that just have one sort of personality. Like when a character is too comical and can't hold any real serious conversation, for the life of them, without shouting some quip or something to ruin the mood. So I look for some type of variety and depth to characters and their relationships.

[indagold]

I don't even think a story that explores discrimination is the issue, I just want a story with actual conflict and stakes. Everything i've read plays it so safe that its just boring, why root for characters if everything they do is so mundane and predictable.

[Freemints30]

I understand the feeling completely. There's so many LGBT+ comic, novels ect that really is just;" OWO cutey cinnamon bun has a wittle crush owo :3", okay whats the main conflict," some one was mean :c grrrrr". Like I tend to gravitate towards dark messed up stories in general especially when it comes to romance so after a while Im suspicious when a story advertises its self as LGBT+, with some exceptions. I do enjoy fluff occasionally but really allow your "cinnamon bun" to get really messed or really emotionally hurt in your story then I would really enjoy it, breaking cuties is my favorite genre ever.

[brusskel]

What bothers me about LGBT+ relationships and characters is that some people really make being gay their entire personality. Like I'll read something that involves as LGBT character and one of the first things they'll say is something among the lines of "Oh man I am SO gay" or "I'm not gonna do this task that literally anyone can do regardless of sexuality because I'm s o o o gay" even people in the LGBT community do this with their characters in their stories and I'm just here like :/. Especially in relationships where the only important thing is that "look at us we are two boys and we are so gay and OoOoOooOoOo he is staring at me a certain way uwu blushy blush I am so h o r n y now is it obvious that I'm the bottom yet? Look at my big feminine eyes and feminine body shape" that's just mega gross to me. Or how like one side just blindly follows their s/o without any question because their "sOoOO in love" like dude do you not have ANY MORALS?

Your sexuality shouldn't be your only reason for existence, man. Like, they're just people like you and me who happen to be a lesbian, or gay, or ace, or whatever. In a relationship this shouldn't be the case either like in gay relationships they both can be masculine most dudes are and that's OKAY! And if that dude is feminine that is ALSO OKAY but if he's only like that just to be the girl in the relationship I might go ape.

[Iris-Grimoire]

Honestly, you don't even need to get super dark and traumatic to have big conflict too. It's starting to become a trend, but there's a bunch of LGBT+ stories out there about bands/content creators for example, where the conflict comes from the regular art struggles, working as a team, maybe the places they need to go to get by, or even having to learn to work together after spending an entire life solo, and developing feelings for the other messes up those already-hard-to-manage things. Those stories might not all be interesting to me, but it's a really nice thing to keep note as a writer that one can have the situational and relationship confict become intertwined instead of all of one side or the other.

And of course, also works with scifi, fantasy, mystery, etc. You can have a fish out of water that needs to adapt to a new culture and whose relationship might or might not be accepted in a strange land, or a journey to get a Mcguffin that creates an extra problem when the couple realize they might not see each other again afterwards - do they make an effort to stay together even if it delays their important quest, do they plan to challenge the problem afterwards, etc etc the strength of a conflict really can be more than "oh no mean hypotenuse in our love triangle is a bigot booo", by making every other issue worse or more complicated.

[luciasilvereyes]

Ah I see,I never knew that about Lezhin. Interesting. I feel the same,I don't mind sex in a pot but it depends on the person reading it.There's times where I do want to just read mindless smut but there's times where I favor a good story.

As for protagonists ,making them seem real is the point to go for.A character does have to possess a form of development ,otherwise the story flops and ends up being disappointing.And holding onto one personality for the entire story is not going to keep readers invested,