Well-intentioned but unhelpful criticism

[keii4ii]

Say you get a critique that's intended to help you. But the suggestions they make are irrelevant to your goals, or worse, would lead you astray from your vision for the project. How do you respond to that?

The most common advice I see, by far, is "just thank them and move on." But I find that kind of... insincere in a way. It's like a thinly veiled "I don't want to talk to you about this anymore because you obviously don't get what I'm trying to do. Bye!" ???

Of course, getting defensive is no good. You don't want to do that. But are those our only choices? A) Thank them and say nothing, or B) Get defensive?

What about C) Engage in a constructive conversation about your goals?

I know that when I give someone a critique, I would rather they choose C). I don't like criticize-and-run. I like talking to other creators about what we're all trying to do, and how to do it better. But is it just me? And even if it's not just me, is there a way to do it right, and a way to do it wrong?

What are your thoughts on this?

[keii4ii]

I'd like to clarify that not every disagreement is worth expounding. Minor aesthetic issues, for instance. There's not a lot of room for constructive conversations with those. So yes, sometimes thanking them and moving on IS the best option. I just don't think that is the case every time.

[TAMAnnoying]

When I comment on friends writings or other genres of story tellings, I find I can question character motivation and even their characters personalities.

I will often tell them "I dont understand why this happened when it would have been way easier for them to do this" or "I hate this persons guts and i hate when their on screen."

now.... sometimes I do wish that they would take my opinions in consideration and change things around, however... I dont think they should. When I make comments on stories its often because I just want to express how I feel. I hate this character and often I complain about them cause I don't understand if im supposed to hate them. If im not then id often feel they should change things to make them more likable or at least lest seethe worthy.

But you see the problem is personalities >I< dislike.... often can be personalities other people adore :v So yes, I would agree with you in saying that maybe instead of just getting defensive or ignoring comments about it, it could be more beneficial to both reader and writer if they discussed the reasons why they don't like something about the comic and why they think it should be changed, or why the writer thinks it shouldn't... granted this can always ruin the story if its a story deception. ex. "This person acts this way because important plot elements discovered later on"

I think if both people are sure they wont be defensive about their own side they should engage in conversation! BUT! I know people that can't be anything but defensive :v so eh. Roll with the punches as they come.

[guilhermecahu]

Honestly, I would just thank and say nothing.

Some people don't know how to provide proper feedback, and in my opinion, it's OK. We can't expect every single person to know how to do it. And we only know that because we looked for info about giving and receiving feedback in the past. Hopefully, in this case, it's well-intentioned criticism - better than a nocive text - and I think that engaging in a conversation about this depends on the time you have for this. Sincerely I don't think I'd engage in such debate, this is just my choice. And just thanking someone doesn't mean you're ignoring their opinion. Just imagine the creator may not have time to talk about that, for example. And saying "thank you" is much much better than saying nothing. And by the viewpoint of the reader, if the creator doesn't care about their opinions/feedback, it's the creator's problem then. OK, some people may not like feeling "ignored" or they'll expect more attention for what they wrote, but it's impossible to please everyone.

Long story short: I, myself, am not interested in convincing the reader that the elements presented in my story are important for this or for that. I prefer to show them through my pages rather than telling them. And as I have a considerable part of my story already written, if I may change something, it'll be only for future pages (usually when it's regarding art) because I don't have time to redo what is already finalized.

[Cielle]

I agree that it's better to engage in conversation. Webcomics are a unique medium because unlike novels, for example, you don't get the whole story all at once. It wouldn't make sense to only read the first chapter of a book and then base your whole opinion of the rest of the book (that you haven't read yet) on just that one chapter. But webcomics aren't books (obviously XD). A character choice might seem odd at first, but it will make sense a few chapters later. In a book, it only takes a couple hours/days of reading. In webcomics, you might have to a few months or even years for that choice to make sense. Since readers don't have the same insight into the story as the creator, if they offer criticism on a plot choice that will make sense later, I think it's in everyone's best interests to discuss it. (e.g. creator: "I can see how this part is confusing, but I promise it's not an oversight; it will make sense as the plot develops.") On the other hand, getting feedback as you develop the story is awesome; as a creator I find it extremely helpful to get criticisms on my comic. Because I wrote it and know exactly where the story is going, I may (and certainly do!) overlook things that are confusing to readers. Having questions is good; being confused is not. Once you've discussed your vision with someone, they can offer an even better critique. ("Oh, that's what you're going for? I see. In that case, maybe it would be more effective if you tried ___.")

Personally, I always try to engage someone in conversation after a critique (for example, asking them to be more specific about their feedback). It never hurts to ask them to elaborate! Instead of just "your paneling could use some work", tell me what it is that could be improved. Panel flow? Size? Are there too many panels on one page? Whether I am giving a critique or replying to one, I try to spark a conversation by asking questions.

Of course, getting defensive is no good. You don't want to do that.

I agree, getting defensive is not a good way to react, especially in situations where a critique was requested. I think the defensiveness comes about when a criticism seems unnecessarily harsh/rude. Fortunately, that doesn't happen often here on Tapastic. Everyone is pretty nice here. Tone can be hard to convey via text, and I think a critique can sound harsher than intended.

On a slightly tangential but related note, I think there is another kind of unhelpful feedback: the overly positive. While getting positive feedback is always nice, sometimes positive feedback is unhelpful or even detrimental. For instance "I really like your story!" is great to hear. Thanks! But why do you like it? "it was interesting." Well, cool, but can you elaborate? I suppose this only applies in situations where you've specifically asked for a critique, but it's something I see happening often (not necessarily to me, just in general). I understand wanting to spare someone's feelings, but there is a nice way to offer feedback. If you tell someone their comic is perfect when it isn't, you aren't really helping them. If you're really worried about it, tell them something their doing well to soften the blow, so to speak. "Your characters have very distinct personalities! I like that they aren't perfect. But I think you could work on their facial expressions. Here's a helpful tutorial!" Honestly, I would rather get a blunt critique than an overly nice one.

[abbastudios]

You never say you asked for a critique, however my answer is based on asking.

When you request a critique, you have to be prepared for comments you don't want to hear. They may be positive, negative or useless. The person giving the critique only knows what you put before them, not what is in your heart or what you were thinking about. They are not supposed to know that. If you have to explain your objectives or intentions of the art you created, then you can be very certain you have failed in communicating that with your art.

You also have to accept, that everyone who looks at your art, will be looking at it from a different viewpoint or perspective. For instance, someone who draws cartoony or very stylize art will have different comments about realistic art, then the people who draw realistically.

You asked for a critique, so it is not insincere to thank someone for giving a critique. Whether you think it is valid or not. Someone thought enough of your art, to take the time to comment with the intention of being helpful. And that is what you should recognize and appreciate. It would be very ungrateful for you to say, “Well that’s not what I intended, so what you say means nothing to me.”

When you request a critique, it's only polite to thank the person for the critique, whether you like the crit or not.

Another thing to realize, is that this is not a classroom situation, where you know everyone has been instructed on how to give a critique. In this forum environment, people aren't even the same age or have the same level of maturity or education. So you will get comments from people that don't know the difference between criticism and critique or when to be silent. I don’t know how many times, I’ve seen answers to requests for critiques that say, “Well, you draw better than me.” It’s senseless and doesn’t help the person at all and wastes time. Because where’s there’s one comment like that, there is more to follow.

It also bears pointing out that your title uses the word criticism. So when I started reading the actual text and discovered you were talking about critiques, I was very surprised, because criticism and critiques are not the same thing. Criticism is only finding negative and hurtful things to talk about. Critique is designed to comment on the positive and the negative, While it may still be hurtful to swallow, the intention is to be helpful. A critique also usually includes a solution.

You also mention wanting to have conversations, which is a whole ‘nother animal. A conversation is an exchange of ideas. If that’s what you want, then don’t ask for critique. Clearly say, “Hey, this is what I’m trying to accomplish. Am I successful? If not what do I need to do? If I am, can I make it better? Has anyone done this before? etc. etc.”

I’ve given plenty of portfolio reviews at conventions, as an instructor and as a colleague. Sometimes, I ask before I even look at the art, 'Do you want it hard of soft?' The ones who answer,”Hard” are the ones I respect, because I know they are serious. The other ones are more concerned about their feelings, than their art. The ones who want it hard will also learn more.

At the risk of seeming to pat myself on the back, I want to share this story to make a point. More than once, years later, I’ve had artists come up to me and tell me I gave them a critique, which they thought at the time was very harsh. Later they realized, I was right and told them exactly what they needed to know and then thanked me for giving them that critique.

Put your feelings aside. What you may feel is not helpful now, may change 6 months from now when you think about it.

All critiques you receive are not meant to be used. You have to balance that against what you're trying to achieve. You do that balancing act on your own, not in public. One thing you can be sure of, if you keep hearing the same thing over and over, then that is not just someone's opinion. It is a fact you can't ignore him have to address in your art.

So when you ask for critique, don't defend; don’t explain; don't justify and above all don't whine. Accept all critiques in a graceful, professional manner, which is quietly and with a, “Thank you for taking the time to comment.”

[keii4ii]

So when you ask for critique, don't defend; don’t explain; don't justify and above all don't whine.

I think you are looking at it from one and only one angle, which is the "here's why my mistake really is not a mistake" angle. That's called getting defensive, which I agree is pointless.

Rather, imagine something like this: "wait, you're suggesting I do A, but I was actually trying to do B. Obviously I didn't pull that off right since it wasn't clear. What do you think I should do to do B right?"

I, myself, am not interested in convincing the reader that the elements presented in my story are important for this or for that.

I'm not talking about justifying your mistakes through your response, which is what I meant by "getting defensive." That's entirely unproductive. After all, your work should speak for itself as you said.

Maybe the key lies in admitting that if the critic misses your point, it may very well be your fault for not making it clear/effective enough. That's not always the case, but it's a very valid possibility you should always consider whenever you find yourself disagreeing with a criticism.

[AnnaLandin]

I either go with simply thanking them and moving on, or telling them that no, that's not what I'm trying to do with this story, but thank you anyway. Thanking them and moving on is a valid response in cases like this, because no matter how kindly you respond, some people get VERY defensive when they perceive they're being told they're wrong - and I'd rather not upset anyone who hasn't really done anything wrong.

I rarely have the time or energy necessary to engage in a long, detailed discussion of my exact goals with a comic (I'm too busy drawing the comic), but I do have the time to tell them "Thank you for taking the time to critique my story, but I am not trying to do [A] with my story, I am trying to do [B]. Since that was not obvious to you, I clearly have some work to do. Thanks for making me aware of that!"

... Mind you, I haven't gotten much in the way of "misdirected" constructive criticism ("misdirected" in quotes, since if I got that critique, I've obviously not been clear enough in my storytelling, so it's still a valid piece of information), so I can't really give you any examples of how I've reacted, but this is pretty much what I'd do.

[keii4ii]

"Thank you for taking the time to critique my story, but I am not trying to do [A] with my story, I am trying to do [B]. Since that was not obvious to you, I clearly have some work to do. Thanks for making me aware of that!"

I like that response. Even though you're still moving on, it shows a lot more openness/acceptance than "Thank you for your feedback! -end of the conversation-" which is what I think of when people say "just thank them and move on."

[doktormostro]

Well i don´t usually ask for critiques outside my inner circle of friends in the business, because of bad experiences with people that saw an excuse to throw me their #### and even then i tought "i asked for it" and answered with a "thank you" and forgot about them. And no, my friends don´t just make good comments, they´re just objective about what we talk.

In the other part, i don´t usually make critiques too, because people tend to be defensive and in some cases arrogant. So i just make comments when something really bothers or likes me, without expecting a response, wich even in good comments i didn´t get so often and seems a waste of time. And thats why i don´t usually do it.

But i like to get comments, who doesn´t? And when i got them i try to answer to them when they´re more than a single word, and gives me something to response.

[zoonland]

Thanking for the critique and for taking time to read my comic are the things I frequently do, especially when they are irrelevant or have a totally different vision of my project. I think that adding something may lead to misunderstandings (even if you're well intended too).
Getting defensive is a bad thing because it creates a bad mood that leads to having "enemies"... nobody needs more hate! Especially on internet, where it's very easy to get it.
Engaging in a constructive conversation may be useful and good; it always depends on the person you are talking with, but that's a good thing too because it's always helpful to have a third-point of view that you can't have doing all things by yourself.

[SpavVy]

I don't really say much back to them about it, I basically just thank them for the criticism or suggestions but I do tell them it wouldn't work out with what I have already planned.

[infectedbloodcomics]

Let me start by saying that I need to improve big time and I'm doing my best, so I always very happy to get critiques and criticism alike. I actually listen, because there's always something to learn, especially at my level. Still, I'm a busy person and I am confident enough to know that I can't and won't ever spend my time second guessing what I'm doing, especially from the writing point of view.

So, it's happened just recently. It was a requested critique, and let me also point out that this offered to go more into a more detailed discussion about his critique, if I wanted to. Now, he completely completely botched about a million things about my comic. I thanked him, and politely asked him to wait until the end of the part of my comic he had been reviewing, so we could get back to it. At that point, I highlighted some of his most obvious mistakes along with a couple of assumptions he made that were obvious guesswork (he didn't know the final events of that part), explained a bit more about the characters, and asked him to please tell me how he'd see the events evolve. This time, it was plain as day to me that he was more interested in giving his own spin to my story than getting what I was doing, so I just thanked him again and moved along. He meant well, but didn't really help much. Still, it was a requested critique (since he offered), and it was fine.

Should I get any unsolicited criticism resembling this guy's, I would very likely thank the person, politely express that I really meant to do something else (without spoilers), add a brief explanation of why (if I felt like it), and move on.

[keii4ii]

This time, it was plain as day to me that he was more interested in giving his own spin to my story than getting what I was doing, so I just thanked him again and moved along.

Yeeeeah, sometimes there comes a point where further conversation is just unnecessary...

Getting defensive is a bad thing because it creates a bad mood that leads to having "enemies"... nobody needs more hate! Especially on internet, where it's very easy to get it.

No disagreements there!

[windikite]

Take critique with a grain of salt. If you ask for critique, expect the worst but hope for the best. Take who they are into account, not every critique is equal. If they seem like an arrogant or angry person you should just forget about them. Manners sell your information. If they are both polite and clear about what they say, and it is on an issue that can be viewed in its entirety then you can be assured it is valid. Anything less and it has no integrity.

If you didn't ask for critique then just ignore them anyway since you give yourself enough crap and it's your happiness that matters. You are the Creator and your opinion matters the most. Just because they don't get it doesn't mean it was poorly done, they could just be dense or didn't see it in it's entirety.

I had someone give me critique when I didn't even ask for it, everything from my drawing style to how I can improve. I'm sure they were well intentioned since they were polite but it borderline hurt me because it caught me at the wrong time. Key thing here, don't give out critique unless asked for it. There is a difference between it and being an ass.

[abbastudios]

You must not have read throughly what I wrote, since you accuse me of looking at this from one angle, thereby trying to dimiss my statements.

I cover that angle you are talking about in paragraph eight..

I cover many angles. maybe you did read everything, but only one stood out for you.

[AngieVX]

I think if you really like the style of a person who wrote critique and respect their opinion, you can ask direct questions. But some feedback is actually not helpful, not because it's bad or good, it's just not helpful for a certain artist.

I think the most important quality in critique is being motivational. It shouldn't be long, shouldn't embrace everything. When I write a critique, I don't expect anyone to follow it, so "thank you" would be enough for me. But if "thank you" seems not enough for you, I think you can say that it was encouraging, and that you're happy that someone cares about your art or story.

[gateofselidor]

When people give me criticism that would be impractical or just not possible to implement, I tell them honestly and thank them. I wouldn't want them to think that I was dismissing their suggestion without proper consideration, so I'd rather they know whether or not I'm going to use it and why.

[JigokuNeko]

All criticism is helpful in that it gives a fascinating glimpse into the reader's mind. It's amusing to see what sets people off (in good or bad ways). I am sometimes mystified by some of the comments but ultimately I appreciate people telling me what they think. Most of the time--even if it is negative--it affirms my choices.

Aside from the statistical side though, there are times when I will go into a debate with the person who commented:
1)when it's obvious they wanted the characters/story to go in the opposite direction and are insistent on it. I just succinctly explain that is not my vision, those are my choices and in the end that is what makes me happy as a creator to do. My goal is for the readers to have fun but I do not owe anyone a personalized story. This doesn't make me angry or anything but it's sometimes good to be firm.

2) when they misunderstand my beliefs upon an issue that I feel strongly about. I do think the story speaks for itself but there are points that might be obvious to me while some readers might interpret them differently. If it's something I absolutely do not agree with I will speak up (at some length, which is rare with me) because I do not want people to misunderstand my intentions.

[getsuart]

As I said one day, the people who are "well-intentioned" but ended to have unhelpful criticism were always somehow agressive and treat me like trash (BUT they think they are well intended). You know, the type who's going to tell you you're a pathetic bullsh*t and you should more focus on x ou y things.
I sometimes try to go with the C solution, but they don't listen: only their point of view count, you have to listen and don't try to communicate.

So I often so with the A. It's as simple as this. I thank them, still try to use what they said and move on.