What if Tapas made a Fanworks genre?

KytCordell 2020-05-13 19:08:39 UTC #61

If spin-off categories refer to spin-offs of your own work, then yes it would be a great tool.

KytCordell 2020-05-14 18:58:15 UTC #62

Stop pressing, the reply you want isn't good for Tapastic. Ratique's answer was the correct one as far as liability and PR. They can (and should) evade/ignore the topic unless confronted by entities that matter (i.e. Apple or IP holders). They have stated they will remove copyright infringing content that is brought to their attention, and now should refuse to look too deeply into the matter because it benefits Tapastic not to do so unless further incentives are brought up.

Note, phrasing something as "we will remove copyright infringing content" is less inflammatory as far as PR goes specifically because it doesn't state in clear terms to children who draw fanart that "we are banning your fanart."

NickRowler 2020-05-14 19:14:16 UTC #63

The only thing I would want that would be connect to this is the ability to turn off revenue for a single series. I want to upload an older fancomic to this site but by doing that, I would have to turn off revenue for all my original works. My other option would be making a new account which seems annoying.

skicoak 2020-05-14 19:18:22 UTC #64

I'm not of a mind to think it benefits ME, as an original content creator on this site, that Tapas could/would be in the business of ignoring some violations while strictly enforcing others.

I would like them to actively remove copyright infringing content with the same energy they addressed "mature" content.

No one has made any sort of logical argument on how it benefits original content creators that 440+ Steven Universe fanworks, or any other type of fanworks, are "tolerated" on the site.

nostalgicroxas 2020-05-14 20:32:41 UTC #65

I second this. If they want to act like they don't do anything about it until it's reported to them case by case, then the site could be overrun over night.

skicoak 2020-05-14 20:38:16 UTC #66

And considering they already have their process/mechanism in place to filter out "mature" content, we can't be talking about sizable increases in work for the staff. If you're already checking projects for content, adding an additional violation to flag doesn't make a big difference in workload.

KytCordell 2020-05-14 22:12:17 UTC #67

(1) You probably don't bring in enough viewers or revenue to matter.

Things that generate views and revenue that haven't been explicitly deemed a liability benefits the entity. This isn't just about Tapastic. This is basically every platform. To think it works differently is incredibly naive and also entitled. Even if fancomics aren't directly generating revenue, they generate user interaction and more sign-ups with the site--many of which will stay on the site and engage with other content that they can leverage for revenue.

(2) The way fanwork is "tolerated" actually hurts no one and helps everyone.

Tapastic does not and will not "feature" or draw attention to fan content for the legal reasons I already outlined above. Therefore, it gets no promotion and only acts as a mechanism to bring users to the platform. Many of the users will stay and then look at other content.

Example:
1,000 new accounts sign up in order to read and comment on a Steven Universe fancomic or some crossover shit.
400 of these new accounts end up interested or at least curious enough to venture into the rest of Tapastic to look at original content that generates revenue.

Those 400 new accounts are a possible audience for all original content creators. They came here for the fanwork but might stay for other work. Does it matter that someone ends up finding me because they came here first for Steven Universe? No. Why should it?

If people liked your original content, they would be seeking it out of their own accord. People who are interested in Steven Universe wouldn't suddenly stop being interested in Steven Universe fancomics and be interested in you just because the site didn't have Steven Universe content. They'd just go onto another platform to look for what they want.

KytCordell 2020-05-14 22:22:26 UTC #68

Why...? Why do you even care? Weren't you just previously supporting the idea that there should be some genre tagging for fanworks? Now you want it to be religiously filtered/banned?

As I said to someone else:
If 1,000 new accounts sign up in order to read and comment on a Steven Universe fancomic or some crossover shit.
400 of these new accounts end up interested or at least curious enough to venture into the rest of Tapastic to look at original content that generates revenue.

Those 400 new accounts are a possible audience for all original content creators. They came here for the fanwork but might stay for other work. Does it matter that someone ends up finding me because they came here first for Steven Universe? No. Why should it?

nostalgicroxas 2020-05-14 22:29:26 UTC #69

I have in no way supported it past opening the thread to draw the discussion outside of the thread it was started in. Past that, the only "thing" the site could do would be to add the "Fanworks" tag or genre and only if that's an avenue they want to go down, much like Ao3 is aimed at fanworks. And, as I said before, if they did go this direction, I would quit the site. My stance has never "changed".
My opening statement in this thread is identical to now: I would not stay on the site if it becomes like every other site on the internet that's just fanworks.

I also think you're example there of 400 new accounts being a possible audience for the original content creators is amusing. Most of the people I know who go to consume, specifically comics, that are fancomics only want those and only of their current top fandom. They have a voracious appetite for the stuff and by in large, will not look at anything else unless it is a fanwork for a fandom they're already in.
The only difference I've seen personally is that at Comic Conventions, the attendees are more willing to look at original creations, but that doesn't necessarily translate to sales or readership. While at Anime Conventions, they want just their top fave + fanworks.

KytCordell 2020-05-14 23:53:43 UTC #70

You said this in reply to another person:

I feel like they'd have to implement a "Report this series as a fanworks" button for readers which... might be a lot to trouble
But I do really like the idea of fanworks being absorbed as a "shadow genre" like you said.

And this comment, agreeing to another comment supporting tagging/organization of the fanwork.

I agree with you. The fanworks are already here, and for those who don't know the fandom, it'll be handy for those people. And it'll be good for organization.

But I do think having it as a checkbox or secondary genre could work. Maybe as a flag or something, so it's not even part of the genre coding.

If this does not reflect your full opinion, sorry, I was not aware of other posts that may more fully represent your take.

Anyway, regarding fan content, why does it matter to you that the site hosts fan content? If it isn't featured or visible on the front page then it is basically invisible unless you go looking for it. I've had a very different experience with people and fan content. You can generate a sizeable userbase as long as the fandoms you participate in are adjacent to your original work. But even if that were not the case...why do you care? I don't understand why people are bothered by the mere existence of fanwork on the same platform when it doesn't actually affect them lol.

skicoak 2020-05-15 00:09:34 UTC #71

I am neither naive nor entitled.

The entire gist of your argument is built upon the benefits to the site that "ignoring" fanworks can provide...an argument that at least had the merit to be about art when the "mature" creators were making it. If it didn't have enough merit then it clearly doesn't have the merit now.

Does it? Because your numbers are merely hypothetical but there's a very concrete line of discourse where Tapas talks about it's limited resources and again about a direction it's aiming for.

Neither of those are served by casting a blind eye on something everyone in the debate knows is illegal.

They already have to filter content on the site. They don't lose substantial time by expanded search criteria now. But if they don't actively address it now... It can become a substantial problem later. It's a rough analogy but you don't want to treat termites after you discover all the damage...you treat for it before it happens.

I don't know if you were making a point or just insulting me. Lol.

Either way, my BALLER status on the site doesn't change the validity of my viewpoint.

nostalgicroxas 2020-05-15 01:08:14 UTC #72

Fanworks have many other sites all across the internet, and garner large amounts of attention on sites that were initially not intended for that: deviantART, tumblr, instagram, to name a few. There is no need for them to be on this site in large quantities.
Put simply: if Tapas has the intention that "this is not the site for them", then I agree and will stay on Tapas. If Tapas changes to being one of support for fanworks, the site will very quickly become overrun with that content and not be worth my time.

KytCordell 2020-05-15 01:14:17 UTC #73

I am neither naive nor entitled.

I say it's naive and entitled because you frame this around "how it benefits you as an original content creator." The idea that you matter at all, which you build your argument around, is incorrect.

My numbers are hypothetical, and even if no one stayed at all for other comics, merely having them exist on the platform still doesn't actually hurt normal creators if they don't get visibility or revenue. Unless the problem is that Tapas is somehow running out of server space or something, that doesn't seem to be the 'resource' issue at hand. I think human resources such as moderation staff, the funds they have for creator profit sharing and incubator funding etc. are far more likely to be the shortage. I argue there's likely a benefit to original content creators for having them around. But even if there wasn't a benefit, there is no harm. It's like being upset that something happens to exist on the same platform.

Neither of those are served by casting a blind eye on something everyone in the debate knows is illegal.

They already have to filter content on the site. They don't lose substantial time by expanded search criteria now. But if they don't actively address it now... It can become a substantial problem later. It's a rough analogy but you don't want to treat termites after you discover all the damage...you treat for it before it happens.

Except termites are hard to get rid of. If they're already as aware as we suspect, they could resolve this in one go if it ever comes up. Moreover, they get to throw the IP owner under the bus as the bad guy for PR reasons. "Apple is making us do this."

I don't know if you were making a point or just insulting me. Lol.

Either way, my BALLER status on the site doesn't change the validity of my viewpoint.

I'm stating a fact, if it feels insulting so be it. And it does change the validity of your viewpoint when your viewpoint partially rests on the idea that they're supposed to care about benefiting you.

DarJodo 2020-05-15 01:27:55 UTC #74

Mommy and Daddy are fighting again.

But seriously, this one is feeling a little lost. Could someone please summarize the different points? Jodo suspects there are more than two sides to this.

skicoak 2020-05-15 02:08:08 UTC #75

Ah, but is it?

Tapas says they're here for us original content creators...and I do number amongst them. So the transference is tangible. You can pick any brick out of a wall and say it doesn't matter individually...but if you value the wall, you have to value each of the bricks.

I don't know...would you say Tapas is better of serving honor by association...our guilty by association?

If you're selling the site as the host site of original and creative content from a diverse body of creators...then that's the pitch. I wanna be part of THAT.

But if you're selling it at as a site that "overlooks" fanworks, then invariably you are asking ALL of your creators to accept degrees of guilt by association. It doesn't make us accessories to any crime but it's not going to help anybody's reputation either. You think creators relishes the potential to be heavily promoted on a site that's reputation could slip into a hub for fanworks? Aren't the real creatives running from those sites that embody all that is Fan-fic?

Well, yeah.

They're not abiding by the rules that other original content creators do. The first tenet of their fanwork is to break the LAW then Tapas's RULES. If other creators are being careful to provide content that meets the standards of the site while advancing the art form...why would anybody be "okay" with that?

It all really sets a pattern for behavior. If they're breaking one rule, do you think the other rules matter to them?

Sure, that's one way of looking at it. It's pragmatic enough.

Or they could go the higher road, run off the counterfeiters and established rule-breakers before it's in response to bad PR. Be proactive in the name of original creative content.

KytCordell 2020-05-15 04:04:48 UTC #76

Tl;dr they value the bricks that directly make them money or at least have high rep or engagement. Otherwise you're pretty much just taking up server space, no more or less than a fancomic with the same number of images.

As for the other stuff, I personally don't care. Like I said in my initial posts, as far as liability goes, either ban it or ignore it, either has its pros and cons. The only thing I'm against is monetizing or acknowledging it.

Tapastic didn't make a big deal about mature content either until Apple started making a fuss. I'm sure if someone ever does make an issue about the fan content, Tapastic will take the necessary measures. In the meantime, I'm telling you to stop pestering staff because they aren't going to reply, you're not going to have some grand gotcha moment, and they have valid incentives for carrying on as they will whether you like it or not. Most people don't know enough about copyright law to give a single fuck about any of this.

I'm a highly pragmatic individual and I frankly do not care whether or not there are Undertale comics somewhere on here. I don't consider fanwork any less valid or high quality by default. I don't consider myself holier than thou for being an original creator. Many of my favorite stories and comics are fanworks.

There's no real debate to be had as I don't have a stake or opinion--other than not wanting Tapas not doing something insane like adding a formal genre for fanwork. It's just cringey watching you try to have some grand gotcha moment with the staff, but carry on if you want. I only commented here in the first place because a friend asked me to clarify legal concepts.

skicoak 2020-05-15 04:35:30 UTC #77

Actually...I asked a question. Then @ratique answered it. Then I did nothing else until YOU directly called me out...go ahead "counselor", check the timeline. I'll wait.

And in regards to your frequent attempts at "telling" me what to do.... for someone giving out legal counsel, you sure do have a weak grasp on what your authority over me is in regards to my having an opinion and stating it within the confines of the forums rules.

Tell me to stop...tell me to carry on....make up your mind "counselor".

KytCordell 2020-05-15 05:12:05 UTC #78

To be honest, given what I now know about you, I realize the error of my ways. By the time I said "carry on," that meant do whatever you want because that's probably what you're going to do anyway. Sorry for telling you what to do. I clearly should have known better. Hopefully the first bit was at least informative to someone out there.

skicoak 2020-05-15 05:19:18 UTC #79

To be honest, given what I now know about you, you give crappy legal advice.

KytCordell 2020-05-15 05:19:31 UTC #80

Honestly, everything past my first post laying out the rules regarding copyright was pretty much a waste of everyone's time, my own time included. I have no idea what half the replies are even supporting and I don't care. There are essentially a lot of different ways to go about how to handle there being fanwork on the site, most of which have pros and cons. This is because fanwork is so hairy was far as what is technically illegal versus what is pursued. The only course of action that is inherently stupid, all cons and no pros is making a genre for it and or monetizing it. Beyond that, Tapas can quietly ignore it or they can ban it. The point is /quietly/ doing so if they're going to tolerate it. Given Ratique's reply here, they're handling it just fine. Anyway, feel free to DM me if you have questions about copyright. This is the first time I've posted in the forum in like a year and it was at a friend's request. I probably won't be checking back for replies.