What is worse - a negative stereotype or a positive fetish? Gay trope edition

[Likri]

Ok, this'll be a real can of worms, so let's keep this civil. But after thinking over some recently read comics, as a queer person myself, I decided I needed more insight.

It's easy to say that a homophobic stereotype is bad, but what about the "positive" representation, that due to genre might not have it's heart in the right place (be it a fetish, or queerbaiting, or diversity for brownie points done badly)? I went though my teens reading a lot of BL, and though I see how problematic some stuff in it can be, I can't say that I'm not fond of some of it's more fetish tropes. As well as some, likely, intentionally homophobic stuff in old shows, like gay coded villians - sure the trope is bad, but I liked those characters since I didn't even know the word "gay".

Both ends of this stick are bad in their own way, but it's not like we live in a cultural vacuum and from the start had everything figured out.

I'd like to hear from the LGBT+ community on their personal take - what is a deal breaker for you and what is roll-your-eyes annoying, but bearable?

[joannekwan]

Ooh, nice discussion topic!

I suppose I'll start off by saying it can be mess to untangle both those things sometimes.
For example, a lot of popular BL have detrimental stereotypes in them. Even looking past the predatory behavior and other overtly 'problematic' traits seen in many of them, there is a prevalence of BL couples basically parroting a 'typical mainstream-presenting' heteronormative relationship. There's always a guy that's the 'girl'/uke and a guy that's the 'guy'/seme.

And sometimes a fetish can go too far. Like some fujoshis will go so far as to ship real life men who have 0 interest in each other and make very uncomfortable comments to them. Or they even harass actual gay couples in public, asking way-too-personal things of them.

[vothnthorvaldson]

joannekwan said it so well, I don't think I have much to add.

Maybe one thing: at the end, I'm really in two minds about BL, because too many have at least some negative tropes or some amount of stereotyping (not all! Just too many for my tastes!), but also, I really like reading stories about topics that do not directly concern the author (even if I can also see how it's a problem when it is as unbalanced as it is with BL, with a majority of straight women as authors). But as a generality, I like a different point of view, and I hate this idea that you must directly know your subject to write about, I think it's an extremely dangerous idea (although you certainly need to do some serious research to speak well about less familiar sujects).
All that is assuming said BLs as having a straight female author, I know it's not always the case, especially nowadays.

At the end, I do what I do for any comic, I support those I consider good, irrespective of who is the author and what is the genre.

[erudenedure]

I think fetishization is a problem, because it makes queer relationships seem inherently sexual, which isn’t true. This also fuels parents refusing to talk to kids about LGBTQ+ relationships, because it’s tied up with adult-oriented sexualization. (This is also why people were arguing about leather gear at Pride making the event unfriendly toward minors. It’s one thing to just be sporting leather, but an entirely other thing to bring the “fetish personality” - like leather puppies - around kids.)

Because of institutionalized homophobia and history, there’s a lot of past media relegated to “adult-only status” simply for showing queer relationships.

Queerbaiting is annoying, but – since it’s vague – it leaves characters’ relationships up for interpretation. I can usually deal with it. The one time it becomes a huge problem is when it’s obviously done to pander to queer folk, get their support, and take positions away from definite queer representation. (Like Ariana Grande getting to sing at Pride since she might be queer, which takes the opportunity away from definite LGBTQ+ artists. Or companies that say they’re LGBT+ friendly, but fund anti-LGBTQ+ organizations or politicians.)

Queer-coded bad guys are kind of problematic. It’s hard to accept yourself as queer if all your representation is negative or made into a mean-spirited joke.

So, I usually just roll my eyes with these, but queerbaiting that takes opportunities away from out LGBTQ+ people makes me think twice.

[Likri]

Yeah, real life harassing is just so ew. But as a reader, how do you feel about a positive, yet tropey couple - as you've put it, coded as heteronormative? We'd all like better stories and representation, but at least that trope can be about happy couple dynamics - way better than the more western way of burying your gays trope, or having the mainstream idea of such love stories ending up tragically or starcrossed.

[Likri]

I think fetishization is a problem, because it makes queer relationships seem inherently sexual, which isn’t true.

I wasn't thinking more in the kink fetish way (may have worded it badly), but like in a fangirl "oh my they are totes gay and therefore cute and sweet and make me warm and fuzzy inside" way. Not inheritaly sexual, but fetishized over your 1 quality.

[joannekwan]

Of the two scenarios, I personally prefer if a good couple dies tragically or don't get together in the end.

Perhaps that's due to my own experiences as I have an acute distaste for fluff and 'lovey-dovey' material, regardless of the characters' genders/sex. I'm also a sucker for bittersweet endings.

Not saying they're objectively bad, but I like to avoid that in the media I consume.

[HGohwell]

Take with a pile of salt because I can't find the source now for the life of me but there was a study I saw that said a lot of these "cishet teenage fangirls" writing and reading BL often this was their first exposure to gay content and how it can be accepted, even if problematic. It also had an interesting part about how many of these girls who considered themselves cishet in their teens later identified as LBGT once they were more aware of themselves and often move onto more mature (in style and plot, not content) stories as they do. (I'm still searching I'll post the link if I can locate it again).

One of the interesting tropes to me that lots of people point out as harmful is the whole straight guy/girl who suddenly falls for this one guy/girl despite never feeling like this before. Now, I can only speak for myself and my group of friends, but this how a lot of people figure things out because of the assumption that you're straight until proven otherwise. The idea that you're straight, and you're sure you are you just haven't found the right person yet, until something clicks. And this doesn't stop just because you've figured it out, of course, with the tons of people who will tell you "you'll change your mind once you find the right person (of the opposite sex)".

[erudenedure]

I meant to touch on this, but I was so wordy in my last post.

I feel like fangirl fetishizing makes queer characters into something they get to consume, like how men objectify women porn stars or lesbian porn tailored to a straight man's gaze. So the character is LGBTQ+ in a way that appeals to the fangirl and, sometimes I feel it's in a way fangirls can project themselves onto the character. (Which is probably why the manly/seme and girly/uke dynamics come into play.)

I don't necessarily think fangirls are bad. But a gay man's opinion would probably be more worthwhile here. I just know, when I was a "yaoi fangirl" in the early 2000s, the way some other fans objectified the characters made me feel uncomfortable.

When the fetishization of queer relationships becomes extreme - like shipping real-life people - then I feel like they're just objectifying queer people.

[Likri]

I can get behind that! I first exposure to the idea of same sex romance was though anime in my early teens, and though I wasn't questioning myself at that time, it still was kind of a "wait, that's an option?". It just didn't cross my mind before, since there wasn't any good or bad representation that I could "get" what exactly they are talking about. I mean sure, now disney's Hades is totally the "gay best friend" in my book of tropes, and he's fab, but then it was "well, that's just how he speaks as a character".

[erudenedure]

Take with a pile of salt because I can't find the source now for the life of me but there was a study I saw that said a lot of these "cishet teenage fangirls" writing and reading BL often this was their first exposure to gay content and how it can be accepted, even if problematic. It also had an interesting part about how many of these girls who considered themselves cishet in their teens later identified as LBGT once they were more aware of themselves and often move onto more mature (in style and plot, not content) stories as they do. (I'm still searching I'll post the link if I can locate it again).

That sounds like my experience and sort of assumed it was the same with some others. (Didn't even think about there being a study about this!)

[HGohwell]

@Likri & @erudenedure This was a lot of my experience as well. Perhaps it's not so much of an issue, but when I first discovered BL in my teens I'd never considered it an option. In those days, I didn't hear much about LGBT movements, it wasn't all over TV, it was written out of dubbed anime (Sailor Uranus and Neptune were "cousins") and there weren't obvious complaints about things not being inclusive, so it had never crossed my mind until I was exposed to BL and realised it was an option. The guy didn't have to be with the flat love interest who was there just to yell his name.

You would be amazed what people have time to study, did you know fish of the same species in different areas are struggling to breed because they communicate in slightly different variations? If you scroll down to the refences section here there's a lot of interesting pieces to read:

Yaoi fandom

[Wumbl]

The way I see it, fujoshi are not inherently a problem at all. A lot of them are LGBT themselves, or support the lGBT community vehemently. Star Trek shippers were a part of pride parades during the 70s and 80s!

The problem is when rabid yaoi fangirls take it too far. It's when they start harassing or discomforting IRL gay couples (like my partner and me) and when they start shipping real people together without their consent. Most fujoshi really do not do this at all. The concept of being a fujoshi was founded in being an LGBT ally really, so when so-called fujo are homophobic or harm LGBT people they become a problem for everybody.

And that's coming from me, a fudanshi :^)

[joannekwan]

Yeah, it's unfortunate how radicals within a group can sully the good the majority stand for. Like TERFs for feminists.

[xabelmind]

I agree with @HGohwell

All this thing about protesting against this or that story because of the representation it means for the community is new.

The LGBT+ community never had as much visibility as it has now, but there's still not enough queer content.

All those stories that go from the positive representation to characters that play the bad guy and unhealthy relationships also happen in cishet stories, but there's so much content there that it balances. It doesn't seem like the unhealthy relationship, or the evil guy represents cishets as bad people with horrible relationships.

This concern about representation will end when queer works have the same level of visibility as cishet works. When people starts to know about LGBT+ at early ages cause their parents and teachers tell them.

With this I'm saying, I don't think artists have any fault on this. Works around fetishes, BDSM, unhealthy relationships, queer characters as the bad ones, etc. will continue to exist as it does in cishet content.

The thing is that parenthood does their thing of teaching their children to be critical with they content they consume.

[Wumbl]

Exactly!

As far as I'm concerned, the only wrong approach to fandom or media is to treat it and real life as the same. The same principle applies to so-called "loli-cons" who are only attracted to the "loli" characters because they resemble real life kids and who actively discuss "lolis" and real kids as if they're the same, and antis who insist people that write dark stories are a danger to society or that dark stories turn people violent (normally at the expense of people with real PTSD funnily enough).

[Maps]

I feel strongly about this with real life people. Like the BL/Yaoi fan fiction of One Direction and BTS members were everywhere on A03 when I first joined. Like, these are real men that you are sexualizing and I can’t stomach that at all.
One thing with BL and Yaoi genres that I really appreciate is a good plotline outside of the sexy stuff. Showing the relationship build and grow is important for me, instead of just watching the creator rush through to get to the next sex scene.

[vothnthorvaldson]

Real life people made up ships disgust me immensely, but I don't really have a strongest disgust when it does not correspond to the people's sexual orientation; however, that may be only because I'm pan, because I can imagine how disregarding people's preferences is even more disrespectful. I simply don't think of it right away.
Actually even if the ship is true in real life I find that very creepy to write on it. Yuck.

[JRHoch]

Well, I have a problem when the smaller blond guy says to the bigger dark-haired guy, "Please be gentle." When I read this, I know I'm reading BL written by a female, because no gay man in all of recorded history has ever said, "Please be gentle."

[joannekwan]

LMAO