What is worse - a negative stereotype or a positive fetish? Gay trope edition

[Pan]

I'M DYING

[indagold]

fetishization is much more grosser because its done under a guise of lgbt uwu positivity. You're suppose to side with these people in politics and yet they're destroying the community secretly and covertly and no one speaks up about them because they're afraid of gatekeeping or they pass it off as "their heart is in the right place"

This is a serious problem in all minority communities honestly. People put up too much with "allies" who are creepily obsessed with their status. People who hate lgbt people at least make it known. You know what they side with. When the people who are supportive of you are doing this it makes you feel sick inside. These people are suppose to be the "good guys" but really they are no better.

[TAMAnnoying]

Im going to be honest this kind of topic is always a bit complicated for me. I personally just don't like the romance genre let alone the BL genre (i kind of view them as the same) Both have troupes that I often find uncomfortable. Things like the stalker or the underdog that has to prove to the love interests that "no you love me! not your current boyfriend. clearly." both hetero and homo sexual relationships can be romanticized to the point where it gets a bit too toxic for me even with the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. I don't approve of people who write these types of things with the soul desire to cash in on diversity or "ooo look at me I'm so progressive i have the gays in my comicz" Its a bit disheartening to see a group of people being used for the purpose of making money. Especially if facts are misused and mishandled (one example would be 50 shades).

The very few media I do sub to when it involves romance tends to be stories that actually treat hetero and homo relationships with actual weight and love. I usually stop reading when I realize the writer is simply writing for kicks and views. But i can't exacly say its a bad thing since i know quite a few readers who are also just kind of in the story for kicks. whatta you gonna do right? For me as long I can tell you actually care I'll usually enjoy reading but again- Romance isnt really my thing to begin with X3

LIke @erudenedure said- both in hetero and homo relationships, the stories tend to focus more on the sexual attractions of people rather then like... the hanging out and enjoying each others company part X3 and it can color an odd picture.

[azzy-m]

To me, a positive fetish is a lot worse. Mostly because a lot of people will be able to tell when something is a negative stereotype of a gay relationship while a fetish (such as the seme/uke trope people are mentioning above) can, to those who don't know a lot about LGBT relationships, paint a picture that a relationship between two men or two women is inherently "different" and are usually sexual than a straight one.

Eh, I don't know. I hardly read BLs nowadays. I think I've all but stopped reading the two BL Comics I'm actually subscribed to on Webtoons. But that's how I see it I guess.

[punkarsenic]

well, theyre both shit, arent they? they both reduce queer experiences to bits for the consumption of cishets (primarily), and doesnt speak to our true experience. what i want is authentic, varied, nuanced queer experiences in media

[JRHoch]

Every time I see the word cishets I read it as fishnets.

[Cavechan]

Don't have much time to write this so will try to make it as succinct as possible. People need to stop equating LGBTQ comics with BL comics. I feel they are just completely different genre. Honestly, I love the concept of BL, grew up with it, am a fujoshi, but I actually don't read much BL comics since I prefer more realistic characters and oftentimes find them to be unrealistic characters. But even then, I don't think that's "problematic".

I remember years ago I was speaking with other fujoshi who were against gay marriage. They read BL about guys doing all sorts of sexy stuff but were against gay marriage. They just didn't equate the BL couple with real life people at all.

To say it's objectifying, well, it's a whole conversation in and of itself because what is objectifying? Not only that, but why does it matter? Does it actually help/hurt anyone?

People are allowed to have fantasies. If they don't understand the difference between real and fantasy then yes that can be problematic, but for the most part, unrealistic characters aren't really a problem and I don't see how they are "objectifying".

Okay, need to run now since I have to get ready for work.

[JRHoch]

Thanks for your thoughts. It's always good to get a different take!

But is the BL that you used to read the same as the BL that now exists?

I surmise that a lot of gay/bi creators use the BL tag to list basically gay coming of age stories or gay college-age stories since there is no lgbt category and creators don't want to get buried in romance, which means less exposure to people who are willing to read same-sex content. (Many who want romance comics are not looking for gay stuff, they want traditional het romance.)

So is it possible that BL is actually now two things, what you described, more of the fantasy/fetish stuff, and the newer stuff created by younger gays?

[vothnthorvaldson]

I think you are right there in your last paragraph (sorry, I can't cite), but what I don't know is if this is known by the average person who knows about BL.

I'm still extremely reticent to use that category. I don't blame lgbt people for doing it, and I appreciate the exposure it can give to their story (I understood putting their story in a category less read is counter intuitive and lower the readership, which is negative for 'true' lgbt representation (I don't like using the word 'true' here, I don't think there is A truth, but you'll understand what I mean with the context).

But still using this category is difficult for me. I'm writing an extra comic to go with my main one, that should go in BL but it will go in romance, I think.

[JRHoch]

I think it all depends on your goals. If you want to reach the most people possible who would like your story, put it in BL. I did romance as an experiment and it didn't work for me. Views and subs were way down. (Many of my followers are also gay men and they turn to BL, knowing it's an imperfect but more effective vehicle for reaching content they want.) However, maybe things will work differently for you.

On Tapas, I don't find much of a difference in the content between women creators writing gay romance and bl. They are both romanticized and often don't show an understanding of the way many gay men view the world. (And that's not their intent most of the time.)

It's kind of like healthcare in the USA. Some want to blow it up and create something new, others want to fix what's there.

[Maps]

Anybody watch the Skam series (Nordic/European series)? I know people liked it because the gay couple in the series was a more realistic depiction than was you see in, well... general media.

[Croik]

On Tapas, I don't find much of a difference in the content between women creators writing gay romance and bl. They are both romanticized and often don't show an understanding of the way many gay men view the world. (And that's not their intent most of the time.)

This is my experience as well. Over the decades I've read yaoi, shonen-ai, slash, BL, MLM, gay erotica by and for men, and on Tapas specifically, you can find stuff that identifies as any one of those things. You'll find poorly written tropey fiction under ANY of those labels, and any genre for that matter. There are comics on here with a BL label that are the most thoughtful, character and plot driven, heartfelt stories out there, with nothing more mature than a kiss. And then there are the smutfests that most people think of when they see BL. And everything in between! The tag covers a LOT more ground than people realize.

As for OP, I feel like it's also important to differentiate between 1) authors who are enthusiastic about and honestly supportive of queer romance, but lack the skill and experience to portray it in an authentic way, and 2) Queerbaiting, which by definition is creators/corporations who AREN'T supporters of queer romance. I would much rather support a creator who is a true ally but needs to take a course on character development, vs a faceless media corp trying to get a few extra dollars without hurting their brand. And will DEFINITELY take 1) over 3), homophobes including stereotypes for jokes.

[vothnthorvaldson]

I think it all depends on your goals. If you want to reach the most people possible who would like your story, put it in BL. I did romance as an experiment and it didn't work for me. Views and subs were way down. (Many of my followers are also gay men and they turn to BL, knowing it's an imperfect but more effective vehicle for reaching content they want.) However, maybe things will work differently for you.

On Tapas, I don't find much of a difference in the content between women creators writing gay romance and bl. They are both romanticized and often don't show an understanding of the way many gay men view the world. (And that's not their intent most of the time.)

I actually never thought of that aspect!
I was thinking of using romance simply because the genre in itself is broader as it could mean any romance, in term of who constitute the partners, but also in term of tropes (that last one, at least as I thought people were perceiving what BL is).
I never though it this way, never thought of what would the reader assume anyway, when seeing my comic in a list of other romance comics.

It's certainly something I have to keep in mind, thank you for bringing this aspect to my attention.

[joannekwan]

(Many who want romance comics are not looking for gay stuff, they want traditional het romance.)

LOL too bad. I'll stick my obviously-two-guys thumbnail in their face any day!

I've also had a couple of readers tell me that while they never normally read mlm romances, mine managed to rope them in, a feat I assume would never have happened if I put my story in the BL category. (Granted when I started this series there was no BL category. But I'll stick to my guns.)

[JRHoch]

Amen, brother!********************

[racarter]

According to some people, they’re both the exact same thing - which is stupid. I would know, I’ve been on the receiving end of that kinda bullshit.

Negative stereotypes are obviously worse.

The real conundrum is when the negative stereotype IS your fetish. I’ve seen and read enough gay porn, catered to gay men, to know a lot of gay men have fetishes regarding negative stereotypes.

So “worse” is really just a matter of opinion. Hell some people even find negative stereotypes to be positive representation while those same people find positive fetishes to be the worst possible thing ever done in the history of ever.

Long story short, people are dumb and you can offend anyone with anything. On Tumblr people got offended by a blank panel that mentioned what jokes are okay to make so you don’t offend anyone - in other words, nothing. And people still got offended by it. I’ve seen other Narcoleptics get offended by that one character in Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigalo, but I found it funny.

On the subject of romance - eh, it’s not exactly a realistic genre to begin with anyway. Romance, or romanticism, in general tends to exaggerate or idealize things. It’s not supposed to be realistic. Tho I personally avoid straight up romance stuff - I only read BL if something else interesting is going on in the plot. Anyway, BL is more of a well known category online - it makes the content easier to find if you’re actively seeking out gay romances, you know? If you just label it as romance people are gonna go “oh it’s a boring old het romance - pass”.

Yeah, so that’s all I got. Lol