What is your opinion on Generative AI?

Confessions that will make a lot more people despise me even more:

I have begun to feel distant and even dissociating from the more 'artiste' types. The types that at every turn would thumb people down for taking 'shortcuts' from what they deem as inappropriate from the traditional ways of skillful art. And that's sad, because they're the types of people I hung out most with during my earlier years.

Now hear me out first, this might sound crazy: Have you ever considered that to a lot of people, 'Art' was never about showing off skill, nor caring about whatever lazy technique it was to copy something?

And that they just wanted to recreate whatever it was because it looked or sounded cool. Or to a lot of them, it was just merely a way to express themselves. Haven't you as a child copied or traced something from your favorite books or characters? Let's be honest, sure it felt nice to be complimented on your skill as a kid, but to a lot of other kids, it was just about participating and not being left out.

How did it come to this?

Just a while back, my little niece posted an image in a group about her favorite show/ characters. (am unfamiliar with it, I'm afraid). It was made from an image generator, and at no point did she say she made it. Note that she didn't use the word 'art'; since even at her young age, she already knew how people would respond if she mislabelled it as such. She just wanted to share something as a fan. And let's just say it got real toxic, real fast. 'Colorful language' with profanities that could have merited an age-rating. And from the avatars, it came from fully grown 'adults' too.

There was a time, once upon a time; when a portion of art was just about the freedom of expression. Nowadays, it sometimes feels that everything has to be gatekept under the pretense of 'skill' or 'everything should be done manually or traditionally'

Have you ever considered that a lot of regular people have also grown tired of these 'artiste' superiority attitudes as well? Posts like "My art isn't that good, but it sure is a 100x better than whatever garbage you just posted" won't win people over to your cause.

And they just seem to be making even more enemies. At first, it was the terrible AI hands; but that got fixed or easily fixed now with LoRA Diffusion models. Same with automatically changing the poses of characters in your own original artwork. Now, programmers have coded automated 'process videos' in 'creating' an artwork. (it's still not that good… yet) And unlike actual aesthetic improvement, they simply did it out of spite to 'holier than thou' artiste.

How could these 'artiste' not see ? That for every infographic and post they make on 'How to spot AI', they're just actually speeding up machine learning.

My first 'disconnect' with art was during an animation elective. Nothing fancy, just the basic bouncing ball, walking, and talking mouths. Long ago, when dinosaurs still walked the earth, there was this hot new thing called Macromedia Flash. Me and a couple of other students wanted to show our teacher this fancy new automated in-betweening (tweening) feature. We were actually surprised at his hostile reaction to it. Even when we said that students should learn the basics first and how to do manually.

Fast-forward a couple more years, and I've seen a fair share of my artist friends get viciously harassed and ridiculed for a myriad of things: photo references for hands, using a grid system is 'tracing'. Tracing over poses of blank 3d characters. Tracing over 3d backgrounds. Using 3d backgrounds. Manipulated photos for backgrounds. Utilizing distort/skew/warp instead to redoing the lines, Using the symmetry tool to automate the other side. Am seeing the same pattern for personally-trained AI models and pose editors now.

And the worse part is? Most of these attacks came from artists not even better than them to be honest.

To make it clear once again, this is not about using other's people works to train your own model and passing it off as your own. That's just stealing. And Tapas is very clear that you can't use any generations in your artwork.

If people actually took the time to learn, they would see that you don't need a fancy server to train anymore. You can train and generate offline and locally, on your own pc, using only your artworks. Outputs are even better and more consistent this way since the only inputs are your own.

It's true, a lot of generated images are trained from stolen artworks. But always remember, there are those who use it that are personally trained models… or they may just be regular folk that wanted to share or express themselves.

People conveniently forget that humans and artists learn and improve from copying other things. And now that the machines started its first baby steps in copying, it either disgusts or terrifies us. A bit hypocritical there, but that's just humanity.

It's a fun little thing to do when I'm bored, to see what it can come up with, but I really hope the popularity dies down, because if it doesn't the art and animation industry could be in a lot of trouble. And I hope not since those are the things I'm focusing on in school rn. But, it is also rlly funny to see people not understand what is and isn't AI generated.

By that very same logic, don't you think that the snarky, snobby, downright hostile comments from 'artiste' are insulting and off-putting to regular people? People that are already apathetic to their plight.

As crazy as this might sound to you: I am actually trying to help. I'm trying to make these artistes understand that they're not doing themselves any favors. That they're not winning people over to their cause (which they could really use more public support to be honest) when they immediately go rabid when normal people, who doesn't really care about 'being an artist' use generators just to share and express themselves.

Regular people label aritste as jerks when they immediately gang up on some little girl that just wanted to share something because she was a fan of a series or character. Somehow, one way or another it always ends up turning into a toxic cesspool, even when posters never labeled them as theirs or 'artworks' for the matter.


And I don't need to make a case. Already said am distancing myself from the more pretentious 'artiste'. You may not believe this as well, but there are open-minded artists that I highly respect, and I'm proud to call friends. They don't immediately go red-eyed just because someone muttered A.I. or go on attack mode if some random person posted a generated image on socials. They don't have a 'nuke everything', 'you're either with us or against us' point of view.


And yes, I fully support actions to prevent data scraping. I have even educated those artist friends on how to use Glaze to cloak their artworks and avoid AI style mimicry.


But your biggest problem right now is that kind of superiority/ privilege attitude to the general public. It's baffling why they can't even realize why they're not having enough public support, when they're openly antagonizing them. Picking on/ shaming regular joe and janes, who doesn't care about being an artist in the slightest; just sharing a generated image for kicks.


Do you really think "educating the public" will work when the ones they're supposed to support are antagonistic to them? . You know better than that.

That's clearly said by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. A lot of local models are now open-source. No company 'owns' them. You can check the code yourself if you know how. Don't let blind hatred for AI prevent you from educating yourself, and that's why a lot of artiste aren't taken seriously either. And the absurd amounts of data needed is ancient, old news. You wouldn't be able to run it offline just on your computer if it still required petabytes of data. They're a blank slate, they can't even run anything unless you feed them something.

@tacticalglasses, I understand where you are going with this but I find it very misguided. Art is a skill. It takes time. Tracing over 3D models does not. Dropping in 3D backgrounds does not. Here is an example I always use. When I see a painting that I find impressive, I instantly find it less impressive if it's digital. You can literally "control Z" yourself to a masterpiece. Oil on canvas you cannot. So one is more impressive than the other. Yes you can feel all you want about how to be nice about it, but one takes more skill. What I do agree with you is the art world is full of people that are pretentious. But I find these people are usually into the scene of art, not the skill. The biggest critics of art can't draw a stick figure but still want to be in the scene. These people rightly should be ignored.

And AI still has a massive problem for commercial work. Repeatability and client tastes. If the client loves everything about the picture, but needs it altered in some way, you are basically out of luck. Until they can figure that out, which they will one day, good artist won't have to worry about AI.

I wholeheartedly agree.


Am not saying that handmade, real crafted artworks should go away or not be supported. Never said that. Far from it. Some of my most used items and prominent decor are handcrafted customs from amazing artisans in Etsy or locals. The best artists will never have problems getting jobs. It's the assistants, the inkers/ the effect makers/ background specialists are the ones having the most trouble.

Am just saying, there's a part of Art… before all of this tribalization; that just meant freedom of expression for the common man. And that a lot of artists seem to forget that, and it's that provaction against the public who would use tools and methods they deem inferior; causing that disconnect and lack of support. When it was never meant as a show of skill for regular people -- they just wanted to share.

Let's just agree to disagree on a couple of things:

One. In my and artists friend's experiences; the biggest critics are other artists themselves. You yourself find that traditional media is more impressive than what digital artists and painters do, right? Even when a lot of them are classically trained and have more than paid their dues in decades of turpentine smell and barely-hanging on easels.

Two. Very curated (and only 1 source artist) LoRAs don't have that consistency and repeatability issues anymore. You can now draw in changes and modifications that happen almost instantaneously now. All done offline, in a local machine. They even save separate components to individual layers now. (lineart/ blocking/ color/ shading/ clothing/ foreground/ background) so modifications are easier than ever. You don't have to believe me, and the people who use them to make their workflow much faster now doesn't need others to believe them either.

I just want to correct one thing. The artwork is more impressive, not the artist. There are lots of the best 3D animators that do fantastic 2D animation. I find their 2D stuff more impressive as 3D is far easier to do. It's the art not the person doing it.

Okay, but...you do realize you're not talking to your friends right now, right?? You're talking to people who don't know you, and you're taking on this smarmy attitude with the inherent assumption that we won't listen, won't care, and have already decided to attack you (which isn't happening, as far as I can tell).

That's not conducive to your argument...if you're gonna act like that, why talk to strangers at all?? You know it makes more sense to simply not engage with an issue on a public forum if you feel like hostility is that inevitable...not everything has to be a public crusade if you can't handle it. And I think talking down to people like this is a sign that you can't handle it...you don't sound trustworthy, you sound like you're roleplaying a cyberpunk villain...

I really don't care if it "will work", my point is that it's the right thing to do. Attacking artists in general (who are largely an overworked, underpaid, disrespected population; one of the few who are encouraged by their own industry to perform slave labor at every level) is not the right thing to do.

Flaming randos who post AI (even AI that is inherently harmful) isn't the right thing to do either-- 9 times out of 10 they just see 'funny picture', they don't know what's wrong with the software they're using. But, the more trustworthy sources they hear that bother to educate them instead of attacking, the more they'll be able to learn and continue the cycle, instead of simply choosing a side (like you've clearly done...I'm sorry, but you can't claim neutrality while blaming people who are being victimized for their own suffering, and choosing to simply ignore how widespread that suffering is).

I'mma let you in on a secret: you don't have to be an "artiste" to jump on a bandwagon and tear people down on the internet. I'd bet any amount of money that most of the people you see participating in that aren't even professionals. But it's professionals whose livelihoods are actually at risk-- you're basically telling freelancers who can't make a living anymore that their concerns don't matter and don't deserve consideration, because of 14-year-old Twitter warriors they can't control.

Bullying has always been a problem. Mass art theft on this scale is totally new, and causing far more damage to people who don't even know what AI art is and don't get the option to just exit the discussion. Is it really that hard to believe that some people would rather focus on the latter??

Would you mind listing some examples of what you're talking about? Y'know, proof that I could actually look into...?

I'd love to get on board with what you're saying, and incorporate it into my arguments in the future...but you're not explaining yourself. You're just making empty claims.

If you really believe that easy, ethical alternatives to OpenAI and all its data-harvesting cousins exist, why aren't you telling people what they are? Why are you not spending your energy on advertising them, rather than ranting about "artistes" who don't understand you?

I advertise my free art software (https://getpaint.net/2) any chance I get, as well as any other software I believe will help people when relevant discussions come up. Why are you hiding yours?? Again, it doesn't sound trustworthy. =/

I really don't know to be perfectly honest with you.

Maybe it's because of boredom that I had some more free time (I should be writing) this week. Maybe it's a bubbling frustration that's been brewing for a while that finally snapped. Seeing friends get attacked every single time by zealots. I understand their plight, I've had friends that lost jobs too, but that doesn't make them any right either.

Truth is, I very well knew from the start that nothing in this cycle will change:
Companies will still keep screwing over artists. Some artists will still act like privileged gatekeepers against the public, and most of the public will still be apathetic to their plight.

Just thought that maybe, just maybe, someone among the three would have not been so stubborn.
As this IS a forum for creatives, the message was targeted there.

As a side note; was quite vocal for artists in the public space, sharing how they can support their locals and Etsy craftsmen like I did. Telling them that they should share to their artist friends preventive measures like Glaze. Just saying that only a vocal minority was openly hostile at people that just wanted to express and share… But I won't lie to you, from their stories over there, it's not looking good, and some artists certainly doesn't make it easy to defend them.

Maybe, just maybe; my old, crusty, uncouth words will just make one artist think twice before laying on the heat on some random Joe or Jane. And that they shouldn't start the conversation with ridicule or hostility. Who knows, they might even turn that one random stranger into a supporter. Maybe, just maybe, one of them actually looks up Glaze on how to protect their works.

Or maybe I'm just a sentient chatbot designed to cause havoc.

And no, I will not be sharing their portfolios or sites. Won't be leading pitchforks to their doorstep just for more harassment, cancellations and doxxing. I've seen what highly opinionated beliefs can do and will do, was surprised at how many they were in the artist space. Also don't care anymore if anyone believes us either. From what I saw with a lot of the replies from both creative and general public forums, none of them is going to budge. The will to stand up for artists that comes off as elitist to the public has waned.

Already given enough crumbs, up to people to look them up. Inquire about personal-trained LoRAs and the open-source projects that use them. Github and Gitlab is crawling with them. You can find proper documentation there. I even posted earlier for people to look up Glaze Cloaking to protect their digital art. Anyone can google that a lot of the early diffusion models are already open-source. It's not one singular, monolithic 'program'. Lots of terminal stuff. Their code is already out in the open, free to check, modify and use for your own benefit. No company has control over it. And people have already made numerous forks and modifications around them already.

None taken, from anyone here. It's all good. Sometimes heated discussions push things forward.

I'm sorry for sounding like singling out specific persons here. I apologize. Could have phrased things a lot better, and with less 'charged' terms. I stand by the contents of what I said, though. They're just ramblings of an old man into the void, or the 'cloud' for this matter. With the acceptance and disappointment that nothing changes based on the replies I've seen from both sides.

Am not usually like this, I swear. Hahaha. Am more the type that would rather ask out people for drinks to iron things out. Call it 'ungraceful crusty aging' when something snaps once or a twice a year.

I think AI won't help artists at all, and just will make easier for big companies to steal the work of others.

It also will be used to spread misinformation and to create a lot of fake news, as it is shown in this article:

bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-684712531

I agree with point 2 and 3 that @Amalockh1
about what they wrote about big companies and the fake news.

There is another big problem that artists / illustrators / writers / games programmers etc
will be facing.

There will be no more clients

I think AI would be awesome for 3d artists if it was to speed up rendering time and by generating particals - clouds - rain - etc anything that would strain the computers core to render. Hair and matching lighting with live action would also be useful. AI can be useful for artists if is it's for personal inspiration, unusual concepts, or even custom references. I do agree using it for posting and claiming it's "your art" is wrong. Best bet-- don't post it! But let's get this straight for all you who follow the band wagon and don't think for yourself. ANYTHING that is put out to the public for free WILL be abused! It is ignorant to think otherwise... AI has been a part of our lives for years now even in small ways - such as; facial recognition, spell checking, web filtering, web searching algorithms and so on... Either you use it to your advantage or not. Tablets and drawing digitally was rejected by artist including myself-- now, it is necessary just to post things online and be competitive in this age. Don't like, it don't use it, if your thinking of using it, I suggest creating your own models and Loras that does not infringe on copyrights like the those free ones online that do steal. Just be smart about it.